Who invented?

mattkain · Post by **mattkain** » 29 Aug 2005 12:12

Hi Paul,

Paul Agostinelli wrote:matt cross, vasek, jorden (i think), and some other players do swirling sets

Of course, swirling sets are quite common today. In fact, Rippin' was hitting swirling sets long before any of the above mentioned cats picked up a bag. As I recall, there was talk of Rippin' hitting moves like swirling whirl and swirling whirling swirl back in the mid '90s. I was trying to point out that back in the day we did not clearly differentiate between a swirl and a reverse swirl - they were both just called swirl (sort of like the 2 types of around the world). In my post to the old .org list I talk about hitting swirling sets, but was *actually* referring to reverse swirling sets. It's just that the terms didn't really exist to distinguish between the two (although we did say front-back, back-front). I wasn't very clear in my original Oct. post to the list, but I was in fact speaking of reverse swirling set moves (including reverse swirling same side pickup). Anyway, my point was that reverse swirling sets and reverse swirling same side pickup were relatively common in '99 (3 people in my club alone were doing them) so I assume that they have a much older history.

Paul Agostinelli wrote:was the fear/ fudge thing old? because thats all ive known fairy mirage, and fairy illusion to be.

Yes, those comments were also from my email to the list in October, 1999. Fairy sets were actually very uncommon until sometime after 2000. If you dig up old videos like Raw Shred, Sultans of Shred, Skool Daze, Tuan's 95/96 footage, etc., you will be hard-pressed to find anyone doing fairy sets. I learned fairy set from Jake Walden (no longer plays) somewhere around late '98/early '99. In fact, he was the first person that I ever saw duck a fairy set - probably around early '99. At that time, fairy mirage and fairy reverse mirage (for all you noobs we used to call an illusion a reverse mirage) had no nickname. We began using "fear" and "fudge" in Madison sometime in early '99, and I later sent an email to the list proposing that those names be used for the moves.

Matt Kain

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 29 Aug 2005 12:40

Actually Matt, Jason Crook was hitting fairy everything before the Fear name came out and at that time Fear was called Fairy Smasher. It was also around that time that I named Pixie rev. legover "Paste" in early 99. I'm sure it was hit, it just needed a name as did a lot of tricks.

I liked Fear better than Fairy Smasher though. You really pissed off my friend Barrett with that name (cause he named it Fairy Smasher), but I'm sure he's over it now some 6 years later.

~peace
Damon

mattkain · Post by **mattkain** » 29 Aug 2005 13:14

FlexThis wrote:...and at that time Fear was called Fairy Smasher.

Yeah, I should correct myself. It wasn't that fairy mirage didn't have a name, it's that it didn't have a *well-established* name. I don't think anyone in the Midwest would claim that we invented fairy mirage (not that you guys did either), simply that we began using the name that stuck - Fear. Who knows who really invented fairy mirage. We would have to dig back into the early '90s (our earlier?) to figure this out. Certainly your friend didn't so I'm not sure why he would have been upset about his name not sticking around. Anyway, Fairy Smasher (a pretty egregious name in my opinion) may have been coined first, but the bottomline is that it was a name that never really caught on. We could dig back even further and bring up the whole thunder/lightning debate - the two competing terms for pixie/fairy. This debate predates Fear/Fairy Smasher by quite some time.

Anyway, I'm sure Jason Crook and many others were doing fairy tricks long before consistent names were applied to them just as many of us in the Midwest were (Jon Nagela of the CIC is another person that had some pretty good fairy sets back in the late '90s). This is just how it is with many of the primary moves in footbag. During the nascent stages of our sport's development, names evolved and changed until eventually certain conventions ossified.

MK

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 29 Aug 2005 13:33

Right! Lord knows the only thing that came out of NC in the late 90s was a bunch of farmer equipment.

I remember Steve Goldberg telling me who the inventor of all the fairy stuff was but that he doesn't kick anymore. Back then names weren't that important. Guess it really isn't that important today either.

~peace
Damon

mattkain · Post by **mattkain** » 29 Aug 2005 13:51

Jeremy wrote:Not sure about clipper stall - I'd assume Kenny because he invented pretty much all the basic moves but I've never heard that he specifically invented it.

Kenny might have done quite a bit for the sport, but no way did he invent clipper. This moves predates Kenny S. and modern footbag by quite some time and was probably immediately incorporated into footbag since it already existed in the same form in many other sports (in the 1982 film, DRAGON LORD, Jackie Chan can be seen doing clippers with a shuttlecock). It's like trying to determine who invented the toe stall or, even better, the kick. We'll never know. It's almost irrelevant since the move itself is practically incorporated within the specific domain of implicit actions that define what our sport is.

What I am curious about is the modern name. Who coined the term "clipper?"

MK

EDIT: Date correction

Tripp · Post by **Tripp** » 29 Aug 2005 13:56

Wow, this topic is sweet.

Although it would be tough, someone should make an alphabetical list of all the people who invented certain tricks. I know it would be impossible to get them all, but a lot would be cool. Ya know.. just because.

james · Post by **james** » 29 Aug 2005 14:34

I didn't ask if someone COULD hit it, I asked if anyone HAS hit it.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 29 Aug 2005 14:39

On the Jason Crook note, wasn't there something about "fairy" being called "crooked"? I remember Eli had labeled all of the fairy moves as crooked (or something?) on Zohar Pro. did that come about actually before fairy? When did fairy come into use? (Sorry if I missed the answer -- I skimmed...)

