The end of Greek nomenclature

james · Post by **james** » 09 Jun 2005 15:02

Ok, all this common sense might be a little confusing for some, but please bear with me for the sake of footbag. As the topic name suggests, the aim of this post is to abolish forever the use of geek, uhh I mean Greek nomenclature from the illustrious sport of freestyle footbag.
My first objection is a purely aesthetic one and as such is quite irrelevant so I’ll get it out of the way.
I can only shudder in disgust when I see the alphas, betas and gammas splattered around respectable footbag moves like puke on your best pair of docks. It’s hideously horrendous and ridiculously laughable both at the same time, quite a feat. Not only that but there is only a small minority (far, far less than half) of players that use it (with reckless abandon I must add). It came in where it was not (and still not) needed and has managed to overstay it’s unwelcome like a rabid baboon in your pantry. Don’t fix what ain’t broke, a wise piece of advice every one of our gnarled grandpas has bestowed upon us. This argument closely resembles that of Ockham’s Razor, which basically tells us to eliminate the unnecessary. This alone should be enough, but I know it is not for most people so I’ll go even further and explain several other reasons for it’s uselessness.

The first issue is one Kevin just brought up recently about not needing names for symposium sets, which is of course wrong. We can do this on the basis that names for symposium sets make the move names shorter.
Take your example: Alpha hopping butterfly or ‘popping’ butterfly (I don’t like the name popping someone (Josh) please come up with something better). Which is simpler? A monkey could figure that out, all you need is to be able to count to three. This works for all symp sets. Flailing mirage or Alpha atomic mirage? Backside atomsmasher or beta atomic mirage? It’s just a useless mouthful with G.n. (Greek nomenclature). Not only that, but G.n, fails to give a bunch of respectable sets the respect they deserve.

The only reason some people seem to think that bs/fs doesn’t work is because they are not using it properly. First of all the only time bs/fs is required/desired is when there is a composite move (set + move) that already has a nickname and is lacking any symposium. Take smear for instance: when you do it symp you can say pixie symp mirage, which is a bit of a mouthful, just as beta pixie mirage is, though the former is still vastly more appealing, or you can say backside smear. Mmmm, how much nicer was that to say? Infinitely.
That is the sole use of bs/fs, to simplify composite move names and it does its job very nicely. Confusion arises with its misuse. First there is a very basic principle when dealing with symposium moves: There can only ever be a maximum of TWO symposiums in any move; one in the uptime component and one in the downtime component. This is the factor upon which naming should be based around, that’s why there is a frontside for a symp in the set and a backside for a symp in the move. The amount of dexes does not matter because they are already (or should be) specified by their respective component names, that’s what they’re there for.

Another important thing to keep in mind is that a downtime move cannot have more than one type of symposium in it (excluding rooted). However, there are a number of sets (uptime) with multiple symposium variations. Each of these variations is a completely unique set. Take sailing for instance. You can have hyper atomic or pixie flailing. The confusion occurs when you use fs/bs to denote the symp in the sailing set.
So if you have frontside sailing whirl there is ambiguity as to which part of the sailing is symposium. Same with backside sailing whirl, because it could either refer to the sailing set or the whirl itself.
There are two things that can be done about this. Either the fs/bs in the cases of multi-symp sets always refer to the set; i.e. you’d have frontside sailing whirl or frontside sailing symp whirl, and backside sailing whirl or backside sailing symp whirl, OR you can have a name for the two symp sailing sets. This is clearly the most desirable option.
I believe slaying is pixie flailing and I think hyper atomic has been named as well. What’s easier? Slaying symp mirage or beta gamma sailing mirage? Come on, it’s sooo obvious. The simpler and more concise (yes that’s right, I’ll get to that) way to do it is naming the symp set. It’s that simple. You don’t have to start counting dexes in your head to figure out what a move looks like; each name specifies exactly what is being done. Slaying….BAM you know what that is, then symp mirage. The same thing goes for frantic or any other multi-symp set. It’s MORE concise than G.n because it actually reflects the nature of the components in the move, unlike in G.n, which simply points to any of the dexes, there is no function to it. It is does not give you any information about the nature or theory of the move.
So here’s a quick sum up of my points and the simplest system for symp notation:

1)Fs/bs is only used for nicknames of composite moves (set + move) lacking symposium (move names with symposium are already clear and simple enough).
2)All sets have their own name-->eliminates ambiguity from improper fs/bs usage.
3)End of story.

