Defining Suicide

[Splint]

My hijacking of the Meaning of Life thread prompted me to make this one about defining suicide. Listed below is what transpired in the discussion so far and it has been removed from the other thread to allow the Meaning of Life discussion to go on as normal.

Jesus, the one and only Son of God, came to earth and lived a perfect sinless life. He was crucified even though He was completely innocent. He received the punishment that we deserved. He was the perfect sacrifice, He was put into our place and took on Himself the sentence of death that should have been ours. (Romans 5:8)

Jesus did not, however, remain dead. After three days, He rose from the grave and later ascended into heaven. He will return for all those who are trusting in Him as their Savior.

Jesus died for you. You can be saved by asking Him for forgiveness from your sins (John 10:10). If you are willing to repent of your sin, He is waiting to forgive you.

Jesus committed suicide. He had full ability to escape his death, but instead chose to allow himself to be taken and nailed to a cross until death, believing the Lord had forsaken him. Liken it if you will to those who feel that life is pointless and rob a bank so that the police will shoot them so that they don't have to do it themselves.
As a suicide, Jesus' soul now burns eternally in hell. As such if you accept him into your heart you accept Satan. Don't believe me? World history will show just how many more people have been murdered over Christianity than any other single influence. That's devilish if you ask me.

Hahahahaha wow. So breaking the law=suicide??

Hahahahaha wow. So breaking the law=suicide??

Hahaha indeed. I understood what hes talking about.....obviously you do not. What you are laughing at is the example, not the point.

The point is, that's bull. Allowing someone to take your life does not = suicide. Period. UGH. USE THE DICTIONARY PEOPLE!!!!!

Well, unfortunately, we as humans need language to define the perameters around which we exist. The meaning of a word constitutes the definitive understanding of a concept. If you remove that definition, then you lose the ability to convey meaning.

Well, unfortunately, we as humans need language to define the perameters around which we exist. The meaning of a word constitutes the definitive understanding of a concept. If you remove that definition, then you lose the ability to convey meaning.

And if you don't allow room for definitions and concepts to change over time, you get a dead language. I give you Sanskrit and Latin.
Use the dictionary as much as you like, but if you go back 20 years you'll find a whole bunch of definitions have changed as the language has changed.

That's fine, but I'm sory to say you're not the one who all of a sudden gets to re-define suicide my friend. It's pretty black and white at this point.

Suicide means to kill oneself. It does not mean to allow someone to kill you. Terms may change over time, but not during the course of one thread. And not without the vast majority of language speakers agreeing to that change.

For you to take that person's religion and mock it that way, using a completely FALSE methodology was very rude and tasteless in my opinion. If that person wants to believe in certain things she has the right to. You have the right to disagree. But mocking someone's religion or beliefs that way is EXTREMELY rude.

You were'nt even making a point about the topic of this thread. You just wanted to maliciously attack her for having her beliefs. Instead of attacking her, why don't you come up with your own theory on 'The meaning of Life'. Contribute in a positive way.

That's fine, but I'm sorry to say you're not the one who all of a sudden gets to re-define suicide my friend. It's pretty black and white at this point.

Are you joking!

Is it not suicide to step infront of a bus.....even though "the bus" killed you? If someone with a gun wants to kill you and you let them do it, when you could have escaped....thats suicide to!!!!!

In fact suicide is at a cross road in history. There is a huge debate about doctor assisted suicide going on in most of the developed world. Don't simplify!!!
http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/canlaw.html#SEC1F

Read about Sue Rodriguez......

This also supports my point about the meaning of life. Live it for the experience, without experience (the situation someone with a debilitating disease finds themself in) there is no point to life.

You cannot 'interpret' a diffinitive word. It's defined as 'killing oneself'. If someone kills you, then you yourself are not committing the act. Art is left up to interpretation. Language is not. I'm sorry you all have such a hard time grasping this.

Just because people want to have their own viewpoints on something, doesn't all of a sudden change what that thing is. Perhaps you could go as far as say that if you 'TELL' someone to kill you, then you are using your mind and mouth as the tool to interface with another tool, the person killing you, in order to kill you. By that far stretch of an example you could argue that that is indeed an act of killing yourself. I still wouldn't accept it myself, but one could make their arguement more plausible.

However, the entire message behind Christ's passive nature when they were killing him went along with the doctrine of 'turning the other cheek'. He did not tell someone to kill him, nor did he try to kill himself. By no stretch of the imagination did he commit suicide.

I mean, by that logic I could just interpret anything to mean what I want it to. A rabbit is really just a cat with floppy ears.