Tripp · Post by **Tripp** » 29 Aug 2005 14:42

Maybe that was Fairy same side? I'm not too sure either.

mc · Post by mc » 29 Aug 2005 14:50

james wrote:I didn't ask if someone COULD hit it, I asked if anyone HAS hit it.

Matt Cross has.

Just now. Barefoot, outside.

I name it BiardaMichal (BEAR-da MEE-how) unless someone else has hit it, which wouldn't surprise me, as it didn't take that long, and I've been drinking... I'm going to put shoes on now and try it.

edit: Well. That didn't take too long.

What else hasn't been hit? this is fun.

mattkain · Post by **mattkain** » 29 Aug 2005 14:51

Erik Chan wrote:On the Jason Crook note, wasn't there something about "fairy" being called "crooked"? I remember Eli had labeled all of the fairy moves as crooked (or something?) on Zohar Pro. did that come about actually before fairy?

No. Fairy came first.

Somewhere (I'll try to find it tonight) there is a post by, I think, Rippin' explaining how fairy/pixie were invented simultaneously on the East Coast and West Coast. One group of shredders started using the names pixie/fairy, the other groups started using the names thunder/lightning. Pixie/fairy obviously caught on.

Crooked was Eli's attempt to give credit to someone who was one of the best at the set (kind of like renaming stepping "vaseking" since he's so good at the set) and at the same time (though I'm sure he would deny it) get rid of a name he didn't like. It never caught on. Still, I get a kick out of people single-handedly trying to change terminology or restrict the natural linguistic development of our sport. It really doesn't matter who originally named what, it only matters what what terms become popular. And this is entirely up to the whims of the footbag community.

Bee sauce, bee sauce, bee sauce, bee sauce, BEE SAUCE.

MK

Xain · Post by **Xain** » 29 Aug 2005 15:01

Who hit triple atw first?

Paul Agostinelli · Post by **Paul Agostinelli** » 29 Aug 2005 15:10

how about zulu atomsmasher, has it been hit?

~NEL~

james · Post by **james** » 29 Aug 2005 15:26

Well Matt I thought that move was a little harder than you make it out to be...maybe you're just drunk and you thought you hit it...i'm a little drunk too, i'ma go for dt barraging double switch barefoot.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 29 Aug 2005 15:52

I'm glad you remembered that Matt.

Jason's nickname was Crooked Crook, or "The Beater".

I have footage from 98 on my Mac at home that has some primo Damon and Jason before worlds. One day I'll try to pull them out (they are part of a shockwave/director CD) if I can and post them.

Jason wasn't the only guy doing Fairies at the time either, our buddy Barret could hit just as many fairy moves, but he wasn't a strong guiltless player like Jason. I also remember that Eli didn't like Pixie/Fairy but he wasn't the only one.

Anyways - glad you remembered Matt, cause I straight up forgot about that.

~peace
Damon

mc · Post by mc » 29 Aug 2005 16:03

so james, have you hit it?

come ooooon, it wasn't that hard. and I definitely hit it

I'm not drunk, just 2 beers in me... quantum set to right in front of the hip of the leg that's about to symp whirl, lean a little bit away from the symp whirl, and baboom.

good luck on that downtime 4 dex

mitko · Post by **mitko** » 29 Aug 2005 16:09

who invente sunil and janny walker....

i'm jocking
i wonder who invented the miraging and illusioning sets

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 29 Aug 2005 16:27

Paul Agostinelli wrote:how about zulu atomsmasher, has it been hit?

~NEL~

Yes, but lets keep the thread separate. There is another thread dedicated to asking if moves have been hit, this thread is for questions regarding who was first to hit certain components.

mattkain · Post by **mattkain** » 29 Aug 2005 16:39

mitko wrote: i wonder who invented the miraging and illusioning sets

I'm not sure specifically about these two, but I do know that when Sunil came to Worlds in '99 he was hitting quantum set (I remember seeing him hit plasma, which he then claimed was his "hardest toe move"). At the time, I had never seen or heard of anyone else hitting this set. I remember Ian Dubman picking quantum set up during Worlds by watching Sunil. I cannot say for sure that Sunil invented quantum, but it surely must have been somewhere around this time, and he absolutely popularized the set.

Atomic is even stickier. I'm not positive who hit the first atomic move, but I can relay a little story about the history of Legbeater which was probably one of the first atomic moves (possibly even the first). Anyway, here is a brief quote about the invention of Legbeater in an email from Dennis Jones that was posted by Eric Wulff several years ago:

********************************************
"Dimitri and I were done skool'n one day and, though our bodies were spent on freestyle, our minds were not. So we decided to watch some freestyle video. We were just learning blur so we kept slow-mo'n the move. I had just gotten a new VCR that allowed me to slow-mo backwards.
The minute I slow-mo'd blur backwards I knew it was a new move right away. In fact Dimitri hit it that same night. We did not have a name for it but..."

- Dennis "D-Money" Jones
********************************************

Whether or not this was the invention of atomic is unclear (I would guess that it is), but this is undeniably an important piece of the puzzle concerning the set's development.

MK

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 29 Aug 2005 16:49

To answer Paul Agostinelli's question re: zulu atomsmasher, yes, I have hit it. Im not sure if I "invented" it, but I hit it about 19 months ago or so. Its on a video in my (Jeremy Mirken's) .org gallery.