Bush: Amnesty report 'absurd'

[junkyardjew]

arent people held in guantanamo bay for terrorist actions?

Maybe. Who knows? Maybe they should be given trials so we can find out, instead of being held indefinitely as "enemy combatants" so that they are exempt from the geneva conventions.

America has provided an inconceivable amount of aid to the world and freed so many nations from tyrants and all we ever ask for are graves for our dead.

Americans have installed more tyrants than they have ever dethroned, and I can think of several examples of democratically elected governments overthrown by the american government (and that's just in south america).

Have you ever seen a map of where america has military bases in the world? It might surprise you, and provide some indication of why america is so disliked.

Also, I would read up on the fiscal policies that catapulted most of the industrialized nations of the world to power (try googling "protectionism" to start) then read about the fiscal policies enforced by the WTO and World Bank in return for american "aid". Start learning about "free-trade", capitalism in relations to 'globalization', the american doctrine of Manifest Destiny... try picking up some chomsky or other easy to read 'leftist' critical thinker, then reaply these concepts to your worldview and america's place in it. how about debt releif? How about cripling interest on loans to pay the interest on loans, all tied to massive privatization, which has worked SO well on the california utilities market...

Anyway, I'm sure people are always going off on rants like this when you bring up your worldview (I'm talking to slapdash21 and shredstylez here), but seriously, try reading a little political science and a LOT of history before you decide what is right and what is wrong. not in a condescending way or anything, but I think it might blow your mind.

[junkyardjew]

No offense to anyone but everytime someone brings up bush or some wacked oil conspiracy i feel like punching them

Oh yeah, I forgot - read up on the Project for the New American Century - the list of boardmembers and bush's cabinet members is eerily similar, and they've been advocating for an invasion of Iraq since the late nineties...

[Jeremy]

America has... freed so many nations from tyrants and all we ever ask for are graves for our dead.

Name one country that you have successfully freed. When I say successfully I mean - you "freeing" them led to peace and prosperity - not war and poverity. One country - it should be easy if there are so many.

[sorin]

America has... freed so many nations from tyrants and all we ever ask for are graves for our dead.

So much pathos, it should be engraved on a monument to the fallen

About the dead soldiers, check it out who the soldiers are. You will find that a great majority of soldiers(not officers)are of Latin descent or blacks, and some 15% whites from trailor parks. That is the way your government gets rid of young potential troublemakers, promise schooling, give out uniforms, drill, send to a desert/hills/jungle, kill/torture some locals if you feel like it, defend uncle sam's interests, if killed make a hero

[sPinko-Mania]

So if it's claimed that America is a lone superpower, or even has more power and resources in general than other nations, why cant America do whatever the hell it wants?

Think about it. Seriously, not a flame.

the point is, it can, and its a miracle that our nation engages in as much global aid and interest as it does. everyone focuses so much on who America is apparently hurting, but America REALLY does participate in a ridiculous amount of aid to foreign nations, and accepts thousands of immigrants from other nations as well.

The US does give a lot of aid, but in comparison to how much money the US government gets overall in taxes it's really nothing special, quite a way down on the list of % of GDP last I remember.

also other nations need to focus on their own problems rather than bashing US foreign relations to OTHER countries. its crazyness.

I think the problem with this is that people bash US foreign policy, because US foreign policy tends to bash others...Literally y'know.

[Jeremy]

List of aid per person per country

1. Luxembourg $352.30 per person
2. Norway $307.95 per person
3. Denmark $302.72 per person
4. Netherlands $216.71 per person
5. Sweden $191.48 per person
6. Switzerland $150.30 per person
7. France $104.68 per person
8. United Kingdom $74.88 per person
9. Belgium $74.25 per person
10. Finland $73.01 per person
11. Ireland $72.11 per person
12. Japan $71.53 per person
13. Germany $67.96 per person
14. Austria $50.07 per person
15. Australia $45.30 per person
16. Canada $40.36 per person
17. Spain $33.07 per person
18. Portugal $26.82 per person
19. New Zealand $25.23 per person
20. United States $23.76 per person
21. Italy $17.24 per person
22. Lesotho $0 per person
23. Saudi Arabia $0 per person
24. Korea, South $0 per person


Per $ GDP

1. Denmark $1.04 per $100
2. Norway $0.93 per $100
3. Netherlands $0.79 per $100
4. Sweden $0.73 per $100
5. Luxembourg $0.72 per $100
6. Switzerland $0.47 per $100
7. France $0.40 per $100
8. United Kingdom $0.29 per $100
9. Finland $0.28 per $100
10. Germany $0.25 per $100
11. Belgium $0.25 per $100
12. Japan $0.24 per $100
13. Ireland $0.24 per $100
14. Austria $0.18 per $100
15. Australia $0.17 per $100
16. Spain $0.15 per $100
17. Canada $0.13 per $100
18. Portugal $0.13 per $100
19. New Zealand $0.12 per $100
20. Italy $0.06 per $100
21. United States $0.06 per $100
22. Lesotho $0 per $100
23. Saudi Arabia $0 per $100
24. Korea, South $0 per $100

