Paradon vs Barfly

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 25 May 2005 13:35

*bump*

so that vaska's video thread doesn't get corrupted with spill over commentary from the peanut gallery.

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 25 May 2005 14:42

uniques seem to be a big problem for everyone to agree on. I understand both sides of

same move, different setting surface doesn't change that

or

its a different move, it feels different, setting surface does matter

Personally I would like to believe that paradon and barfly are unique. I think this because I can paradon sort of easily with my flip, but flip barfly is really tough, same with down doubles. If this were the essentially the same move (not unique) why do I have more trouble with barfly?

Actually wait, I guess that kinda helps me in a way. For someone like me who isn't as good can get just as many uniques as someone who is better by just doing paradons and no other harder double downs. Maybe, who really knows.

And if you really want to go into what's unique, why is a move counted as unique for both sides? It's the same move, just with a different foot, as with setting surface doesn't matter, right?

HG · Post by HG » 25 May 2005 16:13

it doesnt matter if its unique or not. If it is unique, it is unique for EVERYONE. That doesnt give anyone an advantage over anyone else. Sure you could argue that some people cant do double downs. But the people who cant double down might be able to duck/dive/zulu/weave while the double downing person cant.

It gives no one an advantage, it all evens out, so there is no point to argue about it

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 25 May 2005 16:19

what are you talking about?

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 25 May 2005 16:35

I'm too apathetic to show you the difference between a variety rewarding scoring system and a unique limiting one.

Basically it matters, but the end result is to get the person with the best game to win, and limit the amount of advantage one player gets for having a few things mastered.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 25 May 2005 16:41

I`m not 100% sure how I stand on this issue, but here`s something I was thinking about, which is making me come closer to falling on the "theyre all the same" side of the fence:

You can hit torque starting on either toe. Do they feel different? Yes, very. The difference in timing and footwork (to me) feels similar to paradon vs. double over down. But in my mind, there is no difference between either toe torque... so paradon and dod, while "feeling" different, are really the same move. It`s not a big leap to go from there and say that they are all the same. I dunno, I was feeling on the fence on this issue until I started thinking about dlos and torques set from different toes... hopefully this helps other people sort out the question in their head.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 25 May 2005 16:50

Ken, consider Smear and toe blur.

Two different tricks, or the same thing.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 25 May 2005 16:53

Yeah, I`ve been pondering that. For some reason, the uptime thing makes it harder for me to decide... but I`m willing to really think about it. With downtime tricks like torque, dlo, and yes, paradons etc, it seems more obvious that, regardless of which toe you start them, they are the same trick.

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 25 May 2005 20:25

C-Fan wrote:
Tsiangkun wrote:
james wrote: I repeat: Set location does not play a part in the determination of a unique core move
Prove it, because I have a whole lot of code that demonstrates that set location is everything in determining uniqueness of strings within strings, moves within strings, and components within moves
I LIKE CAKE!!!

LOUD NOISES!!!

... I hear their periods attract bears... the bears can smell the menstration

Lol for those who havent seen 'The Anchorman', you havent lived, and wont understand what I just wrote...

Anyway, on topic, if setting place does not make moves unique then mirage and pdx mirage are the same move.... dont be stupid!

lasse · Post by **lasse** » 26 May 2005 02:09

How about if 4add (and over 4add) moves which includes two dexes are counted as unique moves when the move seems same but you set it from different locations. It would solve some things (barfly/paradon/ddd/dod).

I havent think this all the way trough yet so maybe it doesnt solve anything

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 26 May 2005 06:03

BalinorNZ said:

Anyway, on topic, if setting place does not make moves unique then mirage and pdx mirage are the same move.... dont be stupid!

and I had already quoted the "IFPA Official Rules of Footbag Sports" early when I said:

Quote:
Unique Move
For the purpose of Composition Judging, a unique move is any move containing an add value whose add components are different from any other move done in that performance. Spin directions and leg direction in dexterity moves are considered different; moves coming from a different set are not unique unless that set forces another add component (i.e. body, in the case of "paradox" moves) to be added

I'll repeat that last part: moves coming from a different set are not unique unless that set forces another add component (i.e. body, in the case of "paradox" moves) to be added

This part of the discussion (paradox moves are unique from their non-paradox counterparts) isn't even contentious, I think, and hasn't really been a focus of the discussion. Careful, Nic, if you don't actually read the discussion and blatantly disregard everything that has already been said on the subject then it might be you who winds up saying something stupid.

max · Post by **max** » 26 May 2005 06:26

so.... in light of what Jon has added

set > same out > same out > op clip (barfly and double over down)

and

set > op out > same out > op clip (paradon and down double down)

are different?

meaning double over down and barfly are not unique but they are both unique from down double down and paradon?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 26 May 2005 07:00

edit: My mistake - I found it.

