ADD system changes brainstorming

[mc]

in response to the Pendulum Proposal thread...

Whenever we get together, Jorden and I always end up on the topic of why we don't like the ADD system as it is and what we want to do to change it. We usually end up deciding (among other things) that "carry" as a new kind of BOD ADD, or it's own ADD (whatever), should be added to the ADD system. Osis should get this ADD instead of a spin. Pendulum, Rake, "super manalapan toe stall" (pend and rake combined as one back then forth motion with no release in the middle), wrap, infraction, zooming, and others that I'm not thinking of that also involve a carry would get (excuse me steve, not "get". "warrant acknowledgement with") this ADD.

Next comes the question as to whether a carry is part of the move that comes after it or the end of move that comes before it. I propose that this carry ADD be put on the end of the move that comes before it, after the delay. pdx whirling xbd rake, for example, would look like clip >> same in [PDX][DEX] > zipper [DEL][XBD] > carry [BOD], with the carry as the end of the trick, not the delay.

This would make osis more properly a 2, it would just get DEL and carry.

another positive aspect of this addition is that it would encourage players to diversify their games with more carries. ripwalk ending on zoom has just as much spin to it as stepping far osis, I believe that if we acknowledge osis, we should acknowledge it's reverse. It would be awesome to see people doing zooms! although, now that I've said it a bunch more times, I feel we need a better name than zoom.

I think a good thing to do in conjuction with the addition of the carry add would be to

-get rid of xbd delay ADD (because xbd delays are not harder, and thereby do not warrant acknowledgement with an ADD, in my judgement),

-add acknowledgement of xbd dex ADD (although this makes ripstein a 5 under the Cross ADD system so, that might take some adjustment. ideas?),

-add the unusual delay (UND) ADD for every delay besides toe stall, inside stall, outside stall, and clipper, as well as body / head stalls,

-add the roll ADD (ROL) for moves including a body roll, like tootsie roll, and shoulder-all-the-way-down-to-knee roll

-and only award paradox to dexterities that begin "outside" the leg (whirl, rev whirl, swirl, rev swirl, mirage, pickup) and not dexes that occur "inside" the leg (legover, illusion, butterfly, double over down)

This is all just off the top of my head. Yay coffee. What do y'all think? if this gets enough responses, I'll just start my own topic. In fact, I think I'll just start my own topic.

[Troyson]

wow...it took a while to read, and was at times very confusing...but i love the idea. It makes so much more sense for those tricks that are not even deemed as "tricks" because of the stupid add system. If this system of yours was accepted, i think it would diversify the tricks being used now soo much. For example, someone might want to try a whirl>reverse wrap if it will get an extra add, and the overall presentation of tricks would be soo much better.

I like this idea alot!

[Air]

Ughh...

I don't like this idea. It's too confusing.

It will probably end up being same kind of thing with x-dex - some people use it, some don't.

[professor]

I like the ideas, but I don't think an osis should be lowered to a 2 add. It was much harder to learn osis than legover or mirage or atw. I think it deserves a 3, but many of your other suggestions are great.

[slapdash21]

I like the ideas, but I don't think an osis should be lowered to a 2 add. It was much harder to learn osis than legover or mirage or atw. I think it deserves a 3, but many of your other suggestions are great.

werd

i like the carry idea, because i feel osis warrents 3 adds (it certainly feels different/harder than clipper...and has some extra un-named component, and i dont like calling it a spin), but the spin body add doesnt really define the move well for me. i also really like the (ROL) add would that could stuff rolling down to an osis? pinch set ROL to osis? one trick? two?

[footjoe]

i say if your high when shredding all tricks should get the (high) add because it makes it more difficult

[qphox]

So, HERE's an idea:

Let's try to limit posts in this thread to those who actually feel they have something to contribute, eh Joe?


I like this idea, and I don't find it confusing at all Aleksi.

I'm not sure about zooming vs. osis though...if osis doesn't get an add for a spin, why would zooming?...for the exact same "amount" of spin. Take pixie ss osis > gyro legover for example... ?

[mc]

peter, if all my changes were implemented, osis would be a 2 and clipper would be a 1. That seems about right to me.

and, kevin, osis and zooming wouldn't get spin adds. they'd get carry adds

[shredzilla]

I really like the way osis and clipper count right now. Osis is a pretty tough 3, and takes a lot of training to hit cleanly on a consistant basis, much more so than a legover, mirage, or a bubba which I feel is the toughest of the basic 2s. Osis is a staple move to beginning guiltless shred, and now with ducking becoming more of a trend, so is ducking clipper.

