The Burden of believing in God

sen · Post by **sen** » 13 Feb 2006 21:33

God gave us freedom of choice becuase it makes him happy when people willingly follow him.

It also proves to satan (who is fighting for supremacy) that people WANT to worship god.

What would a bunch of robot's progamed to worship prove??

By the way, Dan, would you explain why you don't like my illustration?

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 13 Feb 2006 21:40

sen wrote:God gave us freedom of choice becuase it makes him happy when people willingly follow him.

Does it make Him sad when Billions of His 'creations' perish and burn for all eternity?

The sick, pathetic part of it all is we couldn't just have a normal life with happiness and footbag. It had to be this test, man f#@k a test. If you DON'T love me enough to accept me without a test, then you damned me to Hell from the second you created me.

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 13 Feb 2006 21:41

NO, I would not rather have the choice between good and evil. I'd like to not be able to do evil things, if that will lead me to Hell, and I resent God for that. I'm sorry if that is blasphemy, but don't stick a kid in a candy store with tons of free candy and tell him not to eat it. It's a stupid test.

Read my response to your post in the Cigarette section before you read this one. I ask that of you because in both that topic and this one you're almost saying you'd rather be an automon as opposed to a real individual. Do you realize that by saying you'd rather have no choice between good and evil, that you're actually denying your own individuality, your own freedom of choice. Without God granting us free will, you, as you know yourself currently, would not even exist. God's greatest gift to man is his individuality. I ask you, as a citizen of the world, not to put your own petty wants (That being not breathing in smoke and wanting the human race to be identical) before the betterment of mankind.

sampotter · Post by **sampotter** » 13 Feb 2006 21:42

I'm pretty sure this hasn't been said before, but if it has been, whoops.

Part of being an atheist is not letting yourself be scared by stuff like hell. If you're an atheist that's trying to justify an entrance into hell... Well, somehow that seems contradictory to me. For me being an atheist is more about living and loving life and not letting corrupt organizations (religion) hoodwink me into a wasted life. I'll have a relationship with my own set of beliefs as I grow older and work through more experiences in life. When I die I hope that I'll be ready to die, but really, I'm not scared either way. I won't have the facilities to feel regretful. Sorry, I'm sort of rambling. Let's see if this puts it more succinctly: to me being an atheist is about coming to terms with being an organic organism and what that entails.

sen · Post by **sen** » 13 Feb 2006 21:45

shredzilla wrote:
sen wrote:God gave us freedom of choice becuase it makes him happy when people willingly follow him.
Does it make Him sad when Billions of His 'creations' perish and burn for all eternity?

The sick, pathetic part of it all is we couldn't just have a normal life with happiness and footbag. It had to be this test, man f#@k a test. If you DON'T love me enough to accept me without a test, then you damned me to Hell from the second you created me.

Yes it would God VERY sad if billions of his creations died in a firery hell.

The Bible doesn't actually say this. It does say that the living are concious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are consious of nothing at all. That can't hurt too much. The Hell used in the bible refer's only to the common grave of mankind, not some hot, turture, dungen.

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 13 Feb 2006 21:48

Yeah, I unfortunately don't believe in that either. I know there's something else besides physical reality that we see with our eyes. Is it the Christian version? Or the buhddist version? That's basically my main problem. I once had a theory that Satan created all other religions to give people more freedom of choice.

It's the same reason Phillip Morris has so many brands of cigarrettes. The best way to sell someone something is to give them many choices. That way they're forced to decide, instead of saying yes or no.

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 13 Feb 2006 21:49

shredzilla wrote:Yeah, I unfortunately don't believe in that either. I know there's something else besides physical reality that we see with our eyes. Is it the Christian version? Or the buhddist version? That's basically my main problem. I once had a theory that Satan created all other religions to give people more freedom of choice.

It's the same reason Phillip Morris has so many brands of cigarrettes. The best way to sell someone something is to give them many choices. That way they're forced to decide, instead of saying yes or no.

I was responding to Sam Potter's post with this post

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 13 Feb 2006 21:52

As for those who don't believe in God . . . Here's something to think about. You are looking at a computer monitor right now, was it designed and build by someone? Or did it simply happen?
All around you, you see the beautiful earth we live in. Was it desgined and made by someone or did it just happen? If the earth was just a little bit closer to the sun we would burn, if it was further away we would freeze. Coincidence??

By the way, Dan, would you explain why you don't like my illustration?

Certainly. I don't like your analogy because you're not actually debating any of the points brought up in the topic. You're not dealing with facts. You're stinging together two unrelated points (The creation of the Earth and the creation of computers) and tying to two together. Sadly, their are many arguments that stand against whether the world could have been created by chance instead of God, but their are no arguments that the computer was created by chance. Thus, your analogy falls short of encompassing what you were trying to prove. For more informatino on what a strawman argument is, look here http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lilyth/strawman.html

Part of being an atheist is not letting yourself be scared by stuff like hell. If you're an atheist that's trying to justify an entrance into hell... Well, somehow that seems contradictory to me. For me being an atheist is more about living and loving life and not letting corrupt organizations (religion) hoodwink me into a wasted life. I'll have a relationship with my own set of beliefs as I grow older and work through more experiences in life. When I die I hope that I'll be ready to die, but really, I'm not scared either way. I won't have the facilities to feel regretful. Sorry, I'm sort of rambling. Let's see if this puts it more succinctly: to me being an atheist is about coming to terms with being an organic organism and what that entails.

