Don't you just hate when....

[slapdash21]

Yeah I would say that it's virtually impossible for a human to actually make random decisions regarding rock paper scissors. For example if you played 243 times and were legitimately random you'd expect there to be at one time where the player played the same thing 5 times in a row. Would a random player actually do that? Would they over do it? Of course the other is statistically unlikely things are likely to happen in a game (because there is a lot of different statistically unlikely things that could happen - so it's unlikely to predict a particular unlikely event but likely that any of the number of events could occur) so I think it would be very hard to actually play randomly.

i think he wrote R, P, S, each on one side of a pencil (the hexagonal type), and rolled it onto the desk and wrote down the next 5 results and used those.

[shredzilla]

Is BREATHING a sport? I mean, if we did it competitively and saw who could get their heart rate up to a certain BPM, and then lower it, only by controlling their breathing. Whoever could do that in the least ammount of time would win!

Screw the PBA(Professional Bowling Association). The Professional Breathing Association is teh new, cool!

[junkyardjew]

Well, in terms of completely random RPS, the way to verify it would be to use a computer algorithm... and of course, its already been done. I'm too lazy to search for a link to it, but there's actually a computerized RPS tournament. I'm pretty sure that each computer plays a thousand games against each other in, like, twenty seconds, and the one that wins most often moves on to the next round.

Now, there were tons of super impressive algorithms used, algorithms that predicted what algorithm the other computer was using and compensated, etc. So one guy entered a computer that played totally random throws. It actually did pretty well, but it definitely didn't win. "breaking even" doesn't tend to be good enough. I'm sure there's a strategy to use against a statistically random oponent, if you're playing over a thousand rounds. I'll try and find the article I read at some point and post it, cause it was pretty interesting.

[busted]

I guess this is conversation has completely gotten off the topic of the original post, but I like it.

Here's a MATLAB routine I wrote that can kick people's butts at ROCK/PAPER/SCISSOR. It's based on what Jeremy said, which is that truely random behavior is quite difficult for humans.
-David

Code: Select all

function [score1,score2,cube] = rockpaper(M)
% 
% function [score1,score2,cube] = rockpaper(M)
%
% M is the order, valid choices are M=1..5
%
% score1 = computer's score
% score2 = your score
% cube   = unnormalized counts from the past game rounds
%
%

plays = ['R' 'P' 'S'];

if (M==1)
  cube = ones(3,1);
elseif (M==2)
  cube = ones(3,3);
elseif (M==3)
  cube = ones(3,3,3);
elseif (M==4)
  cube = ones(3,3,3,3);
elseif (M==5)
  cube = ones(3,3,3,3,3);
end

inside  = 1;
mm = ones(M,1);
myplay = 1;
yourplay = 1;

score1 = 0;
score2 = 0;

while (inside>0)
  clf
  axis([0 1 0 1])
  axis('off')
  t=0:0.5:1.0;
  plot(t,0.8*ones(1,length(t)));
  hold on
  plot(t,0*ones(1,length(t)),'k');
  plot(t,ones(1,length(t)),'k');
  plot(0*ones(1,length(t)),t,'k');
  plot(ones(1,length(t)),t,'k');
  text(0.2,0.3,'Use Left-Middle-Right Mouse Buttons');
  text(0.2,0.9,'Rock-Paper-Scissors (Click Here to Quit)');
  strang = sprintf('Last Play: Me=%s You=%s',plays(myplay),plays(yourplay));
  text(0.2,0.7,strang);
  strang = sprintf('Computer Wins %d, Your Wins %d\n',score1,score2);
  text(0.2,0.1,strang);
  axis([0 1 0 1])
  axis('off')
  myplay = 1;

  switch M
      case {1}
          condprobs = cube(:);      
      case {2}
          condprobs = cube(mm(2), :)
      case {3}
          condprobs = cube(mm(2), mm(3), :);      
      case {4}
          condprobs = cube(mm(2), mm(3), mm(4), :);      
      case {5}
          condprobs = cube(mm(2), mm(3), mm(4), mm(5), :);      
  end
  i = find(condprobs == max(condprobs));
  yourpredictedplay = i(1);
  
  switch yourpredictedplay
      case {1}      % I guess you'll pick rock. 
          myplay = 2;   % So I pick paper.
      case {2}      % I guess you'll pick paper.
          myplay = 3;   % So I pick scissors.
      case {3}      % I guess you'll pick scissors.
          myplay = 1;   % So I definitely pick the rock.
      otherwise
          error('Bad prediction.')
  end
  