Total aid given:

1. Japan $9.1 billion (1999)
2. United States $6.9 billion (1997)
3. France $6.3 billion (1997)
4. Germany $5.6 billion (1998)
5. United Kingdom $4.5 billion (2000)
6. Netherlands $3.5 billion (2000 est.)
7. Sweden $1.7 billion (1997)
8. Denmark $1.63 billion (1999)
9. Norway $1.4 billion (1998)
10. Spain $1.33 billion (1999)
11. Canada $1.3 billion (1999)
12. Switzerland $1.1 billion (1995)
13. Italy $1 billion (2002 est.)
14. Australia $894 million (FY 99/00)
15. Belgium $764 million (1997)
16. Austria $410 million (2000)
17. Finland $379 million (2001)
18. Ireland $283 million (2001)
19. Portugal $271 million (1995)
20. Luxembourg $160 million (1999)
21. New Zealand $99.7 million
22. Lesotho ODA $4.4 million
23. Saudi Arabia pledged $100 million in 1993 to fund reconstruction of Lebanon; since 2000, Saudi Arabia has committed $307 million for assistance to the Palestinians; pledged $240 million to development in Afghanistan
24. Korea, South ODA $200 million


Expenditure on military (total)

1. United States $276.7 billion (FY99 est.)
2. China $55.91 billion (FY02)
3. France $46.5 billion (2000)
4. Japan $39.52 billion (FY02)
5. Germany $38.8 billion (2002)
6. United Kingdom $31.7 billion (2002)
7. Italy $20.2 billion (2002)
8. Saudi Arabia $18.3 billion (FY00)
9. Brazil $13.408 billion (FY99)
10. Korea, South $13,094.3 million (FY02)
11. India $11.52 billion (FY02)
12. Australia $11.39 billion (FY02)
13. Iran $9.7 billion (FY00)
14. Israel $8.97 billion (FY02)
15. Spain $8.6 billion (2002)
16. Turkey $8.1 billion (2002 est.)
17. Canada $7.861 billion (FY01/02)
18. Taiwan $7.574 billion (FY02)
19. Netherlands $6.5 billion (FY00/01 est.)
20. Greece $6.12 billion (FY99/00 est.)
21. Korea, North $5,217.4 million (FY02)
22. Singapore $4.47 billion (FY01 est.)
23. Sweden $4.395 billion (FY01)
24. Argentina $4.3 billion (FY99)
25. Egypt $4.04 billion (FY99)

source: www.nationmaster.com

[BainbridgeShred]

If I wasn't so good looking I'd ask Russia to nuke us.

[BainbridgeShred]

its so funny how you put so much stock in one tributary of what Darwin said regarding evolution of animals yet regard the idea of survival of the fittest as unaccpetable and wrong

Survival of the fittest is wrong... You can pretty much look at any case and say, "If you're following your instincts, you're doing the wrong thing."

All culture is is an attempt to break down man's nature, once necesary, now perverted.

[blackcrown]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&c ... amnesty_dc

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/usa-summary-eng

[blackcrown]

"It's absurd. It's an absurd allegation."

[Tsiangkun]

You can see it in his face, that man hates freedom. You can practically hear the screams, "Stay Back, I don't want any more freedom today, Lock me up please "

[Tsiangkun]

So if it's claimed that America is a lone superpower, or even has more power and resources in general than other nations, why cant America do whatever the hell it wants?

Lets suppose that is true.


Now, do you believe the president derives his powers of war from the approval of congress ?

Do you believe congress should be representative of the will of the people ?

Do you believe the will of the people was manipulated through lies, recently exposed in great detail in the Downing street memo and follow up reporting on the memo ?

Neither Bush's administration or Tony's deny the authenticity of the memo. The source of Bush's power to engage the world's sole super power was manipulated through deceit and lies.

Should the world's sole super power be able to engage in "whatever the hell it wants", when the sole super power is no longer bound to flex it's muscle to execute the will of the people, but rather is being used to execute the will of the president ?

[slapdash21]

i cant post much in general for a few days, because my life is fucked over, BUT.

yes, i believe the president answers to congress, and YES, i do believe the decisions of the congress represent the will of the general public. so eliminating the middle-man, for all intensive purposes, the president is intended to represent the people and what they would have done in the country and in respect to other countries. i do NOT believe that the will of the people is being manipulated whatsoever, as evidenced by the fact that bush was re-elected by a majority vote. and this wasnt at a time when people were confused about what his intentions were...why would he be re-elected if he wasnt truly supported in his ideas? and dont tell me its only based on religion, thats bullcrap, and dont claim he STOLE the election, also bullcrap.