You cannot 'interpret' a diffinitive word. It's defined as 'killing oneself'. If someone kills you, then you yourself are not committing the act. Art is left up to interpretation. Language is not. I'm sorry you all have such a hard time grasping this.

You are so completely wrong I have to conclude that you don't actually know what you are talking about and you are just speaking from total opinion. On the suicide issue, it is simply your belief that suicide is a definitive word while the world around you is actively changing it's definition.
Language is absolutely open to interpretation. As a matter of fact that's pretty much all we do every day when it comes to language. Why do you think there are so many "misunderstandings". You say one thing and your girlfriend, brother, or boss acts on it as though you said another thing because their interpretation of what you said is not what you actually meant. Likewise on the internet (e-mail, chatboards, forums etc.) we communicate everyday in ways that require us to interpret eachother's writing in a different way than we would if we were actually standing face to face.

Just because people want to have their own viewpoints on something, doesn't all of a sudden change what that thing is. Perhaps you could go as far as say that if you 'TELL' someone to kill you, then you are using your mind and mouth as the tool to interface with another tool, the person killing you, in order to kill you. By that far stretch of an example you could argue that that is indeed an act of killing yourself. I still wouldn't accept it myself, but one could make their arguement more plausible.

However, the entire message behind Christ's passive nature when they were killing him went along with the doctrine of 'turning the other cheek'. He did not tell someone to kill him, nor did he try to kill himself. By no stretch of the imagination did he commit suicide.

I mean, by that logic I could just interpret anything to mean what I want it to. A rabbit is really just a cat with floppy ears.

Here's an example for you. Five soldiers are pinned down by enemy fire. One decides that he will break off in a different direction to draw enemy fire so that his friends can get away. His choice is certain death and his friends know it. They turn to him and say, "That's suicide!" This situation and those words have been used in countless war films and in real life. While it is also considered a sacrifice of oneself, it also defines suicide as intentionally putting oneself in a position where death is iminent.


OH and the meaning of life is argumentative discourse.

[shredzilla]

suicide- to kill oneself.

feminism- a movement brought about by men, women, and politicians used to advance the political, social, and civil rights of the female gender

This situation and those words have been used in countless war films and in real life.

Hahahhaha. OH man. You're hilarious. So the guy running out into the field and his buddy says "That's suicide!" is your arguement? "It's been used in countless warfilms.....AND real life!!" Haha well, countless war films can't be wrong, can they.

The reason there are so many misunderstandings is because guys like you come up with their own definitions for words. Unfortunately there's lots of people like you that just attach their own meaning to words, making it very difficult to communicate. The entire WORLD doesn't disagree with me. You do. You are now backed by the entire WORLD for your arguement? AND you have the ability to change the english language at will. Impressive. Maybe we should join forces and take over the world! We'll confuse them by changing their languages so much that it will alter their religion! Forget what they're religion says, they'll go to whatever afterlife WE choose!!!

As a suicide, Jesus' soul now burns eternally in hell. As such if you accept him into your heart you accept Satan.

Wow, I gotta be honest with you Splint. That's one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard.

[Splint]

suicide- to kill oneself.

feminism- a movement brought about by men, women, and politicians used to advance the political, social, and civil rights of the female gender

This situation and those words have been used in countless war films and in real life.

Hahahhaha. OH man. You're hilarious. So the guy running out into the field and his buddy says "That's suicide!" is your arguement? "It's been used in countless warfilms.....AND real life!!" Haha well, countless war films can't be wrong, can they.

As a suicide, Jesus' soul now burns eternally in hell. As such if you accept him into your heart you accept Satan.

Wow, I gotta be honest with you Splint. That's one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard.

I've been avoiding going here for a while now, but Chris you are a edited for personal inflammatory remark.
You depend solely on Oxford, Webster, and Dictionary.com for all of your information. So let me give you an example of how culture creates and changes words and definitions. "Google" is a proper noun for the search engine "Google". Because Google has become so commonly used the word has developed into a verb as well; google. Type that into Dictionary.com. "Bling-bling" used to mean absolutely nothing. However, common slang usage has developed it into a dictionary definable word.

As a suicide, Jesus' soul now burns eternally in hell. As such if you accept him into your heart you accept Satan.

Wow, I gotta be honest with you Splint. That's one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard.

Thankyou SO much for proving my point about the interpretation of language. I was really hoping you'd bring this one up. Obviously sarcasm is totally lost on you. You interpreted my statement as something serious when in fact it was anything, but serious. Do I think that Jesus in fact committed suicide by his actions...maybe...it's certainly open to debate. Do I think his soul burns in eternal hell?...well shit, I'd have to believe in hell now wouldn't I. The point is that language is used in infinite ways to describe different circumstances.

