Should I remove my toe box walls?

David Morawski · Post by **David Morawski** » 17 Aug 2005 12:22

I was browsing through the Post your Shoes.. thread, and there were some discrepancies in regard to whether or not one should remove their toe walls (removing the bottom 2 eyelets or so). Some people thought that you should keep the toe walls, because they weren't a crutch and would help someone learn their pixie sets. Matt Cross argued that

I think you should cut the walls off. I think everyone should. It makes you more precise in the toes and opens up the stall zone. if you're rolling your pixie sets off to the side without walls, that doesn't mean you need walls. it means you need to do your pixie sets right.

This argument seems to make sense to me. The bulk of this argument took place on page 5.

I'm just trying to devote more of a discussion to this topic, because I'm trying to mod my lavers but want to know what would be the best for me. I'm a beginner (legovers and toe to toe delays comprise most of my set) and haven't even cut my eyelets to make a toe box, I've just laced them normally but starting at the third eyelet.

Hopefully this makes sense..I'm curious to know everyone's thoughts on this.

Thanks !

Torn · Post by **Torn** » 17 Aug 2005 12:48

I'm not a very experienced at modding shoes I only modded my first and only pair of lavers up to now

but

I definitely advise you to cut the toe walls off...It helps, it really helps...First it was quite odd with those walls but now I wouldn't want to remove the mod (actually I couldn't but nevermind

)...

It's in the beginning far easier to catch the bag due to this mod ...Very soon you don't need the mod anymore for your toe stalls but it still helps a lot if a dex is "the" or something like this and the bag rolls a bit on your toe platform...It's not a big "surgery" and you have to cut them very strange to do major harm to the shoe (actually I think it's nearly impossible to waste the shoes as a result of this mod)...It's very easy to do it and it's really worth it...aprox. 10 minutes work and as result you have months of fun with your modded lavers...

My advise is do them and you won't ever regret it

(also the inner canvas removal : toe and inside is very helpful...more difficult but really worth it, I will do these mods on my next lavers for sure)..

greetings Julian

Nathan · Post by **Nathan** » 17 Aug 2005 13:41

I advise you NOT to. I recently went back to playing in lavers with walls and my pixies are stinking it up. Now, I don't know if this is because my set is actually the, but I do know that playing without walls makes playing with walls a pain in the ass. My suggestion is to learn to play with walls. Even though your walls are there, if the bag is caught with the walls during the stall, it will catch on the set.

Basically, I think playing with walls makes your game cleaner in the long run, because you have to focus on bigger dexes and more precise sets, as long as you make sure your toe stalls aren't requiring the walls to catch it.

I suggest everyone who plays in wall less lavers to go back and try to play in lavers with walls, it will be harder than you think.

Iain · Post by **Iain** » 17 Aug 2005 13:54

Nathan wrote:I recently went back to playing in lavers with walls and my pixies are stinking it up. Now, I don't know if this is because my set is actually the, but I do know that playing without walls makes playing with walls a pain in the ass.

It's not because ur sets aren't clean. It's because you're playing with an obsticle. Should i play in pants to make sure i'm making my dex's clean? Hell no

brian relly · Post by **brian relly** » 17 Aug 2005 14:05

NO.

Iain wrote:
Nathan wrote:I recently went back to playing in lavers with walls and my pixies are stinking it up. Now, I don't know if this is because my set is actually the, but I do know that playing without walls makes playing with walls a pain in the ass.
It's not because ur sets aren't clean. It's because you're playing with an obsticle. Should i play in pants to make sure i'm making my dex's clean? Hell no

No, it's because his sets aren't clean (not to rip on you Nathan, just using your example). It's not an obstacle. The wall's presence should not matter at all if your sets are clean. If you snag your sets at all, it means you're trying to snap your ankle off right as you set, instead of setting, then dexing on its way up. The problem is, when you cut your walls off, you STILL do your sets this way, and it is UGLY UGLY UGLY.

So, for the love of G-d, don't cut your walls off. Next time someone tells you, "You wouldn't have caught that if it weren't for your walls," say, "Yeah, well you would have snagged that set three times in a row and passed if you had walls."

Ever see Vasek snag his sets?

rory · Post by **rory** » 17 Aug 2005 14:07

personally i like the toe walls, i think it gives me the perfect little flick for pixies and helps keep them clean and under control like nate said, i have never used lavers without toewalls so idk, maybe ill try that one day and see how it is

David Morawski · Post by **David Morawski** » 17 Aug 2005 15:30

Stephen Barnes wrote:NO.

So, for the love of G-d, don't cut your walls off. Next time someone tells you, "You wouldn't have caught that if it weren't for your walls," say, "Yeah, well you would have snagged that set three times in a row and passed if you had walls."

Ever see Vasek snag his sets?

I'm convinced

Thanks all

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 17 Aug 2005 15:57

I cut mine off cause if I had it any other way my shoe would be made for footbag not Tennis.

While I can see keeping them for pixie training. At what point do you remove the training wheels?

I mean I don't like having to mod a shoe to begin with, but what you gonna do when a shoe HAS to be modded?

