First let me say - NO TROLLS in this topic - please comment on the topic and discuss it - all short responces that do not include opinions or responces that are off topic and especially pushing some kind of other agenda will be deleted - this message is especially for Dan Feary and Nathan Oates. You have no obligation to post in this topic. It sucks that I have to post a warning but it also sucks when interesting topics get ruined.
Anyway I saw a very interesting documentary about the banning of religious symbols in French schools. In particular the Hajib - the Muslim head dress that many Muslim women wear. I wasn't really sure if the docementary was biased and pushing a particular view or not - I mean it was presented in a very unbiased manner, giving equal time to both sides to express their views etc. But those speaking for the ban all actually made racist comments or infered racist comments. I am sure in a country like France there are people who are not racist who still support this ban and I think maybe the people were misrepresented to sound racist. I don't know. Anyway it was still intriguing. It was mainly the story of a small group of girls at a particular school trying to get through the new law. There was an amazingly inspiring teacher who was one of the few people to support the girls - this guy was a philosphy teacher, had no connection with Islam and was an athiest. He came across as very wise and somebody who had given the issue a great deal of thought. Anyway I'm interested to know what other people - especially French people think of the laws generally. There has been some talk of introducing the same laws into Australia although at this stage there is basically no support for such laws and in Australian culture I think most of us find it almost impossible to imagine such laws coming into effect.
Personally, even though I am athiest, I think people should definitely be able to wear religious symbols in public places - such as public schools. I find it horrible to see that young Muslim girls are being forced to leave school because of the strength of their religious convictions - being denied their right to education because of their religion. I don't really comprehend why wearing the Hajib is so important to them - but I can understand that it is so important to them. It also seems like the laws are directly targeting Muslims - from what the documentary said, although all religious symbols are banned - it's only if they are significantly noticable, skull caps, crosses on chains etc. are all considered "discreet" enough to still be worn. Even Sheik head dresses are still allowed to be worn. I really don't know what else is banned apart from the Hajib.
I'm also curious as to what the effect will be. The aim seemed to be to break down barriers between different social groups, however the feel I got is that the Islamic girls felt alienated and less social. They were also had a much stronger desire to wear their hajib before and after school and if anything, I would say it strengthened their Islamic beliefs and built more barriers between different social groups.
Anyway I don't know a great deal about the situation - I've seen one documentary and read the odd article in the newspaper so my opinions may be likely to change as I get more information.
French banning of religous symbols at school
Hm...I didn't know how religion and school is being brought up like this in other countries than the US. I quite frankly am tired of the bitching that some people make about the separation of church and state here - it sounds like a lot of the same for there. In my opinion, you should be allowed to wear something such as the Hajib if it is something that you've been raised to wear. It's like taking a wild horse out of its habitat and trying to force it to be on the equestrian team - it just doesn't make much sense. This is one of those situations where you get the people that won't/don't tolerate it who push and abuse the rights and feelings of those being attacked; it's sickening. It reminds me a lot of the use of "under God" in the Pledge. It's all a bunch of bunkum.
Sam Mayer
"Son, a woman is like a beer. They smell good, they look good, you'd step over your own mother just to get one!" - Homer Simpson
"Son, a woman is like a beer. They smell good, they look good, you'd step over your own mother just to get one!" - Homer Simpson
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HighDemonslayer
- Egyptian Footgod
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: 17 Jun 2003 19:34
- Location: Arizona
I remember when they first contemplating the headscarf ban months ago. Here's a few targeted opinions, for and against:
1. Some headresses may obscure a child face and eyes. My teachers in school didn't let us wear things that we could use to hide our faces.
2. Headscarves can conceal your identity somewhat. Teachers need to be able to distinguish students apart.
3. Are students being attacked on the basis of their religous garb? Do the Christians attack the Muslims?, Muslims the Jews?, etc... etc... Can schools contain the violence?
Is it that bad that they need the ban? (if the violence exists)
4. Do the girls fear for their safety if they don't wear the scarves? Do they face riducule or beatings for exposing to much ?