If you really want ignorant statements then you should read this one:

Art is left up to interpretation. Language is not.

By the way, I am not seeking to singlehandedly change definitions of words. Pretty much, not a single thing I've said is original. It is stuff that has been hashed over by different communities of people for years. Especially the feminism topic. You're the edited for personal inflammartory remark who sticks to the book unless a law is officially passed to change the way you think.

[Tsiangkun]

Suicide = The successful execution of actions that fulfill one's desire to end their own life.

[Tsiangkun]

Y'all can keep coming up with contrived examples of how someone could choose actions that could get them killed, but it's not a suicide.

Suicide involves the desire to have one's life ended, and these weak ass examples don't have that element.

[shredzilla]

Gee Splint, if you were being sarcastic that whole time, couldn't you have said that before the flame war?

I will not dignify the remainder of your last post with a response, because you've now resorted to name-calling. However, even if you were joking about this:

As a suicide, Jesus' soul now burns eternally in hell. As such if you accept him into your heart you accept Satan.

It was in VERY poor taste. Please have respect for people on the forum and their beliefs.

[mc]

Chris, you should buy a full suit...



big bad bradmin breathes fire watch your eyebrows.

YOU"RE ALL FUCKING IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!1111oneoneone

[Jeremy]

I guess in my opinion the word suicide can be used both to refer to directly killing yourself or taking actions for the cause of killing yourself. (ie. if you ask somebody else to kill you then that's still suicide). I think the word can also definitely be used to refer willingly taking actions that lead to certain death. For example if Jesus knew that he was going to die and he still decided to go ahead with his actions then that could definitely be called "suicide".

English is definitely a changing langauge - I'm surprised people can debate that fact at all. Look at footbag - originally "dimwalk" meant quantum butterfly. That also became known (or was also known) as toe ripwalk which got confused and now it's completely acceptable to call pixie butterfly "dimwalk".

[shredzilla]

Man, just when I thought I was done with this ridiculous topic...

Well, we'd have to take a poll of every single english speaker on earth to know for sure. Language is used to convey a concept or idea, implying that BOTH the person communicating and the one conveying the point speak the same LANGUAGE. That's why computer language is so exact. Because machines can not speak to one another without using proper language/protocol.

Evolution of language is definitely apparent all througout history, however interpretation cannot override denotation, unless the connotation is more widely used. Just because you think that someone's actions are suicide, doesn't mean that your belief overrides the denotation of that term. Jeremy, Splint, whoever's belief does not override fact. UNLESS you take a poll and Jeremy and Splint are part of the majority of people who believe that in regards to every single english scholar and fluent speaker in the world. IN WHICH CASE the dictionary term would have probably changed by now to match their belief.

[Tsiangkun]

Blah Blah Blah, just another off topic post to follow that last one.

[Bander87]

I came up with a quote a while back "Sacrifice without cause is suicide".

I think suicide is killing yourself only because you don't want to live anymore, nothing more than that. If you dive on a gernade, you are considered a person who commited a heroic deed, not one who commited suicide. Also, dieing for a cause is being a marder or whatever, not suicide. Killing your self because you simply don't want to live anymore is suicide.

It all depends what you are dieing for IMO.

[wolfpac444]

Evolution of language is definitely apparent all througout history, however interpretation cannot override denotation, unless the connotation is more widely used. Just because you think that someone's actions are suicide, doesn't mean that your belief overrides the denotation of that term. Jeremy, Splint, whoever's belief does not override fact. UNLESS you take a poll and Jeremy and Splint are part of the majority of people who believe that in regards to every single english scholar and fluent speaker in the world. IN WHICH CASE the dictionary term would have probably changed by now to match their belief.

How do you think the denotation of a word comes about? http://www.oed.com/about/writing/ might be enlightening. The purpose of a dictionary is not to generate new language, but to simply document how words have been commonly used by people. People who speak the language define the meanings of words in their usage of them -- dictionaries simply try to document this.

In any case, this whole denotation is simply an irrelevant to the heart of the discussion. Certain ideas are being discussed, and those exist independently of the name you choose to give them.

What should be thought about are things of the following nature... If a person purposefully throws themselves in front of a bus, what is the Christian reaction to that? What if a person saw a grand piano falling from the sky directly above them and chose not to move -- what would the Christian reaction to that be? I don't believe these perspectives are dependant on the name one chooses to group these actions under.

[Slowsis]

Suicide = The successful execution of actions that fulfill one's desire to end their own life.