I guarantee that there is not one instance where G.n produces a simpler name than with the way I’ve just outlined (the way I assumed things were working because all the knowledge for it already exists) and if there is (of which I highly doubt) it still wouldn't make a difference because this benefits of this system far outweigh those of G.n
So Ockham’s Razor is working on two levels to prove me right…the first is that the fs/bs method with set names is simpler and the second is that G.n is an unnecessary addition to footbag theory. You can even forget about the Razor because everything I’ve just said makes complete and perfect sense, it’s self-proving.

This system works, and works better.

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 09 Jun 2005 15:18

I agree.
But the g.n. system is oh so under used. I think if anything it will just die out and down the road people will get a little reminiscent chucle if someone ever uses it.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 09 Jun 2005 15:58

okay, I read that "common sense" block of text. Now read this.

In any trick, any dex can be symposium. Using the greek alphabet we can denote which dex was symposium, alpha=first, beta=second, and so on.

This also allows things like multisymposium moves to be donoted with ease, for example.
Beta - Delta Shooting voodoo.

I would explain that, but it explains itself, amazing.

Oh, and greek works for more than just symposium.

Alpha Gamma Muted Beta Symposium GnarlyTrick

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 09 Jun 2005 16:30

I agree it has its uses (like in Camerons obscure examples), but I also agree that backside and frontside are a lot more accessible terms and I will use them unless completely otherwise confusing (ie: MOST moves).

Even in the previous example, unless you're doing the first dex in the shooting symposium (even more obscure), you could have described this move more accessibly as full symp shooting blur -- I think this description is more readily understandable. I believe most people would assume the symposium in the most common dexterities (ie: alpha/beta/gamma wouldn't be necessary unless a misunderstanding arose).

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 09 Jun 2005 17:01

I find the Greek system so much more civilised. It immediately points out which dexes are symposium without the need for any explanations. I really don’t care about the alluring nature of a name – but about the understandability. There are two kinds of names – there are the technical names and the given names. For example “witchdoctor” can be a “beta atomsmasher”. The Greek system only applies to technical names – A technical name is simply a short way of explaining exactly what a move is – it’s not an attempt to make the name appealing.

james · Post by **james** » 09 Jun 2005 17:43

Cameron: beta-delta shooting voodoo? Are you saying there are more than two symposiums in that move? Like four? Because shooting voodoo already shows the symposiums quite accurately and there can't be anymore symp in that move...You made it more confusing than ever...and the second dex in shooting isn't symp....
And your 'any dex in any move can be symposium' statement is wrong. A move is exactly what it is...A dlo can only be symp on the first dex...and don't try and swindle me with rooted catches, that is a different concept from symp and hardly used in practice (sadly). The voodoo-massacre-slaughter-miraging flail group can have their symp in exactly one place.
You can't just mish mash uptime and downtime dexes together like that, it's not practical. There is a clear divide between sets and core moves and it must be maintained in footbag theory.

Jeremy, understandability is vastly increased with the 'current' system. That was one of the points I was making in my tiresome post. You say the Greek system is only for technical names...why bother? The current system is better for that too.
Witchdoctor: backside atomsmasher or atomic symp mirage. The means already exist to describe them succinctly, why add a third, unneccessary term/s? Footbag nomenclature is a mouthful as it is.

Post by **Allan** » 09 Jun 2005 18:32

Holy Shit you guys are geeks!!

sampotter · Post by **sampotter** » 09 Jun 2005 19:01

Professor James, breaking it down.

Iain · Post by **Iain** » 09 Jun 2005 19:46

I did have some things to say to disagree with you, but then i read your sig james. Sorry for even thinking about challenging you oh leading authority on footbag. Please don't sever my legs from my body for using shoe goo and a floppy bag.

beta smear vs backside smear....awwwww fuck it. I don't like either of those names so i'll just start calling it a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious smear. I hope that's OK with you.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 09 Jun 2005 20:12

Any of the dexes in any move can be symposium.

Shooting voodoo already denotes symposium in the voodoo, as the definition of voodoo is paradox SYMPOSIUM blur (beta-delta shooting voodoo is redundant, but still makes sense).

