Harry Potter spoiler ahead - don't say I didn't warn you!
The big theory I've been hearing is he's not actually evil, but was in fact in some way ordered by Dumbledore to kill him. Possibly Dumbledore knew he was going to die from the potion and wanted to spare Malfoy from being in the position to kill him (which Dumbledore knew he wouldn't do, and that would probably cost him his/his family's lives) and allow Snape to keep his unbreakable vow and thereby stay alive. Plus, it would keep Snape on Voldemort's good side for longer.
It all seems plausible to me. When Snape killed Dumbledore, I really was like, wtf? She's been leading us on with this guy-who-acts-evil-but-isn't-really for SIX BOOKS all for him to turn out to actually be evil in the end? That didn't seem right. Plus, having Snape turn out good in the end would be a nice plot twist for that last book. Snape is probably the most complexly set up character in the books.
I guess we'll have wait like three more years to figure anything out for sure anyway, but what do you guys think?
Any other interesting theories you guys have devised or heard from anyone else that you want to share? This is my favorite part of Harry Potter, trying to figure out what will happen in the next book, during that little 2 years tretch.
Snape - Aye or Nay?
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brian relly
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Snape - Aye or Nay?
Last edited by brian relly on 20 Jul 2005 11:43, edited 1 time in total.
esteban barnez
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david wrote:I was just sitting here surfing and my mom looks over my shoulder. I had to jab down the down key real quick so she wouldn't see that topic title and question me about what kind of site I was going on.
I think Rowling is a better writer than to just all the sudden show us that Snape's evil. There has to be something more to it than what's happened so far. If she really wanted to show us that Snape was bad, she wouldn't have portrayed him like that in the VERY first chapter.
Maybe Harry will end up killing Snape, thinking he was bad, while Snape is really still a spy for the Order.
I doubt it though, I've never been right about this kind of stuff before.
Maybe Harry will end up killing Snape, thinking he was bad, while Snape is really still a spy for the Order.
I doubt it though, I've never been right about this kind of stuff before.
I also believe that Snape is not evil; I think that the theory that he was following Dumbledore's orders is right! There is no way that JKR would suddenly reveal that Snape was evil all along and hoodwinked one of the greatest wizards. I was checking out a HP forum and found a reply that sums up what I feel.
http://www.hpana.com/forums/topic_view.cfm?tid=37184
Rowling is great at misdirection. Whenever she becomes ambiguous, she is setting her reader up to believe the obvious, only to be shocked by the hidden truth later on. She does a great job of this in Book 6 around Snape. She is great at making readers think she says much more than she does.
You know, while Snape saved DD's life when he was injured, he couldn't heal the hand. And, the night DD died, he had just drunk a poison that was killing him in a way that was excruciatingly painful. Probably a poison with no antidote. Hermione talks about both of these uncurable things at the feast in the beginning of the book, setting up the scene for DD's death.
By the time Draco gets to him, DD is cursed and poisoned and a dead man walking.
When Snape is running into Dumbledore's chamber, he shouts, "It's over!" What's over? What do we know he and Dumbledore have been discussing? Well, something that Snape has said he can't do any more? Be a double-agent, perhaps? Is he expecting finally to be done with the dark side?
What does he find? Dumbledore dying in agony; Harry in extreme peril; Draco in danger of becoming a murderer or being murdered. Snape isn't being freed from being a double agent at all; instead, his only friend is dying, and the only service he can do DD, the only way he can prevent all of DD's plans and hopes from being destroyed, the only cure he can give DD from his suffering is to kill the man.
No wonder his face is etched, foremost with revulsion and next with hatred. Revulsion at what he must do, and hatred for the person who is responsible - Tom Riddle. But nowhere does the book say that he looks at DD with hatred.
To cast an AK curse, you must feel hatred and a desire to hurt, but nothing anywhere says you must feel those things towards the person you kill. Snape must kill what he loves, but he uses his hatred of Tom Riddle to do it.
