music theory

NotHisRealName · Post by **NotHisRealName** » 26 Aug 2005 06:04

I like to think that music is an art, not a science. And art should not be governed by rules.

But it's cool if you think otherwise - so long as you don't suck at it.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » 26 Aug 2005 06:16

Augmented sixth chords essentially function as secondary dominants. The Italian, German, and French augmented sixth chords all have in common the minor sixth degree and augmented fourth degree. As the interval created between the bass and upper voice is an augmented sixth, these types of chords have been termed augmented sixth chords.

The tonic in the augmented sixth chord typically comes in an inner voice. What determines the difference between the Italian, German, and French augmented sixth chords is the placement of the fourth voice, thus giving the intervals:

Italian sixth: augmented sixth (with only the third)
German sixth: augmented six-five-three
French sixth: augmented six-four-three

Neapolitan sixth anyone? Anyone ever do any work with pandiatonicism or applying the golden mean in analysis?

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 26 Aug 2005 10:08

Skippy! wrote:Some of the best musicians out there didn't know shit about theory, re: Jimi Hendrix, among others. Theory isn't a necessary requirement to be a solid player, all you need is natural ability and the guts to practice for hours at a time.

You are very correct. It would be ignorant to argue otherwise...however music theory is out there and thats what this thread is about.

nice work adam...That answer is valid however I look at augmented sixth chords in relation to the tonic. Every augmented sixth chord has scale degree b6, 1 and #4. The italian doubles the 1, the french adds scale degree 2 and the german adds scale degree b3. the reason its an augmented sixth chord is because the distance bewteen the outer voices, b6 and #4 is an augmented 6th.

I've heard of pandiatonisim, but not your second thing. are you talking about atonalism?... care to enlighten us.

Oh yeah and the 4 jazz questions can still be answered.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » 27 Aug 2005 17:16

Trying to keep this thread alive...

Nate-

I like your way of thinking of augmented sixth chords from the tonic--it gives a clear sequence of 1, 2, b3.

Although my specialty is not jazz harmony and improvisation, I did my homework and came up with some answers to a couple of your questions:

1. The Dameron turnaround

Named after the pianist Tadd Dameron. It is a chord sequence of Imaj7-bIII7-bVImaj7-bII7

I read that this sequence is some sort of tritone substitute but I couldn't find enough information to understand what was meant by this. Any hints?

2. Scales over C9(b5)

Whole tone scale
C Lydian b7
Synthetic scales?

My approach was to look for scales that included the chord tones. I am sure there are many other options. What is your approach to this?

3. The golden mean, also called the golden section, is a mathematical proportion that is somehow pleasing to the eye. It is found in man-made objects such as architecture, paintings, etc. and also in shapes and proportions found in nature.

Some music theorists suggest the use of the golden section as a tool for analyzing music. One looks for the appearance of this proportion in structures, sections, intervals, rhythms, etc. Often this proportion appears naturally (in folk music, etc.) without the composer consciously being aware of it. However, there is great reason to believe that some composers (Bartok is a good example) consciously used the golden section when composing music. You might be able to find some good articles on the Internet.

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 27 Aug 2005 22:09

Um, with the Dameron. The I - bIII - bVI - bII.....I didn't actually know that's what it was called, but it's just a substitute for:

ONE SIX TWO FIVE

Good old 1 6 2 5.

bigdirtyfoot · Post by **bigdirtyfoot** » 27 Aug 2005 22:17

shreddaily wrote:any one understand any of that or sound I just pm senior wilder?

Haha!

I might check back here later. Sorry, I've been so ultimately busy lately, and yes, one of the things is taking my music theory class (third semester, yay!).

Adam · Post by **Adam** » 28 Aug 2005 07:57

Ah! The Dameron turnaround is simply a substitute for I-VI-II-V. Now I see what was meant by tritone substitute (each chord in the Dameron turnaround is down an augmented fourth from the VI-II-V).

Thanks!

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 28 Aug 2005 09:51

qphox wrote:Um, with the Dameron. The I - bIII - bVI - bII.....I didn't actually know that's what it was called, but it's just a substitute for:

ONE SIX TWO FIVE

Good old 1 6 2 5.

Ah! It's so happy!

More progressions! I don't 'understand' anything other than I IV V and iv.

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 28 Aug 2005 21:12

Adam wrote:2. Scales over C9(b5)
Whole tone scale
C Lydian b7
Synthetic scales?
My approach was to look for scales that included the chord tones. I am sure there are many other options. What is your approach to this?

C9(b5,#5) the answer would be wholetone. Though, execpt for during the melody you can realy improvise anything you want over an altered dominant and a good comper will give you the room to do that. As far as my approach its the same as yours, match the critical tones and alterations with the chord given.

