Adds, Xdex, PDX.....

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 01 Sep 2005 17:22

Interesting. Will it still be a 3 add for you when it's officially a 4 add according to the IFPA? I wouldn't doubt that that will happen eventually.

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 02 Sep 2005 03:45

I was going to write a novel here about adds but I'll give up.
Just don't rate adds based on how you feel. They are based on components.
Also, I don't see any point telling opinions about some tricks difficoulty here. Adds are definetly not about opinions.
Argh. I just can't get it how someone can say "I see that there are two full dexes. I just don't see any reason for xdex." or "There isn't enough twist for me so it doesn't deserve paradox."
WTF!?!?!!!111

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 02 Sep 2005 06:51

Just don't rate adds based on how you feel. They are based on components.

Okay, then, tell us all exactly how far whirls have a paradox component.

Think about it and you know that we only call them paradox because they "feel" like they deserve more ADDs than an ordinary whirl. Yet they still don't seem meet the definition of Paradox.

As for X-Dex, that whole system is simply based on somebody's opinion that some dexes are harder than others, and so he invented a new component to categorize this feeling. Its not as though there is in fact another component present in Atom Smasher that is not there in Eggbeater. Really they're both Dex - Dex - Delay

sergio · Post by **sergio** » 02 Sep 2005 10:13

Yes, paradox isn't really a component.
Even if that's not a good definition of paradox, it is possible to do a pdx mirage without a double hip pivot. But it's not possible to do a mirage without a dex, nor a toe stall without a delay.
Adds are not about the number of components in a trick anymore (example already given on the first page with nuclear ss blender and pdx blender), they are supposed to reflect difficulty, pdx and xdex wouldn't exist otherwise.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 02 Sep 2005 10:21

See, that's one difference between newbie and oldskoolers.

Oldskoolers knew that adds were a way to measure components, and did not reflect the difficulty of a trick. Hence we were cool with flaming tard being a four, and ps whirl being a 5.

New schoolers think adds are a difficulty system, and anythign that is harder they want to give more adds till it has the same count as other tricks that feel equally hard.

In any case, XDEX is perhaps a step forward, but it's still a cludge building on a system that was never designed for difficutly.

If adds were meant to measure difficulty, the different add catergories would not be of equal value. Stalls would be worth almost no difficulty points, while dexes and spins would be full difficulty points. Seriously, the stall is worth about as many points as being able to stand on a skateboard with one foot while pushing with the other. It's mandatory, and not a consideration in the difficulty of the trick.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 02 Sep 2005 10:51

Word up Cameron!!!

~peace
Damon

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 02 Sep 2005 11:02

Actually, I'd suggest that stalls be worth NEGATIVE difficulty. Really, how much harder is it to play guiltlessly without stall than with them? Even if you were to equalize for that one extra point the stall adds to each move, its still easier to play guiltlessly with stalls than TILTLESSLY without them. Stalls don't make the game harder, they make it easier.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 02 Sep 2005 11:06

I disagree with negative difficulty scores. I don't believe you can loose difficulty points, they can only be gained. So, non-stall tricks would have higher difficulty scores than the stalled counterversions, IMO.

But, yes, I agree. So clearly we can see that using adds as a measurement of difficulty is completely flawed from the very beginning.

krawallier · Post by **krawallier** » 02 Sep 2005 11:07

i really don't see the point of not accepting xdex...

adds were thought of to reflect the complexity of a move but have been constantly used for measuring difficulty, IMO this is why the idea of pdx was added to the system - to get an add value that tries to reflect the difficulty - same with xdex.
adds are not designed, but used to measure difficulty. the system has many flaws, which pdx and xdex try to even out... of course this is nowhere near perfect.

In any case, XDEX is perhaps a step forward, but it's still a cludge building on a system that was never designed for difficutly.

IMO that is still better than using a sytem to measure difficulty that doesn't even try to measure it...

about toe barrage, it TOTALLY is legit for xdex. it has two full dexes. it meets that definition. making it a 4 also reflects the increase of difficulty in comparison to clipper set barrage.
same with fusion. it meets the definition and it is harder... why would you deny the xdex then. fury gets xdex and it is its reverse, i doubt you wouldn't give fury an xdex.
so how can you loose an xdex if you do the trick in reverse - by definition xdex can't be lost if you reverse the trick...

i don't get the point... why would you rather use a system that doesnt't even try to reflect difficulty - instead of making all the changes to the better to a system that does a fairly good job reflecting the difficulty and being open for changes to the better...

m

ps: tap, in any style doesn't get xdex...

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 02 Sep 2005 11:14

I don't believe fury gets xdex for the same reason i don't believe terrage gets xdex. Terrage is a dex and some change. Fury is a dex, some change, and a dex. ( a dex, a half dex, and a dex )

Two complete dexes in succession can not be found in fury. It's only five adds.

I understand newbies need the adds, but that's just cuz you don't understand how little they matter. The judges are your peers. The results are never accurate and will be fudged to make who ever they think should win come out on top. Right ? Shred30 is not a footbag event, nor are the other shred events. The IFC is that far behind the curve. Routines are freestyle, and adds don't mean crap. Pretty much everyone maxes that card.

krawallier · Post by **krawallier** » 02 Sep 2005 12:29

how can toe blur have more of a dex to qualify for xdex than fury? furious set is very much like quantum, just with MORE dex...

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 02 Sep 2005 12:33

You guys are arguing the obvious. Even with X-dex and Pdx the system is still flawed.

Scrap it already and try again.

It's like twisting off a soda bottle cap to see if you're a winner. If you are it will say so, if you aren't it will say so.

The cap is a loser, stop looking at the damn cap it ain't gonna change.

~peace
Damon

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 02 Sep 2005 12:39

LET 0=BAG ;
LET | = DEXING LEG
LET \ = NON DEXING LEG
TOE BLUR
--------------

\O |

BLUR
--------------
\|0

See that extra motion now !

Word Damon, this bottle cap is a looser.

wolfpac444 · Post by **wolfpac444** » 02 Sep 2005 13:10

Tsiangkun wrote:LET 0=BAG ;
LET | = DEXING LEG
LET \ = NON DEXING LEG
TOE BLUR
--------------

\O |

BLUR
--------------
\|0

FURY
--------------
\|0 ---> \0 |

You can think of it as (muted) stepping ss toe blur.

Nathan · Post by **Nathan** » 02 Sep 2005 13:45

I dont think anyone who can hit fury is a newbie that "needs" the adds.

ted · Post by **ted** » 02 Sep 2005 13:50

I don't think anybody needs any adds.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 02 Sep 2005 13:51

Tsiangkun wrote:New schoolers think adds are a difficulty system, and anythign that is harder they want to give more adds till it has the same count as other tricks that feel equally hard.

Revised:

New schoolers [want] adds [to be] a difficulty system, and anythign that is harder they want to give more adds till it has the same count as other tricks that feel equally hard.

Something I can get behind. By the time PS whirl is a 7 and Nemesis is a 13, I imagine the system as a whole will be pretty damn accurate.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 02 Sep 2005 14:10

sounds about right

but yeah...this didnt seem like a problem at all when i was first starting, but its really starting to irritate me. im very close to joining the fuck adds crew, but im not sure i have the creativity yet

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 02 Sep 2005 14:10

word up again! There are alot of moves that when one little component is added, about 3 times the difficulty goes with it.

Example:

Eggbeater vs. Atomic Grifter

~peace
Damon

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 03 Sep 2005 00:56

Now the conversation is looking better. We found the problem (again), finnish it this time.

Playing footbag with add system is like smacking your testicles against a wall.