I'm surprised there is not topic about this already. It's pretty big news going on at the moment. I'm interested in hearing other peoples thoughts.
Personally although I'm a big supporter of free speech I also think that people need to be responsible for what they say and it's equally important to use common sense rather than say everything on your mind. I think the cartoons in question were racist and insulting and the reaction from non muslims to the cartoons - especially in Denmark - really symbolise the current atmosphere towards Muslims such that it is really understandable that they reacted so angrily. Clearly the violence demonstrated is completely counter productive to their cause but it's also easy to understand in todays political climate where it comes from.
There appears to be so much ignorance regarding the issue at the moment. One person wrote into the local paper yesterday to say that it was hypocritical for the Muslims to be burning Christian crosses. Apart from the fact that I think the crosses she was talking about are actually the Danish flag (which has a cross on it), I think the accusation of being hypocritical is like accusing somebody of being hypocritical if they punch somebody who punched them first. I also think that the Muslims don't seem to be calling for religious tolerance and understanding. They're really saying that they feel oppressed and that the non muslim world is against them. I'm sure some muslims are calling for religious tolerance and understanding - definitely the Australian Islamic leaders have been condemning the violence.
It annoys me to see free speech hijacked in such a manner and to see people defending racisism. Yes you have a right to make racist comments and people have an equal right to call you a racist and condemn your work. The fact that newspapers are happy to print cartoons that have no message apart from saying that Islam is founded by a terrorist (or something along those lines) and then defend that is ridiculous. Why not print a message saying "All Muslims fuck off and die"? - They have an equal right of free speech to say that so why don't they? It is a similar message which would result in the same outcome...
Islamic Cartoons
Free speech yay! However, just because you can-doesn't mean you should...
There's more to it than it being a racist cartoon. In Islam, you are not to depict Muhammed in anyway. Much like in Judaism you're shouldn't write G-d and then throw it away-it has to be properly buried etc. Old worn out torah's aren't thrown away/burned, they are buried properly under the law. I understand how the Muslims felt
Not to mention, this was not just offensive, it was breaking Islamic law.
However, their reaction was completely innapropriate. I'm not talking about the buring of flags. I'm talking about kidnapping Germans etc. The cartoon was bad-but the reaction was far worse
There's more to it than it being a racist cartoon. In Islam, you are not to depict Muhammed in anyway. Much like in Judaism you're shouldn't write G-d and then throw it away-it has to be properly buried etc. Old worn out torah's aren't thrown away/burned, they are buried properly under the law. I understand how the Muslims felt
Not to mention, this was not just offensive, it was breaking Islamic law.
However, their reaction was completely innapropriate. I'm not talking about the buring of flags. I'm talking about kidnapping Germans etc. The cartoon was bad-but the reaction was far worse
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carl winslow
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I dont understand why the Muslims are so upset, its just a cartoon.
Do christians get all violent whenever someone mocks JC? No.
Do Jews flip out if someone makes fun of moses? No.
Do Atheists flip out when people make fun of them- and so on.
I mean really, the Muslims arent doing a great job of proving the cartoon wrong. The Cartoon was saying that fundamentalist muslims are violent. and they are. how many people died over this?
Do christians get all violent whenever someone mocks JC? No.
Do Jews flip out if someone makes fun of moses? No.
Do Atheists flip out when people make fun of them- and so on.
I mean really, the Muslims arent doing a great job of proving the cartoon wrong. The Cartoon was saying that fundamentalist muslims are violent. and they are. how many people died over this?
Reginald VelJohnson
Actually interesting because this week in Sunny Hobart there was a big debate and a lot of outrage over a piece of art at a local pub where I've performed footbag before due to a painting of Jesus surronded by males having gay sex. There weren't any riots but perhaps that's because the owners of the pub responded the the criticism by moving the painting to the upstairs gallery instead of keeping it down at the pub level. Also I remember a fairly large controversy about a photo of a Jesus figurine in a urinal (Piss Christ) which resulted in a person coming into the art gallery where it was displayed and hitting the picture with a photo (he was arrested for vandalism).
In any case - as I said before - I don't really think the protests are really about the cartoons but about western attitudes to Islam and the symbolism that the cartoons represent. I don't think Christians really feel like they are a religion that is oppressed and demonised by the powerful nations of the world in the same way that some parts of the Islamic community feel.