  strang = sprintf('Click Here to Play, My Guess is %s', plays(myplay));
  text(0.2,0.5,strang);
  [x,y,click] = ginput(1);
  mm = [mm(2:M); click(1)];
  yourplay = click(1);

  switch M
      case {1}
          cube(mm(1)) = cube(mm(1))+1;
      case {2}
          cube(mm(1),mm(2)) = cube(mm(1),mm(2))+1;
      case {3}
          cube(mm(1),mm(2),mm(3)) = cube(mm(1),mm(2),mm(3))+1;
      case {4}
          cube(mm(1),mm(2),mm(3),mm(4)) = cube(mm(1),mm(2),mm(3),mm(4))+1;
      case {5}
          cube(mm(1),mm(2),mm(3),mm(4),mm(5)) = cube(mm(1),mm(2),mm(3),mm(4),mm(5))+1;
  end

  
  if (yourplay==myplay)
     score1=score1;
  elseif ((myplay==1) & (yourplay==2))
     score2=score2+1;
  elseif ((myplay==2) & (yourplay==3))
     score2=score2+1;
  elseif ((myplay==3) & (yourplay==1))
     score2=score2+1;
  elseif ((myplay==2) & (yourplay==1))
     score1=score1+1;
  elseif ((myplay==3) & (yourplay==2))
     score1=score1+1;
  elseif ((myplay==1) & (yourplay==3))
     score1=score1+1;
  end
  
  if (y>0.8)
     inside = -1;
  end
end

[Bander87]

http://www.worldrps.com

If you look through it, you will realize that there is much more than just RPS.

[busted]

That site is LAUGHOUTLOUD funny! I love the beer in the hand of the one guy, and the nerd for the referree!

My favorite is:

25. When in a RPS match against a perceived psychic what is the best strategy to adhere to.
Submitted by Stanley Key

This is rarely encountered, but should you find yourself in this situation, we would recommend that you practice your throws while thinking of the name of another throw. Instead of thinking of it by its rightful name think of it by the throw that beats it. Therefore, throw scissors- think rock, throw rock - think paper, etc. This results in the psychic "hearing" your intention to play a certain throw, they will react and throw the throw that beats it, all the while you are actually throwing the throw that beats your opponent's. Practice it enough and it will become second nature.

One caveat, this effect may become permanent and affect your playing style professionally.

[Switch Kicker]

hmmm, Fred, I think you may have missed the point of Modified. You see, modified is a "Discussion Forum". It's where people carry out these things we call "discusions". That is where people attempt to convince each other of the veracity of their various statements by well thought out arguments, or by referencing examples pertinent to the point being made.

I don't care if you agree with me or not about golf, racing and baseball, because I'm not changing my opinion.

That, my friend, consitutes what is known in the business as a "statement". I'm grateful to you for starting this interesting discussion, but please don't attempt to shut it down. If your mind can't be changed, then nobody cares what you think.

Why do computer bring out the need in people to either look up, or try their hardest to remember complicated words that they THINK no one else knows? Some people actually don't know what it means and have to look it up, that if they even care about whatever it is you said.

Now, back to what you said. This is, I don't, know, I guess a defensive thing I do... See, when someone points me out specifically, and start's "talking to me" while "trying to be polite" but actually being an asshole, you konw, trying to irretate me, I get, defensive. I try not to point people out and attack them, I really do, I usually don't. And I hate being pointed out, and attacked, such as what you just did to me.

Also, the immediat assumption of me being an idiot, or completely being ignorant to the point of a specific topic. Yea, a "polite asshole" as like to call them.

And then talking to me as though I were child... Dude, I may be wrong about some things I say, but seriously, grow, the fuck up kid. Honestly, I dont know at my age (17) who would act as immature as you.

The statment I made, was meant for people to stop singling me out and telling me that I am wrong through THEIR statments, rather than simply their opinions.

Plain and simple, your pointless comment, was well, pointless, and unneccesary, thanks for proving to me, and the kid that seems to be reading my post sitting next to me... (Heh, he just smiled and looked back at his computer.) that you are a completely immature idiot. Damn, I really fucking hate the internet... Hide behind the mic...I hate that.

[Blackend]

Just remember when playing RPS to whip out Chuck Norris.