Personally though I disagree with that definition as it means that nuclear gyro mirage and fairy gyro mirage are the same move (as one random example). Nuclear and fairy sets are definitly unique regardless of if it's an op side move and getting a pdx add or not.

Also is nuclear ss butterfly and barfly the same move? What about symp tapping symp butterfly and dolomite? - I would say not but they have the identical adds and dexterity directions.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 26 May 2005 07:12

A common misunderstanding keeps coming up. Its not coming from what I have added, Max, its resulting from what Ben Jobs added.

What I'm saying is that the rules say that a different setting surface doesn't matter (unless it results in another add component, like paradox), but Job's Notation does distinguish the setting surface. Job's Notation is a useful descriptor of footbag moves, but it is only that, it is not our new rules of judging freestyle

If we apply the rules of the game to Job's Notation, the moves in question (barfly, paradox, DOD and DDD), all four of them, read:

Out-In Dex > Same Out-In Dex > Op Clipper

I've asked this before, but I guess I must keep repeating myself since nobody has ever given me an answer:

What about a hand toss?

Example: In a video I watched of another of Vasek's Shred 30 runs (I wish I could remember the exact video, but I can't, but I don't think it matters) he had already done his Paradon (right leg dexes) and his Barfly (right leg dexes). Then he actually dropped, picked up the bag and hand tossed it to another right leg Double-Over-Down. If every set is unique, does that mean that his hand-toss DOD is unique from both the Barfly and the Paradon? If Barfly is unique from Paradon, but the hand-toss version is not unique from a similar move set from the foot, which one is the hand-toss move the same as? It wouldn't matter if the player in question does both Paradon and Barfly, but, say, for instance, that the player had only done the Barfly and not the Paradon. Would we say that hand-toss DOD is unique because it is equivalent to the Paradon and not the Barfly? This could come up. We ought to know the answer to this before it happens.

If some tricks that are the same except for the setting surface are counted as unique (as many of you say Barfly and Paradon ought to be) and some tricks that are the same except for the setting surface are NOT counted as unique (as almost everybody says that the various versions of Butterfly are not) than this makes issues of the hand-toss confusing. If setting surface does not make a move unique, than there is no confusion.

Another example: I've been practicing hitting my Paradox Torque from a Flapper stall lately. If I did that move (from the flapper) and also a Paradox Torque from the clipper, are they unique? I can tell you with great certainty: they feel different. It is also certain that the Paradox Torque from the Flapper stall is much harder to do. Does it make it a unique move? I don't think so. Just because a move feels different or is harder when done a certain way doesn't make it a different move. It just means that you did the same move but that you did it the hard way.

I DARE YOU ALL TO FINALLY ANSWER MY QUESTION:

Does a hand-toss make a move unique from the same move set from the foot? Do you think it should be?

And while you're at it, are my flapper > paradox torques unique from my clipper > paradox torques?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 26 May 2005 07:37

Since it appears that there are set out IFPA rules I think this isn't the place to discuss how the rules should be (at least right at this moment) but rather how you can interpret those rules>

Unique Move
For the purpose of Composition Judging, a unique move is any move containing an add value whose add components are different from any other move done in that performance. Spin directions and leg direction in dexterity moves are considered different; moves coming from a different set are not unique unless that set forces another add component (i.e. body, in the case of "paradox" moves) to be added

So according this - the things that are important are - add components, spin direction and leg direction. There is no mention in the rules of x dex or x spin so we have to assume they do not exist.

barfly: [dex][dex][xbd][del] - no spins and the dexes are both out to in dexterities.
double over down: [dex][dex][xbd][del] - no spins same dexes
paradon: [dex][dex][xbd][del] - no spins same dexes
down double down: [dex][dex][xbd][del] - no spins same dexes
hand set double down: [dex][dex][xbd][del] - no spins same dexes

So these moves are not unique

flapper set pdx torque: [dex][bod][bod][xbd][del]
clipper set pdx torque: [dex][bod][bod][xbd][del]

Since the spins and dexes are in the same direction these moves are not unique

Blurry whirl: [dex][dex][bod][xbd][del] - both dexes in to out - no spins.
blurry drifter: [dex][dex][bod][xbd][del] - both dexes in to out - no spins.
frantic ducking clipper: [dex][dex][bod][xbd][del] - both dexes in to out - no spins.