I think another important factor is the poverty levels of many of the Islamic countries involved as opposed to Christians who generally come from fairly wealthy countries with high standards of living. I think because of the lower standards of living, religion and belief - which is about building hope - is really taken much more seriously because if these people don't have the hope that their God will improve their lives or they will go to heaven they really only have a constant struggle to survive to live for. In Western countries we have a great deal more leisure time and much more to live for so even the most devout religious people don't rely on their religion to the same extent. For this reason I think that people of lower social economic standings are more likely to defend their religion and take things more seriously.
Also people don't make fun of athiests.
In any case - as I said before - I don't really think the protests are really about the cartoons but about western attitudes to Islam and the symbolism that the cartoons represent. I don't think Christians really feel like they are a religion that is oppressed and demonised by the powerful nations of the world in the same way that some parts of the Islamic community feel.
I think another important factor is the poverty levels of many of the Islamic countries involved as opposed to Christians who generally come from fairly wealthy countries with high standards of living. I think because of the lower standards of living, religion and belief - which is about building hope - is really taken much more seriously because if these people don't have the hope that their God will improve their lives or they will go to heaven they really only have a constant struggle to survive to live for. In Western countries we have a great deal more leisure time and much more to live for so even the most devout religious people don't rely on their religion to the same extent. For this reason I think that people of lower social economic standings are more likely to defend their religion and take things more seriously.
Also people don't make fun of athiests.
Last edited by Jeremy on 09 Feb 2006 00:22, edited 1 time in total.
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shredzilla
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max
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Jeremy: what kind of pubs do you go to??
Secondly, despite the cartoons being out of line do you not think that the reaction was VERY disproportionate? I mean we're talking burning consulates, killing catholic priests (at least one last I heard), kidnappings....
And have you actually seen the cartoons?
Secondly, despite the cartoons being out of line do you not think that the reaction was VERY disproportionate? I mean we're talking burning consulates, killing catholic priests (at least one last I heard), kidnappings....
And have you actually seen the cartoons?
Maxime Boucoiran
French ConneXion
BFC
French ConneXion
BFC
The Republic is a very left wing pub. It used to be called "The Empire" but changed it's name when we had a debate in Australia about being part of the commonwealth. It also is the best live music pub in Hobart.
I have seen the cartoons. I can't imagine myself ever reacting in anywhere near that manner about a cartoon but I don't really think the reactions are because of the cartoons - I think there is a lot of ill feeling towards the West due to the treament of Islam at the moment and I think the cartoons are just being used as an excuse to vent that anger. Of course the reactions are way out of proportion if they're just reacting because of those cartoons but I don't think that's the case.
I have seen the cartoons. I can't imagine myself ever reacting in anywhere near that manner about a cartoon but I don't really think the reactions are because of the cartoons - I think there is a lot of ill feeling towards the West due to the treament of Islam at the moment and I think the cartoons are just being used as an excuse to vent that anger. Of course the reactions are way out of proportion if they're just reacting because of those cartoons but I don't think that's the case.
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full nelson
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Atheists are the worst because they're void beliefs with no moralsJeremy wrote:Also people don't make fun of athiests.
Anyways, I think this is insane. Iran has now said the cartoons were an Isreali conspiracy and has a Holocaust cartoon contest to retaliate. "Death to Danes! Death to Americans!" What the hell? I really can't comprehend what is going through the minds of the rioters. If a select few episodes of South Park are ever shown, then we'll really be in trouble.
Brad
Word.The World is a mass of chaos. 7 billion people trying to co-exist. It's almost impossible when you think about it. Good luck finding a rhyme or reason to anything anyone does in life.
Ok, cartoons were probably insulting to them. But these people need to learn some civilization, goddamn!!