Clipper is a more advanced concept than toe stall IMO. I was doing toe stalls for a long time when I hacked, they're maybe a day or two worth of learning where as dialing a clipper can take weeks or months starting out. The way these moves are currently counted they lead a beginner player into a reward system. If you got the exact same reward for clipper as you would toe, what would be the point of becoming a crossbody player?

I'm kinda happy with the way things are on Add4s and below. Can't comment on much else because it's above my skill level. The ROL and UND adds seem pretty neat though. Like rewarding for clipper, these also would encourage people to diversify their game.

[qphox]

Wait wait wait Matt, so zooming gets a carry add? For the beginning set? I thought carries can only occur at the end. :/

And what makes zooming different than regular clip set spinning? Just because the previous component was different...? Ideally the trick should begin from the exact same position in both cases.

[Jorden]

Matt brings up some very good points. Some I totally agree with, and others that could use some working out.

I have to head somewhere in like, 5 minutes. A couple thoughts:

I agree with the carry add. Osis, drag, xbd rake, etc all are given [bod] adds all representing a spin element (I think). I wouldn't consider any of these to actually contain a spin. For osis, I find it's more of a slight carry into xbd position, a lowering of the body and twist of the hips and shoulders. There's no shuffling of feet or reorientation of body position between the start and end of this trick, thus no spin.

A big hole in the add system nowadays is the common surfaces in uncommon positions given low value. I'd like to see an unusual position element incorporated. Unusual, as Matt mentioned, is anything besides toe, inside, ouside and knee (maybe clipper) in standard forward position. This would balance tricks like anchor, dragon, doof, zipper, flying xbd knee, monster etc. and make them slightly more practical in everyday shred and calculated competitive events (ie Shred 30). Although we value these tricks aesthetically over commonplace surfaces, the add-consciousness of today's players causes most people to avoid using these unusual positions. Creating emphasis on these surfaces could help bring obscure and underused positions into more diverse and commonplace tricks. Shred can only go so far with the toe-clipper mentality. Let's mix things up!

Just my opinion.

Yes, I'm late.

Jorden

[dyalander]

The way i see it the add system only matters for 1) shred 30; 2) as tool to aid understanding, particularly for beginners.
Any changes should keep this in mind.
Forget difficulty, the add system will never accommodate it and we can never agree on it anyway.
With this in mind, i think the x-bod add is still useful.
A carefully worded "carry add" could be useful.
However, I think a case can be made for keeping shred 30 a distinctly different event from routines. While unusuals are currently "undervalued" (for want of a better word) by the add system, good judging will reward them in all the judged comps. I don't feel the need to push to allow unusuals to enter into shred 30. If you look at the Jan online comps, in the novice sic 1 the lap stall set placed highly with all the judges, that should encourage ppl to use some imagination.
All this seem a little irrevelent when the ifpa hasn't updated the rules in ages.

[Muffinman]

-get rid of xbd delay ADD (because xbd delays are not harder, and thereby do not warrant acknowledgement with an ADD, in my judgement),

*Cough cough* mister crank...

I like the ideas a lot, but by these rules, moves like ducking clipper, spinning clipper, and butterfly would also become 2 adds That doesn't seem right. Maybe butterfly, but certainly spinning clipper is 3 adds.

[Senor Grommet]

One can't just get rid of the XBD add because one thinks it is "easy" or not any more difficult than a non-crossbody move. How long did it take to hit your first toe stall as compared to clipper?

When done right, osis DOES have a spin. There is little to no "carry" in an osis because the stalling foot should be going down with the bag and then up with the bag while the body is turning.

Clipper is a 2. Osis is a 3. I will not support anything otherwise, unless the toe stall no longer receives an add.

[Guest_2]

How could clipper not receive cross body add? It definately requires and additional degree of difficulty to execute than an inside stall

[Jeremy]

Some interesting points brought up.

First I have to agree with Dyalan that adds really are fairly insignificant in footbag these days - apart from shred 30 and I'd rather use a new system of scoring shred 30s than change the add system - that seems like a much more effective way of dealing with the problem.

The other issue is - how are you actually going to change the add system? Even if every single person in this topic agreed with the proposals what would you do from there?

The body that would make such changes is the IFC and there have been no changes to the add system in a fairly long (relative) period of time. Probably because at the moment the only members of the ifc-freestyle committee are myself, Jan Zimmerman, Jan Struz, Steve Goldberg, Vince Bradley and Scott Davidson - all of which are very busy people with a number of priorities that we're working on apart from the add system. (like updating the freestyle routine rules). Topics like this one come up all the time but nobody ever takes the next step and actually does anything to implement those ideas. Any IFPA member can apply to join the IFC but it's pretty unlikely that your opinions will ever have any impact if the only place you voice them is at modified. Modified has no official status and does not make any decision regarding the rules for freestyle footbag.

