"The Nature of Religion Memes"

This section is specifically for serious non-footbag debate and discussion.
Chema
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Post by Chema »

Outsider just basically said exactly what I was trying to convey in a short paragraph in my previous post. Thank you so much! :D

I find that when people hear that something is a theory, they think "Oh, it's just a theory, so its probably not true," but really a theory is something that has soooo much evidence supporting it that we basically assume its true until we can find that one last thing to prove it.
One of the problems I think is that people call 'hypotheses', 'theories'. I may sound funny but that's a huge mistake. A hypotheses is just a guess, a theory is the absolute best guess, and must have tones, and tones of evidence. I'm almost certain Creationism is not a theory, its just hypothesis.



On a different note, I think people take the Bible too seriously. For example when they say, "the earth was created in seven days", they might mean "day" as a metaphor for era. Maybe they divided the earths creation into era's similar to how we do today. And you have to understand the Bible is a book of stories, what would happen if people took Greek myths, or Asab's Fables as fact? Geese can't lay golden eggs, and no one can fly with wings made of wax.
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Post by Tsiangkun »

I would say hypothesis is too generous a term for creationism. A hypothesis is testable and refinable.
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Post by FlexThis »

Hence mass and energy are interchangable and in fact the same thing, and the Big Bang is a completely possible scenario, professor.
Hmm.. Energy to mass > mass to energy is still something quantifiable, so I wouldn't say it is created nor destroyed, but simply transferred from one thing to another.

Outsider,

I like the way you split the apes from the humans by a common ancester. Unfortuanately we have no proof of this common ancestor, no proof that humans could ever swing from tree to tree.

This makes it more difficult to prove the case. IMO.

I also agree with Chema about the timeline of some of the "Biblical" stories. Methuselah lived to be 900. Was the year based on fortnights (2 weeks, I think) or something? I can't fathom 900 years.
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Post by Outsider »

FlexThis wrote:
I like the way you split the apes from the humans by a common ancester. Unfortuanately we have no proof of this common ancestor, no proof that humans could ever swing from tree to tree.
Well, its an important point. Most people believe that biologists suggest that we evolved directly from chimps, but this is not what evolution teaches. The theory of human evolution believes that we evolved from a series of ancestral forms. Modern animals are all descendants of some ancestral forms, and those ancestors are, in almost every case, long since extinct. Modern animals and humans all came from something previous that is long since gone. At some time in the distant past, wolves and lions shared a common ancestor. Populations of this common ancestor would have become isolated from one another geographically or behaviorally (animals that take on nocturnal habits could be said to become isolated form animals of the same species in the same location who are diurnal [the opposite of nocturnal], and the nocturnal animals will tend not to breed with the diurnal animals, and so differing mutations that gradually build up in each population of the same species can eventually build up differently in the two populations, and since the two populations are not exchanging these new genes by breeding with one-another, the eventual result is two different species from the original one, no longer capable of interbreeding even if they were operating on the same schedule), and genetic changes that build up in the two isolated populations of the same animals are not traded between them. The differing environmental pressures of the isolated areas (different temperatures, terrain, and available food) will cause these two isolated groups of the same species to gradually adapt differently to their different habitats, and eventually these two isolated populations of this one species will branch into two different species with different characteristics developed to fit their different habitats and you wind up with the ancestors of dogs and cats from a common ancestor.

The point is, cats and dogs share a common ancestor, and it is important to understand that that is not the same as saying that cats evolved FROM dogs, or vice-versa. Similarly, humans and chimps both evolved from a common ancestor, which is not the same as saying that humans evolved FROM chimps.

Damon, fossil evidence has been found of a variety of human ancestors. You are correct, the common ancestor of humans and other Apes is not known and described yet. However, this common ancestor of our and the other Apes is believed to have existed about six million years ago. Finding fossil evidence of human ancestors as old as three million years is rare and difficult to do, but over the past 100 years, since the search for the fossil evidence of human ancestors really took off with the discovery of the Neanderthals (dating from about 100,000 years ago to as recent as about 30,000 years in Europe and the Middle East) anthropologists have gradually uncovered, bit by bit, a relatively consistent fossilized trail of evidence of human ancestors going back a little beyond 3 million years (before we made stone tools, before we had brains any bigger than chimps, but not necessarily before we began to start walking upright). The majority of that older evidence is all from east and south Africa. Recently fossils were discovered in central Africa that date from around 4.5 million years old. The majority of existant chimps and gorillas live in west Africa. The point is, we haven't found all the fossil evidence that there is to find yet, not by far. We haven't even begun to look everywhere that there is to look. Unfortunately, bones simply don't fossilize the same everywhere; some environmental conditions favor fossilization, and some don't. In many cases we will not find fossils of human ancestors in places where our ancestors lived because bones were simply not preserved due to acidic soils or greater erosion or other problems. Not all the evidence that we could wish for even exists today. But there is still more evidence to be found, and it will gradually build up to demonstrate a very clear picture of the human evolution from earlier primate ancestors.
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Post by FlexThis »

I disagree!