Ales Zazaro
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junkyardjew
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Although there are edicts against depicting the prophet mohammed, it has been done many times before in many muslim countries without this kind of backlash. There are basically two stories as to how the violence got to this point
the first (which I tend to believe) is that three hundred pilgrims died in the Hajj in Mecca this year in stampedes, which was totally the fault of the Saudi government (hundreds died in similar stampedes several years ago at the same place and nothing was done to prevent it this year). As a result, the Saudi press (which is wholly controlled by the Saudi government) began looking for things to distract the muslim world with. It latched onto the cartoons which had created some local anger with muslims in Denmark last september when the cartoons were actually published. The Saudi government started running four or five DAILY articles about it in their press, which is distributed throughout the muslim world (they're the richest muslim country and have a large amount of influence.) You can read this take on things here
then again, middle east expert Juan Cole has a different opinion, which happens to be backed up by dated news articles... This is the "groundswell of dissent" theory, in which the backlash grew as more and more countries became involved in the controversy. His peice is here
the first (which I tend to believe) is that three hundred pilgrims died in the Hajj in Mecca this year in stampedes, which was totally the fault of the Saudi government (hundreds died in similar stampedes several years ago at the same place and nothing was done to prevent it this year). As a result, the Saudi press (which is wholly controlled by the Saudi government) began looking for things to distract the muslim world with. It latched onto the cartoons which had created some local anger with muslims in Denmark last september when the cartoons were actually published. The Saudi government started running four or five DAILY articles about it in their press, which is distributed throughout the muslim world (they're the richest muslim country and have a large amount of influence.) You can read this take on things here
then again, middle east expert Juan Cole has a different opinion, which happens to be backed up by dated news articles... This is the "groundswell of dissent" theory, in which the backlash grew as more and more countries became involved in the controversy. His peice is here
Jared MacKay
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slapdash21
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HighDemonslayer
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I was going to make a thread about this,,,, but I wanted to make a thread about Free Speech, specifically, what types of fines and jail time people like me should get for daring to air opinions.
What we say here could get us fined or jailed in other "free" countries....European countries specifically.
But the Muhammed cartoons is enough right now.
Condemning the backward culture ,and inferior civilization, the rioters would force us to live in, should be a no-brainer.
Your girlfiend can't play Footbag wearing a burqa, can she? Only while you are there to escort her.
Some of the cartoons are alledged to have been faked, in order to increase outrage, which, if true, was a brilliant move by the Mullahs.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=48718
Brilliant because of the caving that has already occured.
Every government is falling over themselves to condemn the cartoons. "Free speech comes with a responsibility, to not offend religious ..blah blah blah."
I think one big French newspaper has already refused to run the cartoons, out of fear. Laws are probably being enacted right now to ban insults to Islam.
French stores pull Danish goods of the shelfs, because of fear.
Editors are fired, or will be jailed, or killed for exercising harmless speech.
The AP though, was to scared to run them.
That just scratches the surface of this outrage.
-n
What we say here could get us fined or jailed in other "free" countries....European countries specifically.
But the Muhammed cartoons is enough right now.
Condemning the backward culture ,and inferior civilization, the rioters would force us to live in, should be a no-brainer.
Your girlfiend can't play Footbag wearing a burqa, can she? Only while you are there to escort her.
Some of the cartoons are alledged to have been faked, in order to increase outrage, which, if true, was a brilliant move by the Mullahs.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=48718
Brilliant because of the caving that has already occured.
Every government is falling over themselves to condemn the cartoons. "Free speech comes with a responsibility, to not offend religious ..blah blah blah."
I think one big French newspaper has already refused to run the cartoons, out of fear. Laws are probably being enacted right now to ban insults to Islam.
French stores pull Danish goods of the shelfs, because of fear.
Editors are fired, or will be jailed, or killed for exercising harmless speech.
The AP though, was to scared to run them.
That just scratches the surface of this outrage.
-n
Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?
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-nathan
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-nathan
Large fines and long jail sentences would be appropriate.HighDemonslayer wrote:I was going to make a thread about this,,,, but I wanted to make a thread about Free Speech, specifically, what types of fines and jail time people like me should get for daring to air opinions.
No I think people should be allowed to say whatever they want. I just think people who say things that are directly insulting and have no positive outcome are wankers.
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HighDemonslayer
- Egyptian Footgod
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Maybe this is a distraction from that Egyptian ferry boat disaster, that the government handled in classic "Katrina-fashion", denying offers of aid as people died.
But this ferry sinking probably dwarved the casualaties of hurricane Katrina (which incidentally ,killed more white people than black people).
-n
But this ferry sinking probably dwarved the casualaties of hurricane Katrina (which incidentally ,killed more white people than black people).
-n
Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?
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-nathan
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-nathan
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HighDemonslayer
- Egyptian Footgod
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correction: the rate was higher for whites ,than blacks. (not the total numbers.)
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?P ... 0113a.html
-n
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?P ... 0113a.html
-n
Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?
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-nathan
Why should this newspaper publish those cartoons?? If it doesn't want to... it just would be useless provocation...HighDemonslayer wrote: I think one big French newspaper has already refused to run the cartoons, out of fear.
¿What is the point here man? What do you want to show us???HighDemonslayer wrote:But this ferry sinking probably dwarved the casualaties of hurricane Katrina (which incidentally ,killed more white people than black people).