So none of these moves are unique.

Now I have a challenge. Somebody show me why the rules show that my last example is not the case. Don't tell me how you think it should be - show me in the rules. They seem pretty straight forward to me:

A unique move has to have different add components or a different direction of dexterities or spins.

Those are the only things that constitute a unique move.

One could even argue that eggbeater and reaper are the same move since they have the same add components: dex dex del and all the dexes are out to in.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 26 May 2005 08:06

Don't be fatuous, Jeremy. Are we having a serious discussion or not?

The issue is clear, despite what has not yet been added to the rules:
are moves with the same dexterity (or ducking, spinning, etc.) components unique from one another when their only diffence is the setting surface or not?

You can muddy the waters by discrediting the rule book all you want, but the question remains the same.

Now, please start treating this more seriously.

ps: you didn't really answer my questions: does the hand-toss make a move unique from a foot-set, and DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 26 May 2005 08:11

Sorry for the double post but something else I realised about the official definition of a unique. Moves hit on the opposite side may well not be unique. It really depends on what is meant by "direction" when talking about the dexterity. There's also no mention of if it matters about which leg doing the dexes.

This means that Vaseks shred 30 score in the footjam comp could be as low as 202.4 (which is still damn high considering how hard it makes hitting uniques...

)

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 26 May 2005 08:21

Of course we're having a serious discussion. But are we discussing how the rules are or how they should be?

Personally I think the rules are wrong - not just on that issue but on a number of issues relating to freestyle and only a few days ago I applied to join the IFC so that I can make an effort to change those rules.

I know I'm taking a ridiculous view on the rules - but if the rules were written well I wouldn't be able to do that. The rules at all IFPA tournaments should be exactly the same. You look at any professional sport and that is the case. The rules in professional sports are not open to loop holes or different interpretations. The most important thing in writing any kind of law is making the direct meaning of it clear. Clearly this is not the case.

So I think it's pointless to discuss the way things currently are. The way things are is up to the person running the tournament - there clearly is no "correct" answer - except to take the rules as they are written - which is that a unique move is a move with different add components or different direction of dexterity or spinning.

What we should really be discussing is "what is your definition of unique?"

I think that's a pretty hard question to answer in an succinct manner. My best solution having tried a number of different ways of defining what I think "unique" should mean was to have a definition as well as a section b. which listed all the moves I could think of that didn't fit the definition and were either unique or not unique depending on the move. I'll find the definition I believe is best and post it in this forum.

edit: and to answer your question - I would say that hand toss set double down is not unique to paradon, barfly, double over down or down double down for the reason that I don't think "hand tossing" should count as a different set - it should still count as a unique if a double down on that side hasn't been hit and the adds and contacts should still count - but a hand toss set should be considered a "blank" - ie the set is any set. - so as soon as a downtime move of the same style has been hit hand tosses to that down time move are not unique.

Shredster · Post by **Shredster** » 26 May 2005 08:36

Who's in charge of making rules standard anyways?

Why don't we change them, not discuss the old ones. Even if we change the old rules slightly, let's make them more descriptive and eliminate the loops holes and discrepencies within.

I wont stick my opinion in because I think someone with more experience should be the one to set standards.

<b>Html has the World Wide Web consortium. They SET STANDARDS. Lets do the same huh? I say discuss the old rules only to verify what parts are bad, then create new rules that eliminate loop holes.</b>

Easier said than done, but lets give it a try.

wolfpac444 · Post by **wolfpac444** » 26 May 2005 08:51

Jon, I thought I had given you an answer to your question in another thread. Anyways, here are my thoughts.

Does a hand-toss make a move unique from a move set from the same foot? Well, it makes it different so I guess you could say it makes it unique.

However, the real question is: should we reward that differentness with "unique" status in Shred :30 competition. I don't think so. It doesn't increase variety within the competition and makes dropping more beneficial. I don't think any hand-set move should be counted as unique regardless of what follows the set.

modified

Paradon vs Barfly

Are Paradon and Barfly the same move?