Katrina

[slapdash21]

i hate the lack of edit button...

also interesting. MA offered to take in 2,500 "refugees" (i HATE the use of that word in this case...may technically be accurate...) from the area affected , and house them for free for 6 months in a converted army base (the soldiers that had been staying at the base are going to NO to help clean up) with free food, clothes, lodging, etc for 6 months...they were supposed to be coming by plane...yesterday? i think. well, no plane ever came...turns out almost NONE of the displaced wish to move to boston, even temporarily. they were struggling to find even 100 or so people or were willing...
word is that they are going to get together any who wants to in any case and bring em, but it wont be anywhere near the offered 2,500.

[Tsiangkun]

A general of the Northern Command tells the BBC his relief force was in place over the precious final days, and was only awaiting presidential orders. The USS Bataan, it turns out, was offshore all along . . .

This was the ship I was refering to, with freshwater producing capabilities, and an onboard hospital.

All it needed was the commander in chief to step up and say the magic word. Our fearless leader played golf, went to fund raisers, and pretty much did everything but give the okay to move in with the help.

[HighDemonslayer]

Maybe this is the nature of our "safety net".

Relief cannot be delivered by anyone BUT the Federal government.

To allow others to contribute would possibly make the helpers look good, and as a result, the Fed look bad.

Thousands in NO, or millions in the U.S., are expendable to maintain the illusion of the nanny-state.


To me, this looks like the ONE and ONLY time that the president has decided to stop foreign-encroachment into our country.......


Except for Mexico's request not to pursue illegals in the disaster zone.

The administration has agreed not to verify citizenship in the disaster relief.

Now, relief efforts can be diverted to non-citizens,with a percentage sent out of the country.


Pretty pathetic, that the leader of a failed state (Mexico) can influence our president to give amnesty to lighter skinned non-citizens, while at the same time , "ethnically cleansing" the American-citizen blacks from their homes.

------------------------------------


This also demonstrates the pathetic lack of return on our tax dollars.


Don't think that this is indicative of Bush and LA only.

Rest assured, a Hillary administration will be just as nakedly imcompetent, but will play a better PR game. ( and send me to a "re-education camp")

-n

[Tsiangkun]

This dissaster exposes the broken contract between a government and a people.

The US is very close to becoming a failed state.

[Jeremy]

To me, this looks like the ONE and ONLY time that the president has decided to stop foreign-encroachment into our country.......


Except for Mexico's request not to pursue illegals in the disaster zone.

The administration has agreed not to verify citizenship in the disaster relief.

Now, relief efforts can be diverted to non-citizens,with a percentage sent out of the country.


Pretty pathetic, that the leader of a failed state (Mexico) can influence our president to give amnesty to lighter skinned non-citizens, while at the same time , "ethnically cleansing" the American-citizen blacks from their homes.

------------------------------------


This also demonstrates the pathetic lack of return on our tax dollars.


Don't think that this is indicative of Bush and LA only.

Rest assured, a Hillary administration will be just as nakedly imcompetent, but will play a better PR game. ( and send me to a "re-education camp")

-n

'


A couple of things: First I think it's great to see some humanitarianism from the Bush admin regarding illegals. I haven't heard anything about this but if what you said is true I think that's a good thing. This is a disaster that has destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of people. When disasters like this happen it is an amazing feeling to see how the world pulls together and puts aside differences to help out other people in trouble - not other people from a particular country in trouble - just people helping people. When the Tsunami disaster happened in the Indian Ocean - I think one of my proudest moments was performing a footbag routine as part of a charity concert to raise money for the event. I didn't worry who that money was going to - I was just stoked that I could do something with the thing I love to help other people who need help. I think it's great to see that the US government is prepared to help people who have had their lives destroyed regardless of nationality or legal status - I think that's a really good thing and I think it says a lot about your character personally that you don't want aid to go to people who have survived such a horrible and traumatic disaster - who probably have lost everything they own in the world.


