LMAO!! True egoist. That's the american style, eh? If everybody would think so, I wonder how many of us would smoke in the first place. Or how would the society work for that matter.
Oh yeah, that's why you have more guns than people there in US.
To how many footbag players you could crash on this planet if they would just think of themselves?
Yeah...that makes perfect sense.
How about people who are not in a position to satisfy themself? Is this world a better place for them too? Oh, right, survival of the fittest!
I already had a pretty lengthy discussion about this with Sam (Nagasake) on AIM, and I'm really not in the mood to discuss it again. You probably wouldn't be able to grasp any of my points anyways.
Basically, you guys misinterpreted what I said (Somewhat correctly in a way) and what I meant by egotism. If you really care too read it (I doubt you do, it's like 5 pages) here's my conversation with Sam:
FrivolousD: only because youve been brainwashed by a century of s
FrivolousD: ocialism
thedisfunktion: hahah
thedisfunktion: No, it's just bull shit
FrivolousD: egoism, in the pure sense, should be the most cherised value we have
FrivolousD: not selflessness
thedisfunktion: Why are you trying to exclusively value one trait or the other? The balance thereof is what lets us be versatile and dynamic. Saying one is better than the other is ignorant bull shit. Being able to combine egoism and selflessness let's you utilize either one more efficiently
FrivolousD: you cannot combine egoism and selflessness
thedisfunktion: You can use them with regard to each other
FrivolousD: in a sense
FrivolousD: in the sense that we must all rely on eachother for survival
FrivolousD: on other humans
thedisfunktion: And you can use either at different times for different purposes
FrivolousD: modernity demands good will, im not denying that
FrivolousD: but modernity trys t oforce to individual to sacrifice himself for others
FrivolousD: which leads to the destruction of the individual
thedisfunktion: What are you talking about?
thedisfunktion: Modernity if anything encourages people to drive and be singular
FrivolousD: in what sense?
thedisfunktion: In the sense that everyone... who has any power, I'll say
thedisfunktion: Their prerogative is pretty machiavellian
thedisfunktion: Pretty egoistic
thedisfunktion: Not very selfless
FrivolousD: yes but you have to ask why people strive for power
thedisfunktion: That's why your comment took me by surprise
FrivolousD: when people strive for power, theyre only subjecting themselves to the whim of others
FrivolousD: say for instance that someone wants to design clothes
FrivolousD: but to be sucsesfull they have to design clothes people want to wear, not what they actually want to design
FrivolousD: so they design clothes and become rich and powerful
FrivolousD: but their wealth and power only stretches as far as the public lets it
FrivolousD: their wealth and power is founded on the public
FrivolousD: and thus they sacrifice their individuality
thedisfunktion: Interesting way of looking at it
thedisfunktion: That's sort of a one-dimensional way of looking at it
FrivolousD: sometimes its the most rational way of looking at things
thedisfunktion: Well, no
thedisfunktion: "but their wealth and power only stretches as far as the public lets it"
thedisfunktion: That's not really true
thedisfunktion: It's true if you're -only- talking about the most superficial product of a company
thedisfunktion: Or person
thedisfunktion: But there are many other products and byproducts of companies that are completely outside the public's sphere of influence
thedisfunktion: Their wealth and power only stretches as far as their investors, supporters, etc. will support them to
thedisfunktion: But in the process a lot of other shit is generated that wasn't in the contract
thedisfunktion: (heh this kind of drifted away from what you were originally talking about)
FrivolousD: im not sure i follow you. stretching to please their investors and supporters only further sacrifices the individual
thedisfunktion: I'm sort of deviating from the relationship between executives/investors
thedisfunktion: Unnecessarily
thedisfunktion: At any rate, I can't really argue that that relationship exists
thedisfunktion: But I think your point about us having egoism at heart is sort of like saying, "oh if only we could fly"
thedisfunktion: Because it's not really in our nature
FrivolousD: agreed
FrivolousD: but its something to strive for
thedisfunktion: And I don't think these interactions really have anything to do with "a century of brainwashing by socialism"
FrivolousD: its only an ideal
thedisfunktion: It's probably the other way around really
FrivolousD: just as liberals strive for the day where we're all dependent on eachother
thedisfunktion: That socialism is a product of our nature
FrivolousD: socialism goes against everything ingrained in us
thedisfunktion: What, sharing and acting in a community?