-jk :wink:

Yes I agree with all of what you said. It is inevitible (if evidence still exists) that we will learn the origins of man and that those origins may directly contradict Biblical teachings, or other religious techings, etc...

I believe the true test to the contrary would be to find Adam. If his bones remain. Then scientists will have another mystery to unravel. Where the fuck did Adam come from?

And you know how to tell if they trully have Adam??? He will be sans belly button. Not sure if you can even trace that detail from a fossil.

Anyways, you have done a wonderful job explaining what I learned in 7th grade science class grasshopper.

Now dragon slayer - find me Adam or find me a monkey man thing. :lol:

~peace
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Post by Tsiangkun »

We already know.

Lets take a human gene needed for presenting antigens to the immune system and compare it to the gorilla . . . effectively looking backwards 5 million years as estimated by DNA nucleotide mutation rates.

Code: Select all

>ID|1A01_GORGO|SPTR|P30375 DESCRIPTION:"Class I histocompatibility antigen,
            GOGO-A0101 alpha chain precursor" organism:"Gorilla gorilla
            gorilla" EMBL:"X60258; CAA42810.1; -." (01-APR-1993)
        Length = 365

 Score = 1858 (659.1 bits), Expect = 1.7e-192, P = 1.7e-192
 Identities = 348/365 (95%), Positives = 356/365 (97%)

Query:     1 MAIMAPRTLVLLLSGALALTQTWAGSHSMRYFYTSVSRPGRGEPRFIAVGYVDDTQFVRF 60
             MA+MAPRTLVLLLSGALALTQTWAGSHSMRYF TSVSRPGRGEPRFIAVGYVDDTQFVRF
Sbjct:     1 MAVMAPRTLVLLLSGALALTQTWAGSHSMRYFSTSVSRPGRGEPRFIAVGYVDDTQFVRF 60

Query:    61 DSDAASQRMEPRAPWIEQEGPEYWDRNTRKVKAQSQTDRVDLGTLRGYYNQSEDGSHTIQ 120
             DSDAASQRMEPRAPWIEQEGPEYWDRNTR VKA SQTDRVDLGTLRGYYNQSEDGSHTIQ
Sbjct:    61 DSDAASQRMEPRAPWIEQEGPEYWDRNTRNVKAHSQTDRVDLGTLRGYYNQSEDGSHTIQ 120

Query:   121 RMYGCDVGPDGRFLRGYQQDAYDGKDYIALNEDLRSWTAADMAAQITQRKWETAHEAEQW 180
             RMYGCDVG DGRFLRGYQQDAYDGKDYIALNEDLRSWTAADMAA+IT+RKWE AH AEQ 
Sbjct:   121 RMYGCDVGSDGRFLRGYQQDAYDGKDYIALNEDLRSWTAADMAAEITKRKWEAAHFAEQL 180

Query:   181 RAYLEGTCVEWLRRYLENGKETLQRTDAPKTHMTHHAVSDHEATLRCWALSFYPAEITLT 240
             RAYLEGTCVEWLRR+LENGKETLQRTDAPKTHMTHHAVSDHEA LRCWALSFYPAEITLT
Sbjct:   181 RAYLEGTCVEWLRRHLENGKETLQRTDAPKTHMTHHAVSDHEAILRCWALSFYPAEITLT 240

Query:   241 WQRDGEDQTQDTELVETRPAGDGTFQKWASVVVPSGQEQRYTCHVQHEGLPKPLTLRWEP 300
             WQRDGEDQTQDTELVETRPAGDGTFQKWA+VVVPSGQEQRYTCHVQHEGLP+PLTLRWEP
Sbjct:   241 WQRDGEDQTQDTELVETRPAGDGTFQKWAAVVVPSGQEQRYTCHVQHEGLPEPLTLRWEP 300

Query:   301 SSQPTIPIVGILAGLVLFGAVIAGAVVAAVMWRRKSSDRKGGSYSQAASSDSAQGSDMSL 360
             SSQPTIPIVGI+AGLVLFGAVIAGAVVAAV WRRKSSDRKGGSYSQAASSDSAQGSD+SL
Sbjct:   301 SSQPTIPIVGIIAGLVLFGAVIAGAVVAAVRWRRKSSDRKGGSYSQAASSDSAQGSDVSL 360