[brian relly]

One can't just get rid of the XBD add because one thinks it is "easy" or not any more difficult than a non-crossbody move. How long did it take to hit your first toe stall as compared to clipper?

When done right, osis DOES have a spin. There is little to no "carry" in an osis because the stalling foot should be going down with the bag and then up with the bag while the body is turning.

Clipper is a 2. Osis is a 3. I will not support anything otherwise, unless the toe stall no longer receives an add.

[Muffinman]

How could clipper not receive cross body add? It definately requires and additional degree of difficulty to execute than an inside stall

Actually clippers are a LOT easier for me than inside stalls -- I find that clippers take a lot of ankle crank, but insides take a lot of knee crank, and I think that the ankle crank is easier to train and probably easier on your body. I'm not really against clipper being a 1, it's just a lot of the clipper moves that would end up being 2s that doesn't really follow the consistency of the logic behind this idea.

[janis]

The add system has really shaped the style of footbag making it attractive in events like shred 30 to include lots of osis/clipper moves, unusual/body freestyle moves currently get punished by the add system so people don't tend to do them as much. Currently the add system is unfair on moves like dragon, headbanger, shin stall etc... but why should we care how many adds the moves are, they are still cool moves.

Forget difficulty, the add system will never accommodate it and we can never agree on it anyway.

^^ agreed.
Perhaps we should forget about adds and just enjoy our shred


If the add system is as entrenched as it seems I'd propose the following changes: extra add for dragon and an extra add for difficult sets (ie dlo from shin stall set would get an extra add as it is so much harder than toe/ clipper set)

[Outsider]

-get rid of xbd delay ADD (because xbd delays are not harder, and thereby do not warrant acknowledgement with an ADD, in my judgement),

Objection, your honor! Okay, clippers are admittedly pretty easy, but consider some of the other consequences of getting rid of the cross-body ADD: dragons are equivalent to outside stalls and cross-body rake is indistinguishable from regular rake. First, I doubt that anyone would consider a dragon of equal difficulty to an outside stall, and difficulty aside just consider the reaction most people have the first time they see this move. Second, I think cross-body rake is harder than regular rake, if they are done with good form (in my opinion, many [most?] people's cross-body rake is pretty "the" because they tend to catch the toe stall directly underneath them, and there is hardly a hint of the cross-body element to these tricks, but in theory they should be caught in an obviously cross-body position and then scooped down underneath and in front). (Shit, those things can hardly even be called a "rake" the way many people do them. In my opinion, the rake has got to be caught by the toe while the foot is still above the bag and then scooped forward. If you're not catching that sucker until the foot is below the bag, well, its just a toe stall with a little scoop). (I'm getting of track here, sorry...)

add the unusual delay (UND) ADD for every delay besides toe stall, inside stall, outside stall, and clipper, as well as body / head stalls,

How is this different from the current rule? It sounds basically like what we've already got for the Unusual category. Oh, and one other little problem with your wording: the unusual category applies to unusual KICKS as well (as it should) not just delays.

Okay, thats just my response to a few of Matt's ideas.

Now, since you said that we're brainstorming here...

Here's my idea: Get rid of the DELAY ADD. Yes, yes, I know, delays are harder than basic kicks. Yes, I know, it took some real effort to learn your basic delays, but hear me out -- Delays don't make freestyle harder, they make it EASIER. Just consider how many actual tricks you could link back to back without setting and catching each trick from a stall. How many double-dexes could you hit back to back without setting and finishing from a stall? Try doing that stuff between kicks instead of stalls AND THEN you might have a new definition of "difficulty". Just consider the record for Ripwalk is almost double the record for Flying Clipper, yet Ripwalk has twice as many ADDs as the humble Jester, and then ask yourself if you can even consistently hit even half as many flying clippers back to back as you can ripwalks. Consider that the record for dragonfly is barely more than 1/10th the record for mirage, and the record for flying butterfly kicks (alternating sides) is barely more than 1/20th the record for butterfly stalls (alternating sides).

I'll repeat this once more: freestyling without delays is harder than freestyle with all (or mostly) delays, and yet we reward ourselves with an additional element of difficulty for each stall we do. Lets get real: an Additional Degree of Difficulty should be rewarded for each trick we link WITHOUT stalling.

Just brainstorming...