thedisfunktion: Humans have always acted in groups
FrivolousD: and theirs nothing wrong with that
FrivolousD: but look at all the great things that humankind has made
FrivolousD: they have all spurred from the individual
thedisfunktion: No
FrivolousD: sure the architect has draftsmen, but they only fufill his orders
thedisfunktion: Exactly
thedisfunktion: More social interaction
FrivolousD: right. we rely on other human beings
FrivolousD: their is no denying that
FrivolousD: man is a social creature
thedisfunktion: It takes a VERY strong and unusual will to be able to envision, create, and push through an idea
FrivolousD: and individual will
FrivolousD: an*
thedisfunktion: People get worn down, tired, and discouraged along the way
thedisfunktion: Which is where social interaction comes in to take off the burden
FrivolousD: well... in regards to my architect metaphor, the draftsmen only help accomplish what the architect orders. they only help fufill the architects goal as he, and he alone planned
FrivolousD: as he alone planned*
thedisfunktion: But planning is only a small part of all of the great things we have accomplished
thedisfunktion: The idea catalyzed it
thedisfunktion: But shit, a lot of people have had a lot of great ideas that were never realized
FrivolousD: usually because they were defeated by society
FrivolousD: the gallileos and socrates of the world
FrivolousD: individuals, whose genius is now unquestioned, ruined by society at large
FrivolousD: ruined by the status quo. groups of humans have a stake in maintaing the status quo
FrivolousD: thats why time stops in some communist countries
FrivolousD: no new ideas are formed, because new ideas come from the individual solely. and the individual does not exist in a communist state
thedisfunktion: I'm not arguing for communism here
FrivolousD: i realize that
FrivolousD: im just using communism as the furthest extreme to prove my point
thedisfunktion: I think communism is a poor example for what you're arguing
FrivolousD: whys that
thedisfunktion: Because ideally, yes, the individual doesn't exist in a communist state
thedisfunktion: But ideally communism has not been realized
thedisfunktion: It's the repression and brutality of communism that keeps people down
thedisfunktion: It's the fact that good frameworks that have been previously proven to do something positive were revoked
thedisfunktion: Anti-intellectualism, anti-trade, etc
thedisfunktion: If anything it proves your point but in an indirect way
FrivolousD: repression and brutality are required in a communist state because the spirit of the individual cannot go away
FrivolousD: force must be excersized
thedisfunktion: Such that it's an "individual" (in this case a small group of people) with some power who's gotten into a niche due to its individual drive and creativity
thedisfunktion: And thus is acting out yet another creation of our race -- communism
FrivolousD: im not sure im following you, but saying the individual can be a small group of people in any case is false
FrivolousD: an individual is an individual. a group of people is a group of people no matter 2 or two thousand
thedisfunktion: ... okay
thedisfunktion: Okay, then
thedisfunktion: A communist leader then
thedisfunktion: One guy
thedisfunktion: It doesn't really matter
thedisfunktion: It aids your point at any rate
FrivolousD: im still not exactly sure what you're getting at
thedisfunktion: Communism is an achievement of man like anything else
thedisfunktion: It's something that came out of our heads
FrivolousD: in a sense
FrivolousD: not our heads
thedisfunktion: It's something that has been realized by individual drive
FrivolousD: out of marx and engles heads
thedisfunktion: Our as in us as humans
FrivolousD: engels*
FrivolousD: alright
FrivolousD: i follow
FrivolousD: but still, communism is only a way for the weak and uncreative to impose its will no the strong and brilliant
FrivolousD: on*
thedisfunktion: errr
thedisfunktion: Have you met every communist leader?
FrivolousD: not a single one
thedisfunktion: Then what you're saying holds no water
FrivolousD: explain
thedisfunktion: The fact that you haven't met every person repressed by communism does the same
thedisfunktion: Well
FrivolousD: the argument that one must have first hand experince to know something is always false
thedisfunktion: No
FrivolousD: or rather, to understand something
thedisfunktion: I'm saying right now that you're wrong
thedisfunktion: There are idiots who are repressed by communism
FrivolousD: naturally
thedisfunktion: There are geniuses that help communism flourish
FrivolousD: i guess that depends on your definition of genius
FrivolousD: being a genius and being wily are two different things
FrivolousD: being brilliant is different than being decieving
thedisfunktion: Brilliant people can be deceiving
thedisfunktion: You need to get this 'either-or' shit out of your head
FrivolousD: either or is a result of my more conservative philosophy
FrivolousD: liberalism deals in abstracts
FrivolousD: conservatism deals in absolutes
thedisfunktion: ONLY THE SITH DEAL IN ABSOLUTES
thedisfunktion: Sorry
FrivolousD: hahaha
FrivolousD: geroge lucas is a pinko
thedisfunktion: Yeah, you must be pretty dead set on this either-or shit
FrivolousD: not really
FrivolousD: i realize their is ashade of grey
thedisfunktion: There's not a shade of grey
thedisfunktion: There are millions of shades of grey
FrivolousD: but reasoning and rationale spur from absolutes
FrivolousD: in a sense
thedisfunktion: Yeah, I can see that
FrivolousD: confusion and deception spur from abrastcions
FrivolousD: abstractions*
thedisfunktion: I dunno, I sort of think that reasoning and rationale when it comes to social interaction are pretty worthless
FrivolousD: how so?
thedisfunktion: I have a hard time explaining it
thedisfunktion: Well the way I see it
thedisfunktion: The way I sort of view things happening
thedisfunktion: Is that every second that are a ton of variables that are constantly changing and shifting around and that we act as a result to how those variables affect us, change our mood, change our position
thedisfunktion: And the variables are so complex and all encompassing I just think it's futile to even attempt to rationalize
thedisfunktion: As an example...
thedisfunktion: Take the weather
thedisfunktion: Weather can make people happy
thedisfunktion: It can make people dejected, or pissed off
thedisfunktion: The weather is different everywhere
thedisfunktion: It's different every moment of the day
thedisfunktion: And it's constantly changing
thedisfunktion: And there are all these different similar variables influencing how we act
FrivolousD: right. very subtle things
thedisfunktion: I dunno, I just think it's more complex than saying, "oh, in communism these dudes want to repress because they're generally abusive and worthless pricks"
thedisfunktion: Maybe these guys are abusive because back one day their dads came home from being fired and smacked the shit out of them
FrivolousD: right, its all very sociological
thedisfunktion: Maybe the people who invented all of these amazing things won the genetic lottery
thedisfunktion: etc. etc.
thedisfunktion: So really I just find absolutes in relation to how we deal with each other to be very futile
FrivolousD: haha, well once again you're diverging back to abstractions
thedisfunktion: shrug
thedisfunktion: I'm not really trying to argue anything anymore really
FrivolousD: i dont think either of us have been for a minute