Shooting could easily be frontside (pogo atomic), voodoo could easily be double symp (downtime reverse atom-bomb-esque), shooting could easily be double symp (pogo-flailing), paradox blur could easily be symposium only in the first dex (symposium quasi mirage).

To not understand that any dexterity can be symposium is misunderstanding. Legovers and blenders can technically be symposium, regardless of controversy of style -- any dexterity can be symposium.

mosher · Post by **mosher** » 09 Jun 2005 20:34

This is so dumb.

The FS/BS system closes so many doors needlessly.

You tried to make the fact that GN clearly and logically points to which dex is symp look like a bad thing.

That's so silly!

All FS/BS does is thrust the uptime and downtime components into needless ambiguity!

Why are you trying to force a step backwards James?

What is a backside symp pixie downtime miraging mirage?

Is the first mirage symposium or the second one?

Who knows with stupid FS/BS!

You made ZERO points with any clout in your effort to convince us that the greek system is flawed.

It tells you exactly which dexterity is symposium. What the fuck is wrong with that?

You don't like saying greek words??? that's the dumbest reason in the history of ever!

Sorry James, you promised me that I would be convinced but you lied to me. I am VERY convinced that you made no sense and wasted your time.
Don't try to make our sport dumber.

PS this is so silly that I am almost willing to guess that this is all a big joke that James is pulling because it's so nonsensical. Oh well, even logic masters have their occasional slips.

professor · Post by **professor** » 09 Jun 2005 20:54

It doesn't matter to me if someone spits out a bunch of greek letters before a move because I'll just say...what?

Then they'll waste some more time explaining what they meant.

The Greek system has its place and if you don't like it, don't use it. And if somebody starts speaking it and you don't like it, just make them explain it to you using normal english.

I mean, you can still shred while someone's talking to you, so it doesn't take any of your time away.

B_Man · Post by **B_Man** » 09 Jun 2005 21:08

Firstly, I think by saying it in it's TRUE, CORRECT FORM as frontside symposium and backside symposium is more of a mouthful then just saying alpha, beta, gamma, etc.

A move is exactly what it is...A dlo can only be symp on the first dex

You are totally contradicting yourself when you say that James. With that mindset and knowing exactly how fs/bs works...

Backside Symposium Sailing Eggbeater

Backside, as you are well aware of, refers to the last dex of a trick. In that case, the Legover in the Eggbeater is symposium. This is totally viable but it goes against what you are stating. Since most people *very very rarely* ever do such tricks then the concept of backside symposium does not work in this case, as it would just cause MORE confusion as to which dex is symposium. Does it make sense? With that reasoning either you or the concept of fs/bs is, dare I say, wrong.

In my humble opinion, saying fs and bs ONLY makes perfect sense when you are dealing with TWO DEXTERITY TRICKS. Frontside Smear. Alright, he did a rooted Pixie set. Backside Dimwalk - Oh, Pixie Symp Butterfly, that's stylie yet Anssi will hate you for it (

). FS and BS can not point out dexterities between dexterities.

Leave Alpha, Beta, Gamma to the triple and quad dexes because it works. Who the fuck cares if you have to chew your tonque in saying it? I mean honestly, with your reasoning we may as well call every uptime/downtime core trick a different name when you make it symposium and we all know that would just be a waste of time.

brian relly · Post by **brian relly** » 09 Jun 2005 21:09

mosher wrote:What is a backside symp pixie downtime miraging mirage?

Is the first mirage symposium or the second one?

Who knows with stupid FS/BS!

Logically, there are only two dexes in this move that would/could be made symposium. So BS Pixie [downtime] Miraging Mirage would imply that the symp takes place on the last miraging dex. FS Pixie Miraging Mirage would imply that the symp takes place on the first downtime miraging dex.

If you really must get fancy about it, and want to make the set "symposium" (AKA Rooted), you would call it Hyper [downtime] Miraging Mirage, because "Hyper" is the word used for a rooted pixie set. You could even compound these to say Hyper BS Miraging Mirage. That's a cool move. I bet you could hit it, Tom.

Really really simple.

And yeah, Greek nomenclature sounds dumb.