I also think it's very unfair to accuse the unelected Clinton administration of being just as incompetent. There seems to be a very strong push in the US to discredit Clinton before she runs for office. I'm guessing it's either because you're afraid she'll be very popular or you just don't a woman to be the leader of the US. Regardless of your motivations - I think that was a pointless and inappropriate attack and I would say that the Clinton administration certainly couldn't have handled this disaster anyworse than bush did and there is no reason to assume they wouldn't do a better job. PR is also very important. Hearing strong and accurate words from the leader of a country gives people strength and hope - hearing lies and uncertainty from a leader makes people worry a lot more - it really does make a difference. So if the only difference between Clinton and Bush were Clinton having better PR - that still means she would handle things better. Anyway this is all hypothetical - Clinton hasn't even been elected yet and won't be for a few years to come. I just think launching into such an attack against her really makes you look vindictive and heartless - it appears that you're just using this topic to put forward your own political agenda rather than commenting on the real issue at hand. I think you do this a lot and really it means that people take your posts a lot less seriously as a result.


Interesting thoughts from Cameron about the US about to become a failed state. I'm in the middle of reading "Collapse: How societies choose to fail or survive" by Jared Diamond - who is a fantastic author. I'd really recommend the book. I don't know if I could draw many conclusions about the US at this stage from what I've read but certainly plenty of societies have become very very powerful - so powerful that you couldn't imagine them ever failing and then have done just that in a very short (relative) period of time - so on that basis it's concievable that the US could collapse soon especially with all the resource problems that are predicted in the next 20 - 50 years...

[C-Fan]

Rest assured, a Hillary administration will be just as nakedly imcompetent, but will play a better PR game. -n

I won`t address the incompetence claim, because I really think it would be hard for anybody to have handled Katrina more incompetently than Bush, but regarding the PR thing, I will agree with you. Bush`s PR was pretty impressive.

*Katrina strikes, wipes out New Orleans, thousands dead. Bush finally ends his monthlong vacation in Texas to comment on it. What does he say? He reminisces about his crazy party college days in the N.O. Seriously, that was his reaction. Then, he realizes he should comment on the flood. So what does he say? He sympathizes with Trent Lott, because his mansion got destroyed. And as an example of the will of the people of the South to rebuild, he cites the inspiring example of, well, Trent Lott, and speaks of how Trent Lott plans to rebuild a 7 million dollar mansion again, and boy, how he looks forward to going and visiting. *



Could Bush be any more out of sync with reality? THAT was the initial PR of the Bush administration in response to Katrina. In the next few days, everybody commented how shittily this administration was responding to Katrina, so Bush finally steps up and gives an inspiring speech to comfort the displaced and galvanize the relief efforts of the country. Oh wait, actually, his speech was just an endless laundry list of supplies which were scheduled to be sent down there.

Seriously, in times of crisis, PR does matter. Bush couldn`t have made himself seem less caring if he tried, and he lost a valuable chance to round up support from the rest of the country to help out.

You say Hilary would have been as incompetent as Bush, but I see no evidence of this. You then say "she would have done PR better" like its an insult, but I actually think that better PR would have been a huge improvement over the way Bush handled things.

[HighDemonslayer]

Jeremy wrote:
-------------------------
(...)
When the Tsunami disaster happened in the Indian Ocean - I think one of my proudest moments was performing a footbag routine as part of a charity concert to raise money for the event.
(...)
----------------------------
Using footbag as a vehicle for charity is great. Teaching or doing demos or generating funds can be very rewarding .

Jeremy wrote:
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(....)
I didn't worry who that money was going to-.
(....)
---------------------------

Really? So if your efforts didn't translate into actual help, that didn't matter to you?

Your efforts may have bought expensive whiskey and male prostitutes for a local gangster.


I prefer to help out in ways that I can observe, not just because i'm cheap. There's tons of fraud out there.