So my last 2 questions remain. Any improvisors should have these tools in their belt!!! I told you the answer to the last one Torch, did it sink in???
Kevin , do you study music theory, or are you a performer as well??
Adam I wish I could remember more from my classical music theory classes. they definatly use theory just as much as jazzers, although the performers don't necessarily need to know any. i remember sonata form being pretty intense, I could probably map one out if given a piece. expostion x 2, developement, recapitualtion, right...am I missing one?

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 28 Aug 2005 22:42

I was forced to perform and solo during college...I went to a Jazz and Rock and Electronica school, but I was trained classically. It was a very hard switch, and I never really got any good at soloing.

That said, I also never really had any real interest in becoming an accomplished jazz soloist. Part of the reason I never became one, and never will.

I'd rather write the music for someone else to play. I'll work with my passion, then they can work with theirs.

I am not presently studying music theory, but I've got a pretty strong command of musical information under my belt.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » 31 Aug 2005 03:43

Ok, I think I've got the last two questions:

Common four-chord turnarounds back to a ii chord:

I-IV-iii7-VI7
I-VII-bVII7-VI7 (nice and chromatic)

A median substitute:

As the median is the third degree of the scale, a median substitute would be substituting a triad built on the median degree for a relatively close chord such as a I or vi chord.

Nate-

Yeah, you've got the basic framework.

Exposition (introduction of first and second theme)--Development (development of the two themes)--Recapitulation (often a restatement of the two themes with minor modifications)

New questions:

1. In the sonata, what differences are there between the first and second themes of the exposition? In what way are these themes modified when they reappear in the recapitulation?

2. Define these cadences: authentic, perfect, imperfect, half, plagal, phrygian.

limester816 · Post by **limester816** » 31 Aug 2005 17:03

This is a funny topic, but here here for music theory! The basic language that makes up music!

brian relly · Post by **brian relly** » 31 Aug 2005 17:10

Who knows anything about "Just" Temperament (/intonation)?

Adam · Post by **Adam** » 01 Sep 2005 18:08

Stephen,

Just intonation (not temperament, as we'll see later) is a system of tuning in which all intervals are derived from an acoustically "pure" third and fifth. Without getting into the acoustics, which can be quite complex, just intonation allows one to have more "euphonious" sounding triads than our present-day system of equal temperament.

Basically, the idea in just intonation is to start from a given tone and adjust the intonation so that one has an acoustically pure third and fifth. This works fine when one stays on this tone, but serious problems arise with the introduction of chromatic notes or when modulating (which is impossible in just intonation). In other words, just intonation produces a few nice-sounding triads, but has serious limitations. For this reason, just intonation is of limited application.

Equal temperament is a system in which acoustic inaccuracies between intervals are spread out evenly. The term temperament denotes those systems that deviate from acoustically "pure" tunings such as the Pythagorean and just intonation system. Equal temperament has its weak points (such as having slightly dissonant thirds) but the advantages for music that is based on a wide variety of keys and modulating outweigh them by far.

brian relly · Post by **brian relly** » 01 Sep 2005 19:40

Oh, wow. What a comprehensible explanation. Thank you so much. You should replace my band teacher. It makes so much sense now that you explained it, he did such a terrible job trying to do that. Ugh.

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 07 Sep 2005 21:44

Nice work adam!!!!
I'm tempted to do some reserch but heres what I got from the top of my head.
1) in a major key the first theme is in tonic and the second theme is in doiminant, usualy with a linking passage or phrase in between. In minor it is typicaly tonic and the relative major. When they are recapitualted, the second theme is ussualy in the tonic as well, wich causes some modification or deletion of the linkning passage.
2)authentic cadence- V to I
perfect authentic cadence- V to I with both chords in root position and top voice resolves by step to the tonic.
imperfect authentic cadence- V to I with either an inversion of one or both chords or the final note being scale degree 3 or 5
half cadence- cadence ending on V
plagal cadence- IV to I cadance, also known as the "amen "cadence
phrygian cadence- in minor a iv6 to V with a half step motion in the bass

Z · Post by Z » 07 Sep 2005 22:40

What a cool thread! I never check this section of modified for some reason.

Stephen - When in Boulder I took a class about the physics of sound with a madman (aka the typical CU Boulder professor) and some cat gave a great presentation on just intonation. You should give a quick listen to the tracks from this disc on amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 6?v=glance
It is called "Just West Coast" and is a good example of what just intonation sounds like.

Off topic: Does anybody else think that studying music as a discipline has helped you with footbag (or vice versa)? Everybody I play footbag with here is a musician (including myself) and I thought that was an exciting coincidence.[/url]

music theory

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