[james_dean]

You still think you can put forward a very strong viewpoint, and expect no one to discuss it? People making arguments about how you are wrong, IS stating their opinion. Their opinion is the opposite of yours, and they are stating WHY that is their opinion. It is NOT a personal attack and it is CERTAINLY not 'his bad', he did absolutely nothing wrong. YOU jumped on HIS ass, not the other way around.

OK. You think Golf, Baseball and Racing, aren't sports. Even though they are considered by practically everyone (and I'm not just talking about modified here) to be sports, and they fit both the cultural and the literal definition of a sport.

You are obviously wrong. Get over it. It happens. You can't have a discussion, when you are not prepared to change your mind.

p.s. The irony of you getting defensive about him talking to you like a kid, and then calling him a kid in the same sentence, was just gold.

p.p.s. The last paragraph with the reference to the kid reading your post... was also gold

p.p.s. This is NOT 'hide behind the mic' I would gladly say this to your face... I highly doubt you would 'get violent' and if you DID it would be a massive sign of immaturity. I wouldn't be surprised if you were the worst offender of 'hiding behind the mic'. You are always spouting off about how you're going to kick such and suches arse, rather convenient that you don't have the opportunity, hmm?


On-topic:

I'm impressed! There is actual strategy in RPS... cool. I agree that it's really hard for humans to act randomly... whenever I try, I am painfully aware that it isn't working ^^

I once played a game of RPS with a big group of people and if you won a game you got to sit out... the loser was the one left standing... I can't believe I didn't win a single game in the whole thing

[RawSko]

I've been keeping up with this thread for a while now, and I love it... I've been trying to get an Account on modified FOREVER and it never worked, until now!! I'm SO happy

hmmm, Fred, I think you may have missed the point of Modified. You see, modified is a "Discussion Forum". It's where people carry out these things we call "discusions". That is where people attempt to convince each other of the veracity of their various statements by well thought out arguments, or by referencing examples pertinent to the point being made.

I don't care if you agree with me or not about golf, racing and baseball, because I'm not changing my opinion.

That, my friend, consitutes what is known in the business as a "statement". I'm grateful to you for starting this interesting discussion, but please don't attempt to shut it down. If your mind can't be changed, then nobody cares what you think.

@annonymous... *cough Switckicker*
I'm not naming names, since some of us seem to take offence to being singled out. I've got aboslutely nothing against the certain person who I'm thinking of... I don't pretend to know anything about him. However, IMO he has said some ignorant things, and he should not be taken aback by people defending the things he shot down. Cool it, man...
I think the post from wich I drew this quote was COMPLETELY legit and certain people should not be so defensive about it.
____________
Regarding the rest of the thread I've fallen behind on: I think that's AWSOME that there are RPS pros, and I think Hardcore Breathing would be a very health benificial activity to take part in
I think that the term sport has been glorified... Footbag is a sport (obviously) since it does, without a doubt, require a great deal of physical fitness and because it fits all the other criteria that the deffinition of a sport lays down. Of course you can say that pretty much anything requires skill and fitness and coordination and all that jazz! It's left up to our descretion to decide what acctually fits into the category of "physical activity".

My dad has pulled legiments in his thumb from playing too much Halo (coolest nerd EVER) so you could say that he was not physically fit enough to play video games. Video games, therefore demand physically fit pros? IMO it is pretty nit-pickey to say that Video Games are "physical activity". There's no denying that Head to Head Halo fits most of the criteria for a Sport. To me, it's no big deal if pro Halo players wanna call it a sport. As I said earlier: the term has been glorified!! There's absolutely no problem with something being called a game or leisure activity!! Since when is a sport BETTER then a leisure activy? Nobody can say that footbag is not a sport because it fits ALL the criteria to a T, but IMO Halo, pocker, darts, sciteific research and all that is not a sport. The main point I really wanna make though is a sport is no better then a liesure activity. Everyone likes different stuff, and I don't think that it should be like "Hey!! I like this alot, and I'm gunna dedicate my life to it... so it should be a sport!!!". To me, that makes NO sense... I really do like pocker, and I seriously give mad props to those who can get really into scientific reasearch.

(my first post!! )

Keep it real

[Tsiangkun]

What ? Threatening violence ? This discussion isn't even three pages long yet. Normally Bitch Kicker saves that technique for the later rounds of the talk.

[Jeremy]

Hey - this is a general note to everybody on the forum. If you can't discuss an issue like the one in this topic in a mature and sensible manner the mod/admin staff will take action to rid the forum of the immaturity. This means no insulting people or being generally aggressive.