Snape is far more of a hero than anyone else in the book, in my opinion. From the beginning, he has carried the greatest burden of any of the adults, and little thanks for it. But at least he had the trust, affection, and friendship of a man like Dumbledore. Now he has no one and nothing, a double-agent committed to the side that no longer trusts him, and trusted by the side he hates.
Snape is much more powerful than he appears. He can cure deadly wounds with a wave of his wand. He is a master at occlumency. He is, in fact, a master of potions, charms, transformations, defense against the Dark Arts, and the Dark Arts, themselves. For a wizard, he is young and vigorous. He is the greatest of the DeathEaters and the greatest of the Order.
And I think that Snape's secret, the reason Dumbledore trusts him, is that he loved Lily Potter. There is lots of evidence for it, if you look back into the memories found in the Pensieve. The reason Dumbledore trusts him must be related to love, because that is the only power Dumbledore trusts to overcome the dark side.
And it would explain why Dumbledore hesitates, and then refuses, to tell Harry exactly why he trusts Snape. What would Harry feel and do, do you think, if Dumbledore told him that?
Mark my words: In Book 7, when Harry most needs help and when no one else can help him, Snape will.
I hope he lives long enough in Book 7 at least to know that his peers will know the truth. And for Harry to know the truth about Snape's devotion to DD and the destruction of Riddle. And for Harry finally to respect him. Unpleasant and unlikeable as he seems, Snape deserves that much.
http://www.hpana.com/forums/topic_view. ... =37076&p=3
Some evidence:
1. Dumbledore is not surprised that Snape is about to kill him. If Dumbledore just then realizes that he miscalculated and could now cost the life of Harry, whom he loves, wouldn't there be some surprise in Dumbledore's face?? remorse?? realization?? No, he just says, "please" to Severus. This is way too deliberately ambiguous on J.K. Rowlings' part.
2. Dumbledore asks for Snape right away when he and Harry get back to Hogwarts. Why is this? For a potion? This is very unlikely. At the very least, this action shows that Dumbledore trusts Snape above everyone else besides Harry, and Dumbledore is way too clever (much more clever than Harry as he, himself, points out) to trust a former death eather simply because he confides in contributing to the death of Harry's parents.
3. The argument Hagrid witnesses. This has already been mentioned several times, but think about it. If Snape is really a double agent on the side of Voldermort, would he argue with Dumbledore to stop being a double agent? To refuse what was already agreed to?
4. Dumbledore makes Snape the defense against the dark arts teacher knowing full well that he would only last a year in that post because of Voldemort's curse (implied). Before then, he wanted to keep Snape around for a long time... perhaps until the breakout of the war? Do you really believe that Dumbledore would prevent Snape from being the defense of the dark arts teacher because he was afraid it would tempt Snape back into the dark arts... AND YET trust Snape as a spy??
5. Snape knows that Harry Potter has his potions book and yet does nothing... he tries to help Potter throughout each of the books in very subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle ways. This is not-so-subtle at the end when Snape looks crazed (I think with remorse at what he had agreed to do) and still does not attack Harry.
http://www.hpana.com/forums/topic_view.cfm?tid=37184
Rowling is great at misdirection. Whenever she becomes ambiguous, she is setting her reader up to believe the obvious, only to be shocked by the hidden truth later on. She does a great job of this in Book 6 around Snape. She is great at making readers think she says much more than she does.
You know, while Snape saved DD's life when he was injured, he couldn't heal the hand. And, the night DD died, he had just drunk a poison that was killing him in a way that was excruciatingly painful. Probably a poison with no antidote. Hermione talks about both of these uncurable things at the feast in the beginning of the book, setting up the scene for DD's death.
By the time Draco gets to him, DD is cursed and poisoned and a dead man walking.
When Snape is running into Dumbledore's chamber, he shouts, "It's over!" What's over? What do we know he and Dumbledore have been discussing? Well, something that Snape has said he can't do any more? Be a double-agent, perhaps? Is he expecting finally to be done with the dark side?