Jeremy wrote:
-------------------------
(....)
I think it's great to see that the US government is prepared to help people who have had their lives destroyed regardless of nationality or legal status - I think that's a really good thing and I think it says a lot about your character....(...)
-----------------------------

I don't have a problem with "the US government (being) prepared to help people who have had their lives destroyed regardless of ... "

I have a problem with our neighbor who says "Give our criminals a free pass while you move in to enforce the law on the blacks."


It should be a slap in the face to poor ,American storm victims, especially blacks to learn that disaster aid will go to the people who have stolen their jobs.


Jeremy wrote:
-------------------------
(....)
I also think it's very unfair to accuse the unelected Clinton administration of being just as incompetent.

I just think launching into such an attack against her really makes you look vindictive and heartless(...)
(.....)
--------------------------------------

Heartless? for attacking Hillary? hahaha

Most of America probably hates that fucking bitch. Don't let her near your balls. Just ask Bill.



Jeremy wrote:
-------------------------
(....)

Interesting thoughts from Cameron about the US about to become a failed state. I'm in the middle of reading "Collapse: How societies choose to fail or survive" (.....) I don't know if I could draw many conclusions about the US at this stage from what I've read but certainly plenty of societies have become very very powerful - so powerful that you couldn't imagine them ever failing and then have done just that (....) it's concievable that the US could collapse soon especially with all the resource problems that are predicted in the next 20 - 50 years...
------------------------

The failed state indicators you use for most nations don't apply to the US. The US will go out with a bang, not a crumble.


Oh, I totally agree that America could fall, or be crippled. There is totally the arrogance of invincibility, while we are robbed blind, spending recklessly, industry disappearing, and being stabbed in the back from within and without.

I don't know if the resource problem is our alone. Push comes to shove, we might smack down our most loved neighbor or ally to ensure "resources".

C-Fan wrote:
----------------------------------------
(...)You then say "she would have done PR better" like its an insult.
-----------------------------------

No, that's not an insult. When Clinton (either one) gets the proper media "participation", they shine like a crazy diamond.


Bush sending in 10,000 troops to remove all the blacks at gunpoint (to save their lives) doesn't sound like a PR victory to me.

But Hillary could pull it off, possibly.




-n

[HighDemonslayer]

You know if you look at this from an environmental standpoint, the disaster and flood is a great thing.

If "3 million people go without power" for a period of time, then there is that much less fossil fuels being burned.

The oil rigs being down is a good thing, obviously.

The near-doubling of gas prices is good thing also. Poor Americans live in luxury compared to the rest of the world's masses, so you need to strain their budgets to discourage fossil fuel use.

All the people who died in the floods, they are no longer consuming fossil fuels, or generating un-sustainable amounts of garbage.


So the rest of the world should give each other a "high-five", because the earth's fragile eco-system will survive longer, thanks to this destruction of a section of America's population and economy.

[C-Fan]

You know if you look at this from an environmental standpoint, the disaster and flood is a great thing.
.

You know, when you don`t know what you`re talking about, and you talk a lot of BS, it just makes you look like a moron.

[HighDemonslayer]

When all you can do is call me a moron, I must have uncovered some truth that makes you uncomfortable.




Yet by quoting me , I get to revisit that sentence. I should have wrote:

-----------------------------------------------------------
"You know if you look at this from an environmentalist standpoint, the disaster and flood is a great thing."
------------------------------------------------------------

[footbinc]

Jeremy wrote:

Jeremy wrote:
-------------------------
(....)
I didn't worry who that money was going to-.
(....)
---------------------------

Really? So if your efforts didn't translate into actual help, that didn't matter to you?

Your efforts may have bought expensive whiskey and male prostitutes for a local gangster.

it wasnt a local gangster, it was kevin regamey, and yes, it was whisky and male prostitues. I also think he invited mokhale...