It's ok if you're stubborn and continue to argue the same points over and over again if you really want to but you have to appreciate that we expect everybody on this forum to show a sense of decorum and diplomacy – even if you completely hate the other person and wish they were dead. This means that you may find people being polite and talking to you with a hidden agenda to make you look stupid. If this is the case I suggest you put up with it or respond in an equally polite and courteous manner. This forum is run by adults and we expect all the members to behave like adults – even if you are not in fact an actual legal adult.

[C-Fan]

Honestly, I dont know at my age (17) who would act as immature as you.
.

Obviously, you haven`t been part of the footbag community very long

[Jeremy]

But Ken - you're not 17 - you're like 24...

[slapdash21]

What ? Threatening violence ? This discussion isn't even three pages long yet. Normally Bitch Kicker saves that technique for the later rounds of the talk.

zing that is catchy....i think it may just stick!


but also, i want to congratulate Rawsko on an EXCELLENT first post. most people's first post is either: 'sAndMAstEerS R gO0d 4 Hackie Sakin' rite?'
(ok, not their fault, they are new)

or

"MOD EDIT---watch that racism, sexism, and unnecessary vulgar language in your second post"


props!

also, i guess im stupid in this case, and willing to admit it, but i wasnt aware you could enter the official military before you were 18. im apparently wrong, but thats probably because i never even investigated the military as an option.


and i still stand by my generation of random RPS throws by using a die, or pencil, or coin flip. something like that. admittedly, humans cant be perfectly random, unless they base it completely on something outside of their thinking.

[Jeremy]

also, i guess im stupid in this case, and willing to admit it, but i wasnt aware you could enter the official military before you were 18. im apparently wrong, but thats probably because i never even investigated the military as an option.

Interesting off topic. It's against the U.N. rights of a child to join the military before you turn 18 and is an official crime against humanity (having child soldiers). The US allows 17 year olds to join the military but does not make them face conflict until they are 18 (or at least that's the official line) and use this reasoning for their refusal to join the I.C.C. However many analysists claim that they in fact want to resist the I.C.C. because it will stop the US from being able to act like global police and because they may face charges for putting in power dictators who have then committed serious human rights abuses and for their own accused human rights abuses around the world. According to the rules of the I.C.C. it is very unlikely that they would bring charges against the US for their underage soldiers.

[Pascal]

So...back to RPS, I think agree with Peter in that with a little bit of help (be it from a coin, die, calculator, or a bunch of radioactive atoms) you could use an approximately random strategy, that would break even in the long run. Though if you ruled these out from competition, you would either have to memorize long strings of random numbers generated beforehand, or be on your own.

Actually, memorizing random numbers wouldn't be so bad. Each digit from 1 to 9 could actually be used to represent two consecutive throws (3x3=9 combinations). So if you could memorize 10 phone numbers, that would be 10x7x2=140 throws! Heh, actually I would just use phone numbers of friends and aquaintances and hope they were close enough to random.

Plus, congrats to Ben for finally signing up and props on the coherent post!

[busted]

... This means that you may find people being polite and talking to you with a hidden agenda to make you look stupid. If this is the case I suggest you put up with it or respond in an equally polite and courteous manner.

I think this is right to the point of the entire issue. I beleive switchkicker was correct and in fact showed a deep maturity in being able to identify the emotional content of the post that angered him. However, I also agree with the (apparently) general opinion that his posts need to pipe down and play by the "adult rules" of pissing people off.

Here's some examples:
* Instead of "You stupid motherf$#ker" try "Are you trying to be offensive or are you just ignorant of social norms?" (Overt insult stated as a general question)
* Instead of "Go f*@$ yourself" try "Perhaps that angers you too much to think rationally, as your last post clearly exemplifies!" (Attempting to project anger is always fun + overt insult hidden as polite!)

-As for first posts... light years better than mine! Check out my first post, which is laughable. It was legit except that I put it in the wrong Forum topic! http://www.modified.ca/footbag/viewtopic.php?t=10799 I wish an admin would just delete it because TrickTips is a very slow moving forum. So my ignorance will be on 1st page display for at least a few months.

Regards,
-David

PS I'm a HackFiend now so I definitely discovered the answer to my 1st post question.

[Jeremy]

lol we will never delete that topic

[max]

http://www.rpschamps.com/greatmoments7.html

check out the czeck RPS team.

The RPS site is amazing, I had no idea that there was such a well established group worldwide!