What does he find? Dumbledore dying in agony; Harry in extreme peril; Draco in danger of becoming a murderer or being murdered. Snape isn't being freed from being a double agent at all; instead, his only friend is dying, and the only service he can do DD, the only way he can prevent all of DD's plans and hopes from being destroyed, the only cure he can give DD from his suffering is to kill the man.
No wonder his face is etched, foremost with revulsion and next with hatred. Revulsion at what he must do, and hatred for the person who is responsible - Tom Riddle. But nowhere does the book say that he looks at DD with hatred.
To cast an AK curse, you must feel hatred and a desire to hurt, but nothing anywhere says you must feel those things towards the person you kill. Snape must kill what he loves, but he uses his hatred of Tom Riddle to do it.
Snape is far more of a hero than anyone else in the book, in my opinion. From the beginning, he has carried the greatest burden of any of the adults, and little thanks for it. But at least he had the trust, affection, and friendship of a man like Dumbledore. Now he has no one and nothing, a double-agent committed to the side that no longer trusts him, and trusted by the side he hates.
Snape is much more powerful than he appears. He can cure deadly wounds with a wave of his wand. He is a master at occlumency. He is, in fact, a master of potions, charms, transformations, defense against the Dark Arts, and the Dark Arts, themselves. For a wizard, he is young and vigorous. He is the greatest of the DeathEaters and the greatest of the Order.
And I think that Snape's secret, the reason Dumbledore trusts him, is that he loved Lily Potter. There is lots of evidence for it, if you look back into the memories found in the Pensieve. The reason Dumbledore trusts him must be related to love, because that is the only power Dumbledore trusts to overcome the dark side.
And it would explain why Dumbledore hesitates, and then refuses, to tell Harry exactly why he trusts Snape. What would Harry feel and do, do you think, if Dumbledore told him that?
Mark my words: In Book 7, when Harry most needs help and when no one else can help him, Snape will.
I hope he lives long enough in Book 7 at least to know that his peers will know the truth. And for Harry to know the truth about Snape's devotion to DD and the destruction of Riddle. And for Harry finally to respect him. Unpleasant and unlikeable as he seems, Snape deserves that much.
http://www.hpana.com/forums/topic_view. ... =37076&p=3
Some evidence:
1. Dumbledore is not surprised that Snape is about to kill him. If Dumbledore just then realizes that he miscalculated and could now cost the life of Harry, whom he loves, wouldn't there be some surprise in Dumbledore's face?? remorse?? realization?? No, he just says, "please" to Severus. This is way too deliberately ambiguous on J.K. Rowlings' part.
2. Dumbledore asks for Snape right away when he and Harry get back to Hogwarts. Why is this? For a potion? This is very unlikely. At the very least, this action shows that Dumbledore trusts Snape above everyone else besides Harry, and Dumbledore is way too clever (much more clever than Harry as he, himself, points out) to trust a former death eather simply because he confides in contributing to the death of Harry's parents.
3. The argument Hagrid witnesses. This has already been mentioned several times, but think about it. If Snape is really a double agent on the side of Voldermort, would he argue with Dumbledore to stop being a double agent? To refuse what was already agreed to?
4. Dumbledore makes Snape the defense against the dark arts teacher knowing full well that he would only last a year in that post because of Voldemort's curse (implied). Before then, he wanted to keep Snape around for a long time... perhaps until the breakout of the war? Do you really believe that Dumbledore would prevent Snape from being the defense of the dark arts teacher because he was afraid it would tempt Snape back into the dark arts... AND YET trust Snape as a spy??
5. Snape knows that Harry Potter has his potions book and yet does nothing... he tries to help Potter throughout each of the books in very subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle ways. This is not-so-subtle at the end when Snape looks crazed (I think with remorse at what he had agreed to do) and still does not attack Harry.