100% agree with this one!

[pips]

I came up with a quote a while back "Sacrifice without cause is suicide".

I think suicide is killing yourself only because you don't want to live anymore, nothing more than that. If you dive on a gernade, you are considered a person who commited a heroic deed, not one who commited suicide. Also, dieing for a cause is being a marder or whatever, not suicide. Killing your self because you simply don't want to live anymore is suicide.

It all depends what you are dieing for IMO.

I gotta agree with this one the most. I wanted to post on here earlier but couldn't come up with anything decent or organized to say.

About the religious stuff...In a way, I was agreeing that Jesus did commit suicide but not really. This explains how Jesus did not commit suicide, and I just could not explain that without the help of Bander's quote.

[shredzilla]

In any case, this whole denotation is simply an irrelevant to the heart of the discussion. Certain ideas are being discussed, and those exist independently of the name you choose to give them.

What should be thought about are things of the following nature... If a person purposefully throws themselves in front of a bus, what is the Christian reaction to that? What if a person saw a grand piano falling from the sky directly above them and chose not to move -- what would the Christian reaction to that be? I don't believe these perspectives are dependant on the name one chooses to group these actions under.

You're absolutely right. My main point to Splint regarding that was that Jesus did not violate his Father in allowing himself to be killed. Because Splint was using the word 'suicide' to describe Jesus' actions, I felt it was necessary to define what Jesus did, compared to what the word actually means. Perhaps trying to define those two ideas as merely ideas, would have gotten through to Splint more easily.

I also find that people more and more are tending to discard meaning completely, and leave every part of communication up to interpretation. I've always found this very frustrating. It'd be like saying "Hey Splint you're stupid!!!" What I really meant by stupid was that he was cool, as in "Yo that add 6 is stupid!" or stoopid, or whatever. The point is, one needs to convey ideas correctly using correct terminology.

Splint was trying to say that because Jesus allowed himself to be killed, he violated a sacred rule in the Christian bible, forcing himself to go to hell. Hmm...if Jesus himself IS the Lord in a different incarnation according to the Christian bible, why would he purposefully do that? So Splint's interpretation of Jesus' actions led him to purposefully offend someone regarding their religion. Then he said he was just joking.

That's the point guys. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Why leave it up to interpretation. I'm a firm believer in good communication. If this is just some BS forum, and no one on here takes anything seriously anyway, so be it. But I was under the impression that these conversations were poignant and valid.

*Man I really gotta use that dang preview button. Especially since I can't edit my posts.

[Jeremy]

Brad's comment about Jesus was clearly not serious and taking not serious posts seriously is a silly waste of time.

[dyalander]

the suicide= spiritual transgression thing applies to man - sure according to the Bible Jesus took the form of man but he doesnt submit himself to our spiritual laws only our physical real world laws, these aren't the same things. As part of "The Trinity" he transcends our spiritual laws.
Also his death can't be taken out of context - he died only to be physically born again surely thats diffirent from suicide, perhaps its somewhere between "suicide" and "attempted suicide".

[shredzilla]

Brad's comment about Jesus was clearly not serious and taking not serious posts seriously is a silly waste of time.

So you think it's okay to completely mock someone's religion? I'm sorry, but I find that incredibly rude and disrespectful. It wasn't directed at me, but I felt that it was done in very poor taste and needed to be discussed at the very least. I've honestly tried to stop posting about this, but somehow the point just hasn't hit home.

[Guest_2]

Don't you feel bad for people who fail attempting suicide? They wouldn't even succeed at not living

Wouldn't cancer from cigarettes be considered suicide? It's a behavior that will eventually end one's life...

IMHO, Suicide=One causing oneself to die prematurely from unnatural causes

[BainbridgeShred]

Jesus committed suicide. He had full ability to escape his death, but instead chose to allow himself to be taken and nailed to a cross until death, believing the Lord had forsaken him. Liken it if you will to those who feel that life is pointless and rob a bank so that the police will shoot them so that they don't have to do it themselves.
As a suicide, Jesus' soul now burns eternally in hell. As such if you accept him into your heart you accept Satan. Don't believe me? World history will show just how many more people have been murdered over Christianity than any other single influence. That's devilish if you ask me.

So all of that was just sarcasm? Seems more like you were making fun of Linksy's beliefs in a way that you could easily come up with an excuse for. If it was all sarcasm, what was the intellectual point of posting it in the context it was posted in? You must've known that it would only lead to one of these time of mindless threads where you actually resort to calling some "a fucking idiot". If I did that I'd probably be banned, but Jeremy doesn't even call you on it. What Mod's this forum has.