Edit:

Backside Symposium Sailing Eggbeater

Backside, as you are well aware of, refers to the last dex of a trick. In that case, the Legover in the Eggbeater is symposium. This is totally viable but it goes against what you are stating. Since most people *very very rarely* ever do such tricks then the concept of backside symposium does not work in this case, as it would just cause MORE confusion as to which dex is symposium. Does it make sense? With that reasoning either you or the concept of fs/bs is, dare I say, wrong.

Why in the hell is anyone going to assume that the last dex of the eggbeater (legover) is going to be symposium? I mean, seeing as how it CAN'T be symposium. Just because we're arguing over which is the simpler nomenclature doesn't mean we can assume everyone will suspend all notion(s) of common sense when dealing with it.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 09 Jun 2005 21:38

ok I have one:

pixie symposium paradon swirl.

Is that frontside or backside?

I'm presuming you've seen a video of either Vasek or Felix hitting the move. The point is - is the paradon uptime or downtime? - is it a pixie symp paradon set or is it a pixie set with a downtime symp paradon.

I really think you can't clearly divide that move into uptime and downtime - hence frontside or backside don't work - or maybe you can use both

- the point is that either is misleading because they suggest that the move is hit with the symp dexes either uptime or downtime. beta pixie paradon swirl does not have this problem...

brian relly · Post by **brian relly** » 09 Jun 2005 21:55

There isn't even a need for FS/BS OR G.n in that move. There's only one dex (well, two, the double down) that can be symposium (minus the set, but if that is the case, you call it Hyper Paradon Swirl).
If you're trying to say the paradon would be uptime, then it would just be Pixie Flailing ss Butterfly Swirl.

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 09 Jun 2005 22:12

Okay, I haven't taken the time to read the *entire* topic yet, but something made me chuckle, and I don't want to forget it.

James, your biggest argument seems to be that G.N. takes too long to say. That Backside Smear is easier and more concise than "Beta Pixie Mirage" (You can say Beta Smear you know...)

Okay, fine. The problem occurs when you have to name every fucking combination of components, and THEN the symposium versions!

Here's what made me laugh:

James wrote:I believe slaying is pixie flailing and I think hyper atomic has been named as well. What’s easier? Slaying symp mirage or beta gamma sailing mirage? Come on, it’s sooo obvious.

Okay wait wait wait...You think so? Well what is it? Think that a player who has only been in the scene for a short time will know what the name is?

Well, let's tell this hypothetical newbie quickly (and EASILY) how the greek system works.

1. The Greek System denotes which dexterity in a trick is symposium.
2. Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, and Epsilon correspond to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th dexes.
3. Place applicable greek word(s) in front of the regular non-symp name.
4. You're done.

The option?

Learn this list of words, each of which you will use once every 7 months.

Really, who hits Railing sets other than Michal?

Do you think Sunil knows what Railing is? How about Alpha Sailing?

hacksterbator · Post by **hacksterbator** » 09 Jun 2005 22:59

i have no idea what a railing set is, but i wanna learn it simply so i can say "i railed a tootsie roll" or something similar.

oh and to stay on topic: i think "G.N." makes more sense to me. seems much easier.

james · Post by **james** » 09 Jun 2005 23:23

I guess you weren't bearing with me, that's ok because I didn't expect anything except to waste my own time. Mission accomplished.
I could easily take apart every dissenting post bit by bit and explain tediously how absolutely context defiling they are but that would ALSO be a big waste of my time and I've already learnt my lesson on that one. I'm begoggled by what I'm hearing...
I GIVE UP

From now on I only play footbag, never talk about it.

sniikeri · Post by **sniikeri** » 09 Jun 2005 23:40

Tsiangkun wrote:In any trick, any dex can be symposium.

Erik Chan wrote:Any of the dexes in any move can be symposium.

How can a pixie dex be a symposium? Do you mean rooted pixie (when it'd be "anti-symposium", or at least that's the word used in the "Sets list")

I'm confused about G.N. in pixie moves. Is Backside Symp Smear then Alpha or Beta Symp Smear?

What defines it? Do all the dexes count when defining it Alpha or Beta etc. OR just the dexes that can be done symposium?

AllanHaggett wrote:Holy Shit you guys are geeks!!:D

Word. I think we should play more footbag and let the WFA or IFPA do the thinking.