Kaushik Amancherla
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brian relly
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No, Dumbledore HAD to die at some point for the series to actually work. It only makes sense - Harry's greatest teacher dies, after teaching him all he knows, and now Harry is left to face Voldemort alone. I foresee many montages in the 7th book
esteban barnez
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david wrote:I was just sitting here surfing and my mom looks over my shoulder. I had to jab down the down key real quick so she wouldn't see that topic title and question me about what kind of site I was going on.
wow. now thinking about what everyone said, its probably true that Dumbledore told Snape to kill him. Im looking forward to Snape tring to defend himself with the Order. No one will belive him if he says it was all Dumbledores idea, unless Dumbledore left a record saying his plan. Like something that the Order can look at and see that it was actually Dumbledores idea... hmm. i dunno. its all up for grabs.
i really dont want to wait another 2 years for the last one.....
i really dont want to wait another 2 years for the last one.....
Ashley Danowski
"As a well spent day brings happy sleep, so life well spent brings happy death."
"As a well spent day brings happy sleep, so life well spent brings happy death."
That's actually very correct. Quigon dies in Episode I, Obi Wan dies in Episode IV, and Yoda dies in Episode VI. Though Morpheus didn't die. Neither did Glinda the Good Witch. Then again, Li Mu Bai dies.Stephen Barnes wrote:No, Dumbledore HAD to die at some point for the series to actually work. It only makes sense - Harry's greatest teacher dies, after teaching him all he knows, and now Harry is left to face Voldemort alone. I foresee many montages in the 7th book
Hmmm, they'll probably bring him back as one of the ghosts at the school.
Old Skool
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brian relly
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He has a talking portrait, I think that's good enough.
esteban barnez
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david wrote:I was just sitting here surfing and my mom looks over my shoulder. I had to jab down the down key real quick so she wouldn't see that topic title and question me about what kind of site I was going on.
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tuomoruutufan
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The one thing that cannot be forggoten is that snape still has guy code to pay up for.
James potter saved snapes life while they were in hogwarts and he returns the favor by leading to his death?
No matter how much he hates james and harry he owes james dearly and no matter what his intentions were that night when he killed dumbledore i think snape will sacrifice himself to save harrys life.
James potter saved snapes life while they were in hogwarts and he returns the favor by leading to his death?
No matter how much he hates james and harry he owes james dearly and no matter what his intentions were that night when he killed dumbledore i think snape will sacrifice himself to save harrys life.
~Shawn Patrick Boyle~
Near the end, when Harry was throwing curses at him, Snape only just blocked them; he never attacked Harry and when he did attack, he didn't do much damage. Also, Snape kept saying that Harry needs to learn nonverbal spells and close his mind in order to defeat Voldemort. It seems like he's almost helping Harry there.
I agree with Stephen in that I don't think that DD will be back as a ghost. He was never afraid of death and didn't Nearly Headless Nick tell Harry, in OotP, that people who are scared of what happens after death come back as ghosts?! It's going to be tough for Harry to find the remaining horcruxes, I think, without the help of DD. Also, who do you guys think R.A.B is? From what I read, most people seem to think that he was Regulus Black, Sirius's brother.
I agree with Stephen in that I don't think that DD will be back as a ghost. He was never afraid of death and didn't Nearly Headless Nick tell Harry, in OotP, that people who are scared of what happens after death come back as ghosts?! It's going to be tough for Harry to find the remaining horcruxes, I think, without the help of DD. Also, who do you guys think R.A.B is? From what I read, most people seem to think that he was Regulus Black, Sirius's brother.
Kaushik Amancherla
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brian relly
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Yep, Regulus A. Black. I thought that was kind of obvious (after my friend pointed it out to me, anyway 
).
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david wrote:I was just sitting here surfing and my mom looks over my shoulder. I had to jab down the down key real quick so she wouldn't see that topic title and question me about what kind of site I was going on.
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Torn
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I agree with everything you said here but there is still one thing that really bothers me:
How can Harry ever fight Voldemort (neither can live while the other survives ...) ?? He is not a very gifted wizard (yet ??)...I mean who can now teach him to fight the most powerful wizard, now with Dumbledore being dead ? I mean he sure knows a few spells but p.e. when Dumbledore captured the Death Eaters (Book five) and actually always when he does magic he is absolutely almighty (only one can (could) stand a chance against Dumbledore : Voldemort...And he is still at full power)...