Query:   361 TACKV 365
             TACKV
Sbjct:   361 TACKV 365
Now lets compare the human gene to the mouse, stepping backwards through 75 million years of evolution from our genetic materials viewpoint

Code: Select all

>ID|HA12_RAT|SPTR|P16391; O02940 DESCRIPTION:"RT1 class I histocompatibility
            antigen, AA alpha chain precursor" organism:"Rattus norvegicus"
            EMBL:"M31018; AAB49324.1; -." (15-JUL-1998)
        Length = 371

 Score = 1328 (472.5 bits), Expect = 2.2e-136, P = 2.2e-136
 Identities = 255/370 (68%), Positives = 292/370 (78%)

Query:     1 MAIMAPRTLVLLLSGALALTQTWAGSHSMRYFYTSVSRPGRGEPRFIAVGYVDDTQFVRF 60
             M  MAPRTL+LLL+ ALA TQT AGSHS+RYFYT+VSRPG GEPRFIAVGYVDDT+FVRF
Sbjct:     1 MEAMAPRTLLLLLAAALAPTQTRAGSHSLRYFYTAVSRPGLGEPRFIAVGYVDDTEFVRF 60

Query:    61 DSDAASQRMEPRAPWIEQEGPEYWDRNTRKVKAQSQTDRVDLGTLRGYYNQSEDGSHTIQ 120
             DSDA + RMEPRA W+E+EGPEYW++ TR  K   Q  RVDL TLRGYYNQSE GSHTIQ
Sbjct:    61 DSDAENPRMEPRARWMEREGPEYWEQQTRIAKEWEQIYRVDLRTLRGYYNQSEGGSHTIQ 120

Query:   121 RMYGCDVGPDGRFLRGYQQDAYDGKDYIALNEDLRSWTAADMAAQITQRKWETAHEAEQW 180
              MYGCDVG DG  LRGY+QDAYDG+DYIALNEDL++WTAAD AAQIT+ KWE A  AE+ 
Sbjct:   121 EMYGCDVGSDGSLLRGYRQDAYDGRDYIALNEDLKTWTAADFAAQITRNKWERARYAERL 180

Query:   181 RAYLEGTCVEWLRRYLENGKETLQRTDAPKTHMTHHAVSDHEATLRCWALSFYPAEITLT 240
             RAYLEGTCVEWL RYLE GKETL R+D P+ H+T H   + + TLRCWAL FYPA+ITLT
Sbjct:   181 RAYLEGTCVEWLSRYLELGKETLLRSDPPEAHVTLHPRPEGDVTLRCWALGFYPADITLT 240

Query:   241 WQRDGEDQTQDTELVETRPAGDGTFQKWASVVVPSGQEQRYTCHVQHEGLPKPLTLRWEP 300
             WQ +GED TQD ELVETRPAGDGTFQKWASVVVP G+EQ YTC V+HEGLPKPL+ RWEP
Sbjct:   241 WQLNGEDLTQDMELVETRPAGDGTFQKWASVVVPLGKEQNYTCRVEHEGLPKPLSQRWEP 300

Query:   301 S-----SQPTIPIVGILAGLVLFGAV-IAGAVVAAVMWRRKSSDRKGGSYSQAASSDSAQ 354
             S     +  T  I  IL  + + GAV I GA+VA V  R++++  KGG Y+ A   DS+Q
Sbjct:   301 SPSTDSNMETTVIYVILGAVAMIGAVAIIGAMVAVVRRRKRNTGGKGGDYAPAPGRDSSQ 360

Query:   355 GSDMSLTACK 364
              SD+SL  CK
Sbjct:   361 SSDVSLPDCK 370
We can continue to step backwards in time through hundreds of millions of years, and the alignments fall off as would be expected by the nucleotide substitution and mutation rates estimations. We could determine the point at which a new immune system was introduced to life forms, as at some point, there will be no match to the sequence which would be significant beyond the matches expected due to random chance for a search through a known number of bases.

Evolution isn't some hokus pocus theory relying upon virgin birth, incest, 900 year old men, impossible conditions to repopulate a planet, but is rather a model of what we actually observe in real life. I won't post the alignments for each organism I have on file here, because that would be way too large and wouldn't really add anything beyond the example shown..

We can't sequence the intermediate forms that became exstinct, we only have the remaining pieces. Saying evolution is incomplete is accurate. As is saying an assembled jigsaw puzzle missing some pieces is incomplete. How ever, we have sufficient data to understand the image of the puzzle, and can make an educated guess at what is missing and how much is missing.
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Post by Chema »

Very well put, Tsiangkun. I tried to basically say that in like one paragraph, I'm glade you took the time to write all that.