[slapdash21]

sorry for the double, but i wanted to post this yesterday or so, but i forgot until now....

I've studied a lot of international politics - not because I had to - I've only ever studied it in school for half a year - but because it's something I'm passionate about. I often watch 3 hours of current events in a day and read 2 or 3 different newspapers. I can tell you the leaders of all the G8 countries and probably when they came to power. I go to lectures in my spare time to listen to international politicians and analyists speak. I've met and had long conversations with many politicians - both Australian and International - inlcuding (for a random example) the leader of the opposition in Pakistan.

just to let you know, this makes you seem extremely condescending and obnoxious.

[Tsiangkun]

I've studied a lot of international politics - not because I had to - I've only ever studied it in school for half a year - but because it's something I'm passionate about. I often watch 3 hours of current events in a day and read 2 or 3 different newspapers. I can tell you the leaders of all the G8 countries and probably when they came to power. I go to lectures in my spare time to listen to international politicians and analyists speak. I've met and had long conversations with many politicians - both Australian and International - inlcuding (for a random example) the leader of the opposition in Pakistan.

Actually that's Jeremy, not Tsia.

[Tsiangkun]

iwhy would he be re-elected if he wasnt truly supported in his ideas? and dont tell me its only based on religion, thats bullcrap, and dont claim he STOLE the election, also bullcrap.

Because the truthwasn't told Force wasn't a last resort, and the people knew none the better. There was no WMD threat, but the people didn't know the truth that Blair and Bush knew.

If you believe a lie to be true, then it's not suprising. But to know the truth and believe a lie . . .

[Jeremy]

just to let you know, this makes you seem extremely condescending and obnoxious.

That's your opinion and you're intitled to it. You think the US could do whatever it wants in the world. I know for a fact that even George W Bush disagrees with you - so frankly - because of my opinion on your knowledge about international politics - I'm really not phased what you think of me in that regard.

[junkyardjew]

as evidenced by the fact that bush was re-elected by a majority vote.

okay, there's a few things here. Now, I know that whenever you reply we jump all over you, and this isn't a debate that can be undertaken with much civility, but I think we should give it a try.

firstly, bush was elected by a very very slim majority. I believe it was one of the slimmest in american history. secondly, american voters were VERY confused about the issues, mainly thanks the the duplicity of BOTH the republican and democratic parties.

Bush campained on a platform of keeping america safe from 'terrorists', and yet those most directly affected by the terrorist actions within america (ie, people who live in new york city and new york state) voted overwhelmingly for Kerry. Interesting?

What's really interesting is reading about what people believe depending on which media source they most watched. people who watched a lot of fox were much more likely to belive a) that WMDs had been found in iraq and b) that iraqi's had flown the planes into the twin towers.

On a side note, ya'll should look into the Saudi connection. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi's, Saudi money funded osama bin laden, Saudi's continue to fund terrorists operating within iraq... and Bush held hands with the crown prince on TV the other week. may oh my what a tangled web they weave.

Anyway, I don't believe that a majority of american citizens believe that Americans have the right to act as an imperial power, subjugating nations all over the world to their will in order to maintain their tenuous hold on super-powerhood. No country is that full of assholes. people in america are deliberately misinformed by the government and the media (who are owned by the same people making money of the war. conflict of interest?)

[slapdash21]

I've studied a lot of international politics - not because I had to - I've only ever studied it in school for half a year - but because it's something I'm passionate about. I often watch 3 hours of current events in a day and read 2 or 3 different newspapers. I can tell you the leaders of all the G8 countries and probably when they came to power. I go to lectures in my spare time to listen to international politicians and analyists speak. I've met and had long conversations with many politicians - both Australian and International - inlcuding (for a random example) the leader of the opposition in Pakistan.

Actually that's Jeremy, not Tsia.

ack, my bad.

last resort is all opinion. and perhaps the american people should all do as much indepedant research as you do, and form their own opinions...but they dont, so if you are saying the american people are so gullible and unintelligent...
no hard proof of WMDs was found before bush's re-election (or after, i sadly but willingly admit), and the situation hardly changed after the re-election at all...its not like suddenly the people realized we were at war for a questionable cause.
i think we are debating over a really insignificant point. technically america could do a lot of things other countries wouldnt like, and there probably would be reprocussions, so obviously america ISNT going to do that. on a practical level, doing anything real major would be extremely risky, which is something that displeases me, because perhaps what i meant is based on power, wealth, military strength, aid to other countries, and prestige, america SHOULD be able to accomplish a lot more than it does, both for the overall good (in my opinion) or even for negative endevours. (sp?)