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In America, they would have to ban all religions in school. They can't just ban some.
-n
1. Some headresses may obscure a child face and eyes. My teachers in school didn't let us wear things that we could use to hide our faces.
2. Headscarves can conceal your identity somewhat. Teachers need to be able to distinguish students apart.
3. Are students being attacked on the basis of their religous garb? Do the Christians attack the Muslims?, Muslims the Jews?, etc... etc... Can schools contain the violence?
Is it that bad that they need the ban? (if the violence exists)
4. Do the girls fear for their safety if they don't wear the scarves? Do they face riducule or beatings for exposing to much ?
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In America, they would have to ban all religions in school. They can't just ban some.
-n
Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?
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-nathan
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-nathan
I don't think any of Nathen's points were issues that got brought up by either side of the debate.
There are two main issues that were raised. Firstly by physically presenting their religion, the Muslim girls are creating barriers between themselves and non Muslims - rather than "intergrating" with different cultures they are remaining seperate.
The other issue is that France is a very secular nation - much more so than nations such as the US or Australia and has been like that for hundreds of years - which for me is incredible since Australia was only invaded by white people just over 220 years ago. It's all very well for Sam to say that the seculism sucks but it's a very strong and engrained part of French culture - much like there are many aspects of US culture that seem ridiculous to outsiders but are defended vigorously by Americans.
Personally I would say that secularism should mean that schools don't discrimate based on religion - by that I mean to the extent that they don't make laws that effect all religious people but not athiests - Governments shouldn't have a right to interfer with somebodies religion. However I can equally understand how it could be deemed inappropriate to express your religion in a secular school. There is the idea of freedom of religion but also the idea not to have other people's religions pushed on you. Sometimes I feel the same way about preaching christians - especially at my high school where we actually had the occasional "religious education" lesson even though it was a government (public) school. But I used to have a lot of fun debating with the people taking the classes and getting them to say fucked up things (like that Hitler was a good thing for the world - long story).
There are two main issues that were raised. Firstly by physically presenting their religion, the Muslim girls are creating barriers between themselves and non Muslims - rather than "intergrating" with different cultures they are remaining seperate.
The other issue is that France is a very secular nation - much more so than nations such as the US or Australia and has been like that for hundreds of years - which for me is incredible since Australia was only invaded by white people just over 220 years ago. It's all very well for Sam to say that the seculism sucks but it's a very strong and engrained part of French culture - much like there are many aspects of US culture that seem ridiculous to outsiders but are defended vigorously by Americans.
Personally I would say that secularism should mean that schools don't discrimate based on religion - by that I mean to the extent that they don't make laws that effect all religious people but not athiests - Governments shouldn't have a right to interfer with somebodies religion. However I can equally understand how it could be deemed inappropriate to express your religion in a secular school. There is the idea of freedom of religion but also the idea not to have other people's religions pushed on you. Sometimes I feel the same way about preaching christians - especially at my high school where we actually had the occasional "religious education" lesson even though it was a government (public) school. But I used to have a lot of fun debating with the people taking the classes and getting them to say fucked up things (like that Hitler was a good thing for the world - long story).
And to stay on topic 
The freedom of these girls is obviously being marginalized. Unless it is infringing on the freedoms of other students there should be no problem with muslim girls wearing a head dress. That is the basis of non-discrimination in most liberal nations code of rights. (Well at least in Canada.)
The freedom of these girls is obviously being marginalized. Unless it is infringing on the freedoms of other students there should be no problem with muslim girls wearing a head dress. That is the basis of non-discrimination in most liberal nations code of rights. (Well at least in Canada.)