Just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living or what are you studying?
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Post by Tsiangkun »

My official job title is DNA sequence specialist, but I prefer to tell people I'm a chromosome mechanic. I think it has a nice blule collar feel to it.
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Post by FlexThis »

hmm...

Carry the 1 and add chromosones y>x

Subtract the string literal:
MAIMAPRTLVLLLSGALALTQTWAGSHSMRYFYTSVSRPGRGEPRFIAVGYVDDTQFVRF

+ or - 3% for accuracy.

divided by the number of monkeys in Africa

Multiplied by the sum of all pre-historic whooping cranes

a??? The result has to be...

















420 :D

Best I can do on short notice.

~peace
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Post by shreddaily »

Don't listen to Tsiangkun.. he just copied an pasted that whole thing from some website he found.. we all know hes realy a janitor... well, was a janitor untill he hot caught sniffing panties from some 16-year-old girls in the locker rooms. Now he just sweeps the sand off of little islands he creats in his head.
may the lord be with you,
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Post by Chema »

You guys great :roll:
...resorting to insults because you just can't come up with anymore arguments against evolution. Face it, you just can't take the bible so literally.
I feel sympathy toward you.
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Post by Chema »

You guys are great :roll:
...resorting to insults because you just can't come up with anymore arguments against evolution. Face it, you just can't take the bible so literally.
I feel sympathy toward you.
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Post by Chema »

Shit sorry for the double post :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Post by FlexThis »

You guys are great Rolling Eyes
...resorting to insults because you just can't come up with anymore arguments against evolution. Face it, you just can't take the bible so literally.
I feel sympathy toward you.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You guys are great Rolling Eyes
...resorting to insults because you just can't come up with anymore arguments against evolution. Face it, you just can't take the bible so literally.
I feel sympathy toward you.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Had to laugh twice.

Filling an argument with a ton of facts and figures that require a legal team, jury and forensic scientists only clouds the air with doubt.

That's why it is refered to as: A Smokescreen

This fallacy occurs by offering too many details in order either to obscure the point or to cover-up counter-evidence.

I'll get back to you when I fish my Genome Degree out of the cracker jack box.

~peace
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Post by professor »

You guys great
...resorting to insults because you just can't come up with anymore arguments against evolution. Face it, you just can't take the bible so literally.
I feel sympathy toward you.
Umm...I'm pretty sure he was just joking. Nate usually doesn't just make fun of people for no reason unless he's joking.
Shit sorry for the double post
That was actually a triple post. :wink: :D <-- This means joking. <--- Again just joking, sorry sometimes I get carried away.
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Post by professor »

Double post!!! 2 in one day, man I'm on a roll!
Face it, you just can't take the bible so literally.
Why is it that we need to stop taking the Bible so literally? Maybe it's you that needs to stop taking it so liberally.
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Post by FlexThis »

Yeah I was joking. Cameron is my friend and knows that I will destroy any attempt he makes to be rationale.

Nate is just a plain jelly donut. Boring on the outside and fruit filled on the inside.

:lol: - Now that was a joke towards Nate - Love ya bro! :wink:

Read the Bible or not, why should I care? You're the one going to hell.
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Post by shreddaily »

I'd say I'm more like a grape ice pop

fruity outside
ice cold on the inside
and theres a big stick up my ass

my biggest beef with catholisism, I had 7 years of catholic school and I've been baptized first comunion confession and confirmed so I know my shit, is the statement "god created man in his own image". Whatever god is he doesn't have eyes ears and a nose. He doesn't get hungery, sleepy and horny. IT is something much different than us. We are simply a computer programed to do our shit. Shift some of the wires and we're completely different. Whatever IT is it aint us.

but one of my best friends is a new priest this year...hes a cool dude but we have some differences. for example I like aqua teen hungar force!
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Post by shreddaily »

shreddaily wrote:I'd say I'm more like a grape ice pop

fruity outside
ice cold on the inside
and theres a big stick up my ass

my biggest beef with catholisism, I had 7 years of catholic school and I've been baptized first comunion confession and confirmed so I know my shit, is the statement "god created man in his own image". Whatever god is he doesn't have eyes ears and a nose. He doesn't get hungery, sleepy or horny. IT is something much different than us. We are simply a computer programed to do our shit. Shift some of the wires and we're completely different. Whatever IT is it aint us.

but one of my best friends is a new priest this year...hes a cool dude but we have some differences. for example I like aqua teen hungar force!
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