[slapdash21]

i hate the lack of edit button...

also interesting. MA offered to take in 2,500 "refugees" (i HATE the use of that word in this case...may technically be accurate...) from the area affected , and house them for free for 6 months in a converted army base (the soldiers that had been staying at the base are going to NO to help clean up) with free food, clothes, lodging, etc for 6 months...they were supposed to be coming by plane...yesterday? i think. well, no plane ever came...turns out almost NONE of the displaced wish to move to boston, even temporarily. they were struggling to find even 100 or so people or were willing...
word is that they are going to get together any who wants to in any case and bring em, but it wont be anywhere near the offered 2,500.

this wound up being even more interesting than i anticipated...MA governor Mitt Romney spends millions on preparing the cape cod military base for the incoming "refugees" who never showed up, and never has Mitt looked better...he looked generous, poised, organized, like a sheltering wall for incoming "refugees," and the citizens loved him. And everyone knows that Mitt is bidding for the presidential race in 08. but its now definite that the evacuees wont be showing up and the entire operation has been suspended, volunteers sent home, donations and govt funds possibly wasted. All Mitt can do now is try to get a refund...but his image has suffered greatly from this. many news outlets are suggesting this wont help his bid for the presidency...yah know, because the chances for the republicans were so good anyway. personally even i dont like Mitt...he doesnt have a firm stance on anything. even Bush has stronger political lines!

[Jeremy]

Jeremy wrote:
-------------------------
(....)
I didn't worry who that money was going to-.
(....)
---------------------------

Really? So if your efforts didn't translate into actual help, that didn't matter to you?

Your efforts may have bought expensive whiskey and male prostitutes for a local gangster.

What I mean, and I'm sure you knew this and chose to misunderstand me, is that I didn't care if they were mexican's or muslims or ex crims or anything. The money was going to the red cross to help rebuild and feed the people who had their lives devistated by the Tsunami - beyond that I didn't care who the individuel people were. Clearly that statement was in responce to you complaining that job stealing mexicans who had their lives destroyed would get aid meant for hardworking American's. This concept is a fallacy in any respect. If businesses are prepared to pay illegal wages then they are the people at fault - not the people prepared to work for illegal wages - but this is a long and off topic subject.

Heartless? for attacking Hillary? hahaha

Most of America probably hates that fucking bitch. Don't let her near your balls. Just ask Bill.

You are heartless for so blatently using the deaths of 10,000 or more people so that you can launch a completely unrelated political attack on somebody. It would be like me using the New Orleans event to attack Australia's current PM - there is no relation between John Howard and Katrina and there is no relation between Hillary Clinton and the responce to this event. Your attack was completely unfounded. It maybe be true that she would have done just as bad a job - but to speculate in such a manner makes it look like you care more about pushing your political agenda then about the thousands of dead and homeless. It's very insensitive and paints a very bad picture of you as a person.

You know if you look at this from an environmental standpoint, the disaster and flood is a great thing.

I am pretty sure you will not be able to find a single environmental group that says that. I work for the Wilderness Society - the oldest and largest environmental group in Australia and I can say with all confidence that the Wilderness Society thinks that Katrina was an enourmas tragedy that can not been seen in a positive light at all. Possibly it demonstrates the need to address climate change - but climate change is a very complicated issue and to say that the force of the cyclone was definitely caused by climate change would show a lack of understanding on behalf of the person making the claim - rather than being a true statement. It's definitely possible that climate change had some kind of effect - but it's impossible to accurately speculate as to what that effect was.

[Moxie]

Here's an article from the Shelbyville Gazette, Shelbyville TN. which I found interesting.

http://www.t-g.com/story/1116806.html

A co-owner of Shelbyville-based Gowen-Smith Chapel has been deployed to Gulfport, Miss., to help with recovery since Hurricane Katrina, and his business partner here has described the grim task there.

"DMort is telling us to expect up to 40,000 bodies," Dan Buckner said, quoting officials with the Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team, a volunteer arm of Homeland Security.

His partner, Dan Hicks, of Paducah, Ky., was deployed Monday. Buckner, of Dickson, is on standby. Their funeral home is one of several collection sites for donations to be taken to the Red Cross in Fayetteville on Wednesday for transfer to places in need.