Charles Dupuy
La mairie,
75 Adds - Paris
La mairie,
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BainbridgeShred
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Cartoons like this and the "piece of art" that Jeremy was talking about are so stupid. Some idiot cartoonist in Denmark wanted to make a stupid point about free speech and ended up killing 16 people. What an idiot. And then some other moron makes a painting with Jesus next to naked gay guys fucking just because he knows it will get him noticed in the atheistic, post-modernistic art world, which is full of goons anyways. I'd have an urge to act violently towards the "artist" who made that painting with Jesus, and I can understand why Muslims are freaking out over having their propheth displayed as a suicide bomber. Not that I think it's fine how they're responding, but idiot atheist's need to start practicing what they preach in regards to tolerance. Fucking idiot post-modernists.
In my opinion publishing the cartoons in the first place showed bad taste. It doesn't give a reason to burn embassies though either.
Islam forbids the pictures of prophet Muhammed, and making a cartoon where he has a bomb in his head is an insult - you've got to remember that only few of the world's Muslims are terrorists. The terrorists are a minority group that just get their voice heard over the others.
Showing Muhammed as a terrorist made the Muslims angry because it makes the whole religion look violent.
(We Christians have a history that is at least as bloody as the Muslims'.)
Because religion isn't such a great power in the western countries anymore, we may not understand why they got so angry about the cartoons.
Think about it:
If you were a German, would you be angry if everyone told you were a Nazi?
Or if you were a Catholic and someone made cartoons where Virgin Mary was shown as a hooker?
There are always people who are there just to find an excuse to get violent. On both sides.
Islam forbids the pictures of prophet Muhammed, and making a cartoon where he has a bomb in his head is an insult - you've got to remember that only few of the world's Muslims are terrorists. The terrorists are a minority group that just get their voice heard over the others.
Showing Muhammed as a terrorist made the Muslims angry because it makes the whole religion look violent.
(We Christians have a history that is at least as bloody as the Muslims'.)
Because religion isn't such a great power in the western countries anymore, we may not understand why they got so angry about the cartoons.
Think about it:
If you were a German, would you be angry if everyone told you were a Nazi?
Or if you were a Catholic and someone made cartoons where Virgin Mary was shown as a hooker?
There are always people who are there just to find an excuse to get violent. On both sides.
Lauri Jaakkola
Some fun/or less fun facts:
The newspaper who posted the cartoons was earlier doing some Jesus Cartoons but took them back before posting, because they where afraid.
Before posting "the Muhammed Drawings" they asked some people with great knowledge in Islam and the Arabian Nations about it, and they all said it was a bad idea to post something like this. That they could not handle the consequenses(sp?).
This was taken up on the danish footbag forum and people almost killed each other - The freedom of speech is something we are really happy about and honoured for in Denmark
This was wrote by a danish artist called Fealasy, it has some great views and some really interesting points:
The Quran does NOT state that you can NOT draw the prophet, It reads that you can not draw Allah!
The only reasons why Mohammed commonly isn't drawn, is because there was a fear that if people drew his face, they’d forget about Allah and worship an icon, a prophet, instead and as I hear out here on DA, it's because you don't want to show the face of dead loved ones.
And no, it still doesn't make it right to draw him as a terrorist, I take all the distance I can from that media feed idea..
Now, to feed YOU some FACTS, not all the Media bullshit and Fanatic Propaganda. I read quite some parts of the Quran now and also the §77-§226 paragraphs: of the Europerian/danish law.
The law states:
Article 10 - right to freedom of expression
Article 10 provides the right to freedom of expression, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society". This right includes the freedom to hold opinions, and to receive and impart information and ideas.
It should be said that the paragraph of racism stats following (personally translated from the Danish "grundlov" law.)
Chapter 27: Peace and Honour insults
§ 266 b. The one, who publish or with intention of spreading the word to a wide range of people, in which people are treated, mocked or dishonoured because of race, skin colour or origin of birth, faith, or sexual preferences, is punished with a fine, or up till 2 years in prison.
So in other words, SUE that freggin newspaper, you who feel offended and hurt!. Don't support the fanatics who spin 360 degrees and start treating and assaulting the Danish population, that has NOTHING to do with the newspaper nor the drawings. This SHIT only ruining Islam’s reputation even more, pleasing the Media that can send new images of violence and death, blaming it on the common Muslim!
The whole thing should never have happened, I can agree on the fact that Jyllands Posten should have self-censured their article, and thought about the possible pain it could inflict, and prolly never ever posted it.