But Harry is just a wizard who knows a bunch of defensive spells and is very brave (and knows how to love unlike Voldemort)...
I really can't think of any person teaching Harry the things he has to know to face Voldemort with the slighest hope of surviving...
Any ideas ?
greetings Julian
How can Harry ever fight Voldemort (neither can live while the other survives ...) ?? He is not a very gifted wizard (yet ??)...I mean who can now teach him to fight the most powerful wizard, now with Dumbledore being dead ? I mean he sure knows a few spells but p.e. when Dumbledore captured the Death Eaters (Book five) and actually always when he does magic he is absolutely almighty (only one can (could) stand a chance against Dumbledore : Voldemort...And he is still at full power)...
But Harry is just a wizard who knows a bunch of defensive spells and is very brave (and knows how to love unlike Voldemort)...
I really can't think of any person teaching Harry the things he has to know to face Voldemort with the slighest hope of surviving...
Any ideas ?
greetings Julian
Julian Soldat
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Life moves pretty fast, if you don't stop and look around once in a while...you could miss it
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brian relly
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Torn
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To your information Yes I did...And even if you say that Snape is a good healer good at potions etc...
He never ever was described as such a marvellous wizard as Dumbledore was and Voldemort is...Perhaps he can heal deadly wounds with a flick of his wand and he is a very very good occlumens but still he is not as powerful as Dumbledore (or Voldemort)...I doubt that...
I believe that Snape will help Harry in the end but still I am really wondering how Snape can teach Harry considering the fact that they have a few difficulties about getting on well and that actually was my question...how can he teach Harry ? Will Harry ever forgive him and why would that be ? Or will Dumbledore teach Harry (as a talking portrait) ?
P.E. Harry says in the end that he will go looking for Voldemort to kill him and if he met Snape then it would be better for him and worse for Snape and that shows quite clearly that Harry is damn furious (of course he doesn't really know that Snape has helped him (or tried to help him) throughout all those years..)
still I think that will be quite a complicated part to write for Rowling...To make that plausible...
Greetings Julian
He never ever was described as such a marvellous wizard as Dumbledore was and Voldemort is...Perhaps he can heal deadly wounds with a flick of his wand and he is a very very good occlumens but still he is not as powerful as Dumbledore (or Voldemort)...I doubt that...
I believe that Snape will help Harry in the end but still I am really wondering how Snape can teach Harry considering the fact that they have a few difficulties about getting on well and that actually was my question...how can he teach Harry ? Will Harry ever forgive him and why would that be ? Or will Dumbledore teach Harry (as a talking portrait) ?
P.E. Harry says in the end that he will go looking for Voldemort to kill him and if he met Snape then it would be better for him and worse for Snape and that shows quite clearly that Harry is damn furious (of course he doesn't really know that Snape has helped him (or tried to help him) throughout all those years..)
still I think that will be quite a complicated part to write for Rowling...To make that plausible...
Greetings Julian
Julian Soldat
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brian relly
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I see what you're saying, but remember that Harry once thought that Sirius had contributed to the death of his family and wanted to kill him, but he got over that. I figure it will be pretty much the same type of situation with Snape. Snape IS a very powerful wizard - a master of occlumency, which is conveniently what it is Harry needs to learn the most.
esteban barnez
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david wrote:I was just sitting here surfing and my mom looks over my shoulder. I had to jab down the down key real quick so she wouldn't see that topic title and question me about what kind of site I was going on.
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What i have been wondering about is what will now happen to 12 grimauld place? as we have seen, enchantments placed upon people (and i'm going to assume things as well) end once the caster is dead. we saw that the impediment curse dumbledor placed upon harry stopped once he had died.
since dumbledor was the secret keeper of 12 grimauld place will the enchantments that once kept it hidden from those uninformed about it's whereabouts have ended? will it now be visible to all who pass by it and will the death-eaters have a peek inside? or herhaps the house will only be accesible to those who know where it is, since the secret keeper and can no longer reveal it's location? not a whole lot is told about the requirments in casting a charm to conceal a house, but i am assuming that dumbledor was the person who cast it.