~peace
Damon

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 17 Aug 2005 16:07

If something 3/8*1inch is hitting the bag on your "set", I'd argue you have no set. The walls are lower than the ankle, and any dex lower than the ankle is in the zone

Iain · Post by **Iain** » 17 Aug 2005 16:23

if a dex is thin or if a dex is deep, it doesn't matter. A dex is a dex. I have never once seen someone actually miss the dex on a pixie set. Quite frankly, i think it's impossible unless you really try to miss it.

Laroche · Post by **Laroche** » 17 Aug 2005 16:34

I completely disagree Iain, Ive seen plenty of the'd pixie sets.

DONT CUT THE WALLS.

Im going to try and find my discussion with Clavens which I write everything out really nicely and post it here again, because, well, Im right and all of you saying cut them off are wrong

EDIT: Hook, Line, and Sinker

mc · Post by mc » 17 Aug 2005 19:59

I've seen some the'd pixie sets from people with and without walls. I play in climas with no walls whatsoever. I cut the walls off my lavers when I used to use those. My pixie set dexes happen in the middle of my calf, not because I trained with walls, but because I want them like that, so I do them like that. I don't like walls, they get in the way, they mess me up. I don't need something on my foot to prove my cleanliness to myself or others. I just do it clean.

I think it's pretty weak if one thinks that they just can't be clean without walls, so they keep the walls on their shoes to keep their style in line. Just do it clean! look at your leg when you're doing the set, for frick's sake! Does it come past the middle of your thigh on the way up, or does it flip around your toe? you don't need walls to tell.

mosher · Post by **mosher** » 17 Aug 2005 20:28

Listen to Matt Cross and don't be stupid!

Laroche · Post by **Laroche** » 18 Aug 2005 13:56

The IDEA is that someone who is new to the sport wont necessarily be able to tell whether they THE their pixie sets or not, and the walls make it a bit easier to tell, and encourage better form.

Again: Not having walls does not make it automatically THE. LEARNING without the walls when starting out DOES make a difference, its simple.

Cut them off after a while if you want, but I still recommend keeping the walls up at first.

Chema · Post by **Chema** » 18 Aug 2005 16:15

I've played in both walls and no walls (I had them but cut them off to experiment). Walls are definately better when learning!!! And because I'm still learning I wish I hadn't cut them off. Toe stalls will be easier, but more importantly it will teach you how to set better. Even if you feel like you can't do pixie sets, KEEP YOUR WALLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't make the same mistake I made.
I thought my pixie sets would be better, but that's because I was sliding my sets, which is the absolute wrong way!!!!!

mc · Post by mc » 18 Aug 2005 20:09

how to do a pixie set, with or without walls:

with the bag stalled squarely in the middle of your toe area, do a sharp pull straight up with your knee. Getting that fast pull up is what will get it off your toe fast, so you don't have to worry about it snagging on your walls or flipping around your foot, depending on your choice of modification.

immediately after that sharp pull, point your knee out slightly while bringing your foot slightly forward. this will open up the window for the dex, and bring your foot in just enough to have the bag go past your calf right about at the middle, where the dex is nice and clean.

The fast jerk upward with the knee is key.

So, now that that's been established, everyone can do their pixies cleanly, walls or not.

Although I feel that good style is quite attainable (and frankly, easier) without toe walls, I recommend giving both a fair chance, and deciding for yourself which you like better. I've made my case for why I prefer no walls, but other opinions are just as valid. It's all about what you like as a freestyler.

I think the most important thing is that you don't just make your choice based on the experiences of others, but rather to try for yourself and see what you like better. I can argue my point for what I like, but you might like something different. So try both. Then, you can honestly vie for your own preferences.

smpdustin15 · Post by **smpdustin15** » 18 Aug 2005 21:55

i love cut walls i think it makes the shoe look better and well yeah its awesome with out the wall i dont even cut past the eyelet.
am i the only one to cut the wall when my atomics started to catch.
when i cut the wall my atomic got deeper up my thigh and less effort.

remember cut for looks and train for cleanliness

Torn · Post by **Torn** » 19 Aug 2005 07:33

I'm totally confused...

Have I understood wrong in the beginning ?

Do you want to cut OFF the walls ? Not open up the walls so you have walls ? I wouldn't recommend at all to cut OFF the walls but having walls is great...

Lol I am really confused now

...

However...just SHRED

greetings Julian

David Morawski · Post by **David Morawski** » 19 Aug 2005 08:34

I'm not confused, so don't worry, Julian

Thanks to everyone for their replies..I'm no where near pixies yet, but your input was invaluable (Matt Cross, you are a wise man.)

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 19 Aug 2005 17:58

i cut the walls off, why? it doesn't affect my pixie sets at all really, it more affects my ability to make a "saving/bailing" type delay after not quite performing a move completely perfect

example: Sometimes I still struggle with pdx mirages, yeah p mriages. With the wings it would get caught in the wing-ness sort to speak when I couldn't quite set it just right and therefore ending the run because my set would stick or shoot away. Without the wings, I can make a clean delay and set even when I mess up the set. Call it bad form or call it really lame to end a run or chase the bag 5 feet cause of a useless piece of my shoe sucking the bag up when I can do better without it.

Its not only p mirages, its mostly any move with a toe delay in it. They just get in the way for me. More toe space is better

This is just me, but what is the point of having the wings? I think lavers look way better without em anyways IMO