But the violence and hatred towards the Danish people, not the newspaper, is ridicules, and is only making the western world look down at Islam! Every new building trashed, every person’s death, just messes up the reputation of Islam! Every terrorist makes life hard for his fellow Muslim brothers and sisters, as he calls for Allah and taking civilian’s lifes! They give Muslims a bad reputation, and most of you Muslims who read this probably knows it...
Allah is known for mercy, kindness and holding mans hope high, Allah does not want your children to die, Allah does not want fanatics to smear blood on his or his appointed prophet; Mohammed's hands!
For the freedom of real Islam! One of the most human religions there are! Down with the people who put "terror" in Islam!
Down with press hysteria and provocations, down with the Medias blood thirst!
Let our children think for themselves and be friends, don't tare them apart with fear and hate!
STOP the spilling of blood and kicking dirt on Islam, clean the reputation of this religion and say STOP to Fanatics on both sides!
“You do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari)
For Respect, Freedom and Understanding.
I apologize that the western media is so horny for scandals, and that they don't know how to think before posting, that they act like children.
Riana Møller // Fealasy
This acompanied one of her great drawings, you can see it here
The newspaper who posted the cartoons was earlier doing some Jesus Cartoons but took them back before posting, because they where afraid.
Before posting "the Muhammed Drawings" they asked some people with great knowledge in Islam and the Arabian Nations about it, and they all said it was a bad idea to post something like this. That they could not handle the consequenses(sp?).
This was taken up on the danish footbag forum and people almost killed each other - The freedom of speech is something we are really happy about and honoured for in Denmark
This was wrote by a danish artist called Fealasy, it has some great views and some really interesting points:
The Quran does NOT state that you can NOT draw the prophet, It reads that you can not draw Allah!
The only reasons why Mohammed commonly isn't drawn, is because there was a fear that if people drew his face, they’d forget about Allah and worship an icon, a prophet, instead and as I hear out here on DA, it's because you don't want to show the face of dead loved ones.
And no, it still doesn't make it right to draw him as a terrorist, I take all the distance I can from that media feed idea..
Now, to feed YOU some FACTS, not all the Media bullshit and Fanatic Propaganda. I read quite some parts of the Quran now and also the §77-§226 paragraphs: of the Europerian/danish law.
The law states:
Article 10 - right to freedom of expression
Article 10 provides the right to freedom of expression, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society". This right includes the freedom to hold opinions, and to receive and impart information and ideas.
It should be said that the paragraph of racism stats following (personally translated from the Danish "grundlov" law.)
Chapter 27: Peace and Honour insults
§ 266 b. The one, who publish or with intention of spreading the word to a wide range of people, in which people are treated, mocked or dishonoured because of race, skin colour or origin of birth, faith, or sexual preferences, is punished with a fine, or up till 2 years in prison.
So in other words, SUE that freggin newspaper, you who feel offended and hurt!. Don't support the fanatics who spin 360 degrees and start treating and assaulting the Danish population, that has NOTHING to do with the newspaper nor the drawings. This SHIT only ruining Islam’s reputation even more, pleasing the Media that can send new images of violence and death, blaming it on the common Muslim!
The whole thing should never have happened, I can agree on the fact that Jyllands Posten should have self-censured their article, and thought about the possible pain it could inflict, and prolly never ever posted it.
But the violence and hatred towards the Danish people, not the newspaper, is ridicules, and is only making the western world look down at Islam! Every new building trashed, every person’s death, just messes up the reputation of Islam! Every terrorist makes life hard for his fellow Muslim brothers and sisters, as he calls for Allah and taking civilian’s lifes! They give Muslims a bad reputation, and most of you Muslims who read this probably knows it...
Allah is known for mercy, kindness and holding mans hope high, Allah does not want your children to die, Allah does not want fanatics to smear blood on his or his appointed prophet; Mohammed's hands!
For the freedom of real Islam! One of the most human religions there are! Down with the people who put "terror" in Islam!
Down with press hysteria and provocations, down with the Medias blood thirst!
Let our children think for themselves and be friends, don't tare them apart with fear and hate!
STOP the spilling of blood and kicking dirt on Islam, clean the reputation of this religion and say STOP to Fanatics on both sides!
“You do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari)
For Respect, Freedom and Understanding.
I apologize that the western media is so horny for scandals, and that they don't know how to think before posting, that they act like children.
Riana Møller // Fealasy
This acompanied one of her great drawings, you can see it here