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max
- Australofrenchbrityorkus
- Posts: 3751
- Joined: 24 Apr 2002 00:12
- Location: Bondi Beach, Australia
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School and Church have been seperated in France since the laicization laws of 1882-1886. Church ans State were seperated in 1905 (centenerary was celebreated yesterday btw). So legally speaking, they can't infring on the religious beliefs of students as you say, yet they can say that all signs of religion are to be kept OUT of school.It is completely innapropriate, a government run or non-denomonational school has no right to infringe upon the religous beliefs of an individual
And that's what the head scarf law said. To be more precise, the law does not concern only head scarfs, but all "ostentious signs of religion" such as kippas, big crosses, big Fatma's hands and head scarfs. The meaning of "ostentatious" is left to the school director's discretion.
Now this law is pretty old news. They was quite the debate when it was voted in, and in particular these two girls who refused to not wear head scarfs. Basicly everyone went with this new law and everything quieted down. I think there was a total of 30 cases were this law was not being followed (including the two girls). Now about these two sisters, they then became home schooled, and got their end-of-school diploma (baccalaureat in France). You might think that they come from super religous families... they don't. Their mother while being muslim is a moderated one and doesn't wear a head scarf, and was against them wearing a head scarf in school or out. Their father is an atheist born jewish and wasn't very pleased with his girls' decision either. Because this is the thing: when the debates started about the head scarfs, the two grils weren't wearing one at the time! So no one quite understood what was going on then, but this story certainly fuelled a lot of debates about radical muslims "enrolling" young adults like the two girls and converting them to a more radical aspect of religion.
gotta run, am at work.
My view on this is that religion has no place whatsoever in a school, and should be taught by the parents.
Maxime Boucoiran
French ConneXion
BFC
French ConneXion
BFC
Thanks for the reply Max - good to hear a French perspective.
Regarding your last comment - I agree mainly with this sentiment but I'd argue that the Hajib is not so much of a religous item as a cultural item. As I understand it - there is no mention of it in any Islamic texts (ie. the Koran) and there is no religious obligations on any Muslim to wear it - it is worn for cultural reasons - rather than religious reasons. It's also not trying to convert anybody to the religion - so I think it's fine to express your religion in such circumstances. - i think it's wrong to try and preach or convert people to a particular religion in school - especially if it's supported by the teachers (ie. my school) but wearing religious symbols is different. What about t-shirts and stuff that may have crosses or pentagrams on them? Are they banned too? Wearing a shirt with a pentagram doesn't neccessarily mean that you're wearing it because you have a particular religion but it's much more of a cultural item (it probably means you listen to heavy metal or something like that
).
Note I deleted a few posts from this topic - as I said at the start of this topic:
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First let me say - NO TROLLS in this topic - please comment on the topic and discuss it - all short responces that do not include opinions or responces that are off topic and especially pushing some kind of other agenda will be deleted - this message is especially for Dan Feary and Nathan Oates. You have no obligation to post in this topic. It sucks that I have to post a warning but it also sucks when interesting topics get ruined.
Regarding your last comment - I agree mainly with this sentiment but I'd argue that the Hajib is not so much of a religous item as a cultural item. As I understand it - there is no mention of it in any Islamic texts (ie. the Koran) and there is no religious obligations on any Muslim to wear it - it is worn for cultural reasons - rather than religious reasons. It's also not trying to convert anybody to the religion - so I think it's fine to express your religion in such circumstances. - i think it's wrong to try and preach or convert people to a particular religion in school - especially if it's supported by the teachers (ie. my school) but wearing religious symbols is different. What about t-shirts and stuff that may have crosses or pentagrams on them? Are they banned too? Wearing a shirt with a pentagram doesn't neccessarily mean that you're wearing it because you have a particular religion but it's much more of a cultural item (it probably means you listen to heavy metal or something like that
).Note I deleted a few posts from this topic - as I said at the start of this topic:
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First let me say - NO TROLLS in this topic - please comment on the topic and discuss it - all short responces that do not include opinions or responces that are off topic and especially pushing some kind of other agenda will be deleted - this message is especially for Dan Feary and Nathan Oates. You have no obligation to post in this topic. It sucks that I have to post a warning but it also sucks when interesting topics get ruined.