The 40,000 estimate does "not include the number of disinterred remains that have been displaced from ... mausoleums," Buckner told the Times-Gazette Monday.

Since New Orleans is below sea level, in-ground burial is impossible.

Public health protection and identification of bodies are tasks for DMort, Buckner said. Teams include morticians, medical examiners, coroners, pathologists, anthropologists, odontologists, dental assistants, photographers, police, DNA, X-ray, evidence, fingerprint, mental health and computer specialists, and others such as heavy equipment operators.

"Until they search each and every remaining house and remove all the fallen materials ... they will not know how many people are there," Buckner said.

"The National Association of Funeral Directors and Embalmers will be making assignments to coordinate with local officials ... [for] preparation of bodies," he said. "They'll probably establish a mortuary there where bodies can be taken so forensics can identify bodies and families can decide what they want to do.

"My personal opinion is they will be recovering bodies for 30 ... to 120 days," Buckner said.

That's because of "the sheer destruction, the rubble that will have to be removed and to find bodies in attics and yards and the water," he said. People "were told to go to their attic. Then the water came up and they had no way to escape.

"Firemen chopped holes in roofs and found bodies."

Without anything to do for them, they moved on, he said.

Public health is "definitely" a major concern as time goes on, Buckner said.

He anticipated volunteers would serve for two weeks and then be relieved as a rotation schedule is developed.

Buckner, 67, attended a funeral directors association conference in Chicago where he received training so he might be prepared for such work. He's been in the mortuary business for 45 years.

"I feel a moral obligation to help people," Buckner said. "We serve people in dire need and if ever there was a time when people need ... it's now."

He anticipates the emergency mortuary will receive bodies from national guardsmen, fire fighters and others such as rescue squad teams.

DMort teams in the funeral directors' region that includes Tennessee have also been deployed to Biloxi, Miss., Anniston, Ala., Baton Rouge, La., and Houston, Tex.

Gowen-Smith Chapel "has collected a massive amount of food and necessary items" for survivors of the hurricane on the Gulf coast, Buckner said. "The people of Bedford County ... have been very receptive."

[HighDemonslayer]

When I said local gangster, I meant in the Indo-Malaysian area. I don't know about Kevin's elaborate crime webs.



OK, so you know the money went to Red Cross, that's probably a safe bet. (unless anyone can comment on rampant corruption there also.)

-------------------------------------------------
Am I really heartlessly "using" the victims to launch an attack on Hillary?

Hillary seems to waste no time calling for higher taxes, and a "commission" to investigate what needs to be covered-up.


Is everybody who has "used" this disaster to attack political opponents heartless?

Attacking Bush or his imcompetent FEMA could be construed as heartless.

Attacking NO incompetent government could be construed as heartless.

Criticism of any public official is heartless political manoevering.

Given the horrible tragedy that has occured, criticism is hearby off-limits.


Trying to paint me a heartless meany is just a way to sidestep the uncomfortable issues that my sometimes-sick sense of humor brings to the table.


--------------------------------
Armed Mexican Troops Invade US
Eyewitnesses: Under cover of aid, combat ready soldiers roll into Texas

http://infowars.com/articles/us/mexican ... _armed.htm

---------------------------------

Why they need to be armed when they aren't even going to NO is puzzling.




-n

[Jeremy]

-------------------------------------------------
Am I really heartlessly "using" the victims to launch an attack on Hillary?

Hillary seems to waste no time calling for higher taxes, and a "commission" to investigate what needs to be covered-up.


Is everybody who has "used" this disaster to attack political opponents heartless?

Attacking Bush or his imcompetent FEMA could be construed as heartless.

Attacking NO incompetent government could be construed as heartless.

Criticism of any public official is heartless political manoevering.

Given the horrible tragedy that has occured, criticism is hearby off-limits.


Trying to paint me a heartless meany is just a way to sidestep the uncomfortable issues that my sometimes-sick sense of humor brings to the table.