At the begining of the novel, the order had fled the house since sirrius' death, for fear that it may now belong to bellatrix and the charms protecting the house would no longer be active. after it was proven that harry was indeed the rightful owner of the property, did the order ever reassemble inside the walls of grimauld place? and if all of dumbledor's protective enchantments are no longer active, the order could be in some trouble if they have taken up residence at the house once more.
just some thing i have been thinking about...
since dumbledor was the secret keeper of 12 grimauld place will the enchantments that once kept it hidden from those uninformed about it's whereabouts have ended? will it now be visible to all who pass by it and will the death-eaters have a peek inside? or herhaps the house will only be accesible to those who know where it is, since the secret keeper and can no longer reveal it's location? not a whole lot is told about the requirments in casting a charm to conceal a house, but i am assuming that dumbledor was the person who cast it.
At the begining of the novel, the order had fled the house since sirrius' death, for fear that it may now belong to bellatrix and the charms protecting the house would no longer be active. after it was proven that harry was indeed the rightful owner of the property, did the order ever reassemble inside the walls of grimauld place? and if all of dumbledor's protective enchantments are no longer active, the order could be in some trouble if they have taken up residence at the house once more.
just some thing i have been thinking about...
A.G.
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tuomoruutufan
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Well I think no matter whether Snape is good or bad, Dumbledore either died on purpose, or knew he was going to die. I told this to my girlfriend, and she didn't think so, but I used the analogy of Obi-Wan becoming stronger when he allowed Darth Vader to kill him...and she got even more confused.
I think Snape is good, but only after reading this book. I was totally convinced he was soooooo pure evil before. Although things like him actually saving Harry's hide in the past books confused me up to this point (at which I am only speculating, obviously...). I kind of skimmed most of this, because I'd given this thread up for dead after I actually managed to read the book, but there were so many good points made! I never heard any rumours or anything. All I know is that some asshole spoiled the book for me on here and I knew from the beginning that Snape would kill Dumbledore
What a fucking bastard.
Do you guys think it's silly to think that Dumbledore could come back, or actually isn't dead, and that maybe Snape cast a "fake" Avada Kadavra?? Man I felt so happy when Draco didn't want to actually kill Dumbledore...
I don't know...the book was actually pretty lame, when I finished. Everything happened in, like, 2 chapters and when I looked back after the rest of the book was really pretty boring and REALLY uneventful. 4 Is still my favourite. Did you guys see the new trailer for 4????? Mad Eye Moody!!!!!!!!!!! Actually I think I saw two new trailers!
Edit: There was this one HILARIOUS part that made me laugh out loud on the bus, when Kreacher was talking to himself in his third person voice and everyone could hear him...I forget what he said, but it was sooooooo funny!!!!
I think Snape is good, but only after reading this book. I was totally convinced he was soooooo pure evil before. Although things like him actually saving Harry's hide in the past books confused me up to this point (at which I am only speculating, obviously...). I kind of skimmed most of this, because I'd given this thread up for dead after I actually managed to read the book, but there were so many good points made! I never heard any rumours or anything. All I know is that some asshole spoiled the book for me on here and I knew from the beginning that Snape would kill Dumbledore
What a fucking bastard.Do you guys think it's silly to think that Dumbledore could come back, or actually isn't dead, and that maybe Snape cast a "fake" Avada Kadavra?? Man I felt so happy when Draco didn't want to actually kill Dumbledore...
I don't know...the book was actually pretty lame, when I finished. Everything happened in, like, 2 chapters and when I looked back after the rest of the book was really pretty boring and REALLY uneventful. 4 Is still my favourite. Did you guys see the new trailer for 4????? Mad Eye Moody!!!!!!!!!!! Actually I think I saw two new trailers!
Edit: There was this one HILARIOUS part that made me laugh out loud on the bus, when Kreacher was talking to himself in his third person voice and everyone could hear him...I forget what he said, but it was sooooooo funny!!!!