That's your opinion and you're intitled to it.

damn right...i am entitled to my opinion, and you to yours

[Jeremy]

This is the main reason that it's stupidly obvious that the US cannot do whatever it wants. It's clear that you aren't going to research it yourself. I found it truely amazing and sad that anybody could believe such a thing and while I'm sure you would have benifited a great deal by finding out the answers for yourself I couldn't see that happening and wanted you to understand why it is. I went into some depth - but really it's a very very simple arguement. Also note that this is clearly not an attack on the US at all - I'm sure that most people on either side of politics would agree with the main arguement - clearly every single US President has.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why the United States of American Government cannot “do whatever it wants”

The United States of America is the most powerful nation in the world and has been for a long time. For much of the second half of the twentieth century and now in the early twenty first century the US has been a strong force in driving its own political agendas. It is probably accurate to say that there has never in the history of the planet been a nation as powerful as the United States. It has been suggested that the United States of America is so powerful that its government can choose to do whatever it wants in the world. This is only accurate in the sense that their government has that freedom. It is clear that should the US government attempt such actions there would be dramatic consequences leading to the downfall of the United States.

Before this question can be fully answered it is best to understand the history of world powers. Through out history nations have looked to expand in a quest to control the world. The most important thing to remember about those nations in the context of this essay is that none of them exist anymore. Perhaps the greatest nation from the past is that of the Roman Empire. At its peak the Roman Empire controlled all the lands surrounding the Mediterranean – From England to Egypt to the edge of the Black Sea. This is an achievement no other empire or nation has ever accomplished. Yet despite its power – the Roman Empire crumbled and eventually fell. There were many reasons why Rome fell which do not need to be discussed here. The fall took hundreds of years before it was complete and there cannot be seen any true beginning and end. However one of the major issues that led to the downfall was the economy. It is clear that a nation cannot continue to be powerful if it cannot trade. The military anarchy that resulted during the end of Rome and the inhospitable neighbours led to an economic downfall of Rome – that led in turn to the complete downfall.

Another Nation worth looking at from history is early twentieth century Russia. At this time Russia was a monarchy in which Tsars had ultimate power. Many of the common people at this time believed the Tsars to be like gods. However due to economic problems as well as a slow rise in eduction, people began to realise that things were unfair. Added to this was the general disrespect for the people shown by the Tsars – such as the Bloody Sunday massacre of 1905. Because the Tsars behaved as if they could do whatever they wanted and continue their hold on power – they were overthrown by a popular movement. A movement that turned out to be much more powerful when united than the Tsars were.


The United States of America is a very powerful nation. With out doubt the most powerful nation in the world. However – just like the Tsars of Russia there can also be no doubt that if enough nations were driven to war against the USA – the USA would lose. At this stage there are very few nations that would like to go to war against the USA and none that would. However like the peasants and working class of Russia – if the USA treats the nations of the world as expendable and uses them only for their own purposes one cannot doubt that eventually international opinion would turn on the US.

It is important to address the point of why the USA would lose a war against the world. The United States of America has an enormous trade deficit. It has about $1,500,000,000,000 worth of imports and $800,000,000,000 worth of exports. That means the US imports almost twice as much as it exports. The thing that drives the US economy most is oil. Oil is used in some regard in almost every industry in the United States – mainly for fuel for transport but also for many plastics and other materials. The United States produces approximately 7.8 million barrels per day but consumes approximately 19.65 million barrels per day. You can see that that’s a colossal difference. One of the major battle fields in a global war against the United States would not be country of the United States but the oil fields that the US relies on. The US would be forced to protect its entire oil reserves, as well as its national borders. Coupled with that would be the presumable freezing of all US assets in foreign countries and a withdrawal of all foreign investment. It is inevitable that this would lead to an enormous economic collapse. The fact is that the US relies on many other nations around the world – it is far from being self dependant. If the might of the United States of America armed forces cannot bring peace to small and poor nations like Iraq and Vietnam – how could it possibly do so with all its trading partners? From the example of Rome – it is clear that any nation wishing to control the world must preserve its economy – it is the economy that keeps the nation powerful.

This is why the US does not do whatever it wants. It is why the US government spends hours negotiation and compromising. It is why the US does not always get what it wants and why it doesn’t use force to get what it wants. The decisions the US make are decisions that are usually in the best interests of the US. Making decisions in the best interests of the US includes not pissing everybody off so much they go to war against the US. Because the administration realises that they are reliant on many nations around the world and it clearly does not have the power to fight wars against all those nations at once.

Sources:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
http://www.socialistworld.net/
www.crystalinks.com/rome.html