No - clearly the handling of the disaster could have been better and clearly if we are to learn from our mistakes we have to address them. Maybe some politicians are using this disaster for their own means and maybe they aren't - if something like this happened in Australia I would expect my local representative or their party to launch a full enquiry into the issue and I'd be very disappointed with it if they were happy to let such unfortuanate events go without discussing them.

Launching attacks on people who had no power to control anything in the issue and speculating that they would have fucked up just as much as somebody else is a completely different issue and I'm sure that you either know that or are a lot more stupid than you pretend to be. I think it's the former but it's hard to tell.

It's really pointless to get into debates with you Nathen - you really say stupid things that make you look like a horrible person who only cares about himself. Maybe that's the case. Anyway I see no point in responding to you on any political topic any further as it seems clear that you purposefully misinterpret what people say just to start fights. I think ignoring you is definitly the best option as I have no intention of fighting with you and don't want to waste my time explaining such simple and clear concepts. I really really urge you to research from independant sources before stating opinions on anything.

[Blackend]

Wow, it seems that this topic has caused quite a controversy. I am pissed at the lack of action by the US to evacuate people from NO, even more pissed at the UN (it all stems from WW I and its aftermath of entangling alliances; the UN is just the latest, though, it has done it's good in the past, I admit; it's worked so far, at least), but I'm also getting tired of seeing everyone's bickery on the matter. It seems on this topic, if you don't agree with one person, the other just gets pissed. Footbag doesn't need that. Anywho, yes, we should have been there faster, but, Dubya was on his fanny on his hick ranch in Texas. What we (the US) need to focus on is rebuilding the oil refinerys that were destroyed, while at the same time, rebuilding Orleans and helping the people who were struck by that damned hurricane; at the same time, they did know a storm was coming. I guess that's one advantage I have by living up here is we don't get hurricanes.

On another note, doesn't Orleans remind you a bit of movies like Escape from New York or Mad Max or whatever movies about the destruction of civilization and man's survival?

Oh yeah, about survival, I forget who was bitching about Orleans being every man/woman for themselves, but here's my two cents. Yes, it is wrong for people to be pushing and shoving, but, if you put yourself in their shoes and you're in a pickle like they are, what would you be concerend about? The safetey of yourself and/or your family or the safety of some random douche you don't know? I'm not excusing it, but before you can point the blame, think of what you would do in that case.

[Jeremy]

A couple of things:

Firstly I think you blame at the UN is completely unfounded and ridiculous. I would be annoyed if the UN decided to spend a great deal of money on a problem that the government of the country involved already has the wealth and resources to deal with entirely by itself. The fact that this disaster effected the US makes it completely different to the disasters that effect other parts of the world. Everyday about 40,000 people starve to death. Personally I think that should be much more of a priority then spending money on a country that could solve that starvation problem using about 1% of it's military budget each year. I really don't know what you're expecting the UN to do in this situation.


Secondly about your comments about survival - from all the latest reports I've read, there was very little "anarchy" and very little "crazed drug fueled looters" running around - almost all those reports were media beat ups spurred on by misleading comments from Mayor Ray Nagin. So there wasn't really a great deal of violence as was originally reported and it now seems likely that there were no crazed armed looters.

[Blackend]

I suppose you're right there, Jeremy. I might be a bit rash in my views, but I am starting to see your point of view. To make a bunch of people here happy, I admit I was wrong on some of my views. Stop bashing me because of my views. I don't hold anyone here in any less respect because of their views, although I do become annoyed by people starting a thread to bash America. I highly doubt if I made a thread about the French being used like a floor mop in just about every war since Napoleon people would take kind to it. If I've offended anyone, I apologize.

[HighDemonslayer]

A few days, I was going to write that the U.N. is incapable of QUICKLY dealing with a disaster of this size anyone on Earth, as their Asian-Tsunami response demonstrated.


Today, I think that they stayed away because they would be shot in the back on the streets of NO. Fear can neutralize the U.N.


-n