Find me a human that, atleast somewhat, isn't "scared by stuff like hell", and I'll cede you my point. The fact is, every human is somewhat scared by the concept of hell, and that makes us human. To be a complete Atheist is to deny the human urge to be scared of the unknown, which God instilled in us, and thus being an Atheist is contradictory in itself. And "coming to terms with being an organic organism" has nothing to do with this argument. I don't think I know a single religious person who denies that they are a organic organism. The only point of contention is how we came to be organic organisms.

To put in more succinctly: See you in Hell, Sam. And the funny part is, I know that scares you. Even if just the littlest bit.

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 13 Feb 2006 22:06

Tell me which religion to choose Dan. Tell me which one will make it so I don't have to go to Hell. Then tell me WHY

cd · Post by cd » 13 Feb 2006 22:15

sen wrote:God gave us freedom of choice becuase it makes him happy when people willingly follow him.

But is it truly willingly following him if there's the threat of eternal damnation if you don't? Seems more like coercion to me. I don't mean to attack your beliefs, but this just doesn't make sense to me.

If God demands that I stop thinking for myself and blindly obey authority (as well as threaten me with damnation if I question things that have been preached to me by other fallible people) with no real reason to do so other than it all might be true, then I guess that means I'm in league with Satan. (but really, I think the concept of both God and Satan as conscious anthropomorphic 'beings' with such wants and desires is absurd.)

I have more thoughts on the role that religion plays in our society and how much better off we would all be if we rejected the notion of an absolute good/evil and instead each figured out morality for ourselves... yada yada, but its getting late.

I just have a question for any of the believers... I'm really curious what made you choose to believe in what you do? Other than it sounds a hell of a lot better than rotting in the ground.
Is it some feeling? Is it because those were the beliefs you were raised to have? Really, I'm not asking because I want to argue with them. I really just want to know why (unless asking why is opposed to your beliefs... in that case just ignore me

)

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 13 Feb 2006 22:19

The Bible only states that the prerequisites to entering Heavan are to know and love God. To me, which means you choose to reach that end isirrelevent. I've met Buddhist's and Jew's and Muslim's who are just like solid rock. You press up against them and they don't budge. Thats how spirutally strong they are! God doesn't have a religion. We're all his children. All he wants is for us to understand him.

Basically, religion isn't the determining factor in whether or not your are damned to an eternity spent in hellfire.

I don't understand your last question though. Tell you why what? What do you want explained? Why anything? Why this, why that, why her, why him? Asking why is just continuing to use your rationale brain, which as I said earlier, you need to shed to know God. "Why" is what keeps us from entering God's Kingdom.

Iron Clad Ben · Post by **Iron Clad Ben** » 13 Feb 2006 22:22

BainbridgeShred wrote:Find me a human that, atleast somewhat, isn't "scared by stuff like hell", and I'll cede you my point. The fact is, every human is somewhat scared by the concept of hell, and that makes us human.

There are plenty. Only Christianity and Islam have a "hell". I was brought up in a religion that doesn't have one. I've never believed in it. Fast forward to today. Now I am an athiest.

sidetrack on the concepts of heaven and hell
I think the concepts of heaven and hell are quite absurd actually. The whole concept of reward and punishment is to condition you to change to the proper behavior afterwards. A lifetime in either bliss or agony serves no purpose, as there is no time period after for it to keep you doing good things if you were good and stop you from doing bad things if you were bad.

back on topic
The reality of the situation is that we are all human beings with brains that have limited funcionality as all of our experiences are subjective. In my reality there is no god. It simply does not fit into my frame of the universe. There's lots of reasons. Just like people who have no question in their mind that there is a god, I have no question in my mind that there isn't. I won't go into detailed reasons, because unless someone has a very similar map, they are likely to disagree and I can only take so much "theological" (that should not be a word, it is an oxymoron) debate.

sen · Post by **sen** » 13 Feb 2006 22:22

For a long time I believed what I do simply because that was what I was raised to beileve. As I've gotten older and more independant, I have begun to study the Bible and now accept the truths that I have because they make sence and is what the Bible says.

And you didn't attack my beliefs as I do not belief in Hell as being a place of eternal damnation.

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 13 Feb 2006 22:25

But is it truly willingly following him if there's the threat of eternal damnation if you don't? Seems more like coercion to me. I don't mean to attack your beliefs, but this just doesn't make sense to me.

Saying that God is coercing humans is absolutely the silliest thing I've ever heard. By saying that, you're assuming that God exists. Thus, assuming a monolithic God does exist, one must assume that he is a perfect, unfaultable God. This means that whatever God says is ultimately true, and that if he says there is a Hell, then their is one. And if he says that sinners go there, then sinners go there.

It would only be coercion is God made it known to humans that he existed. The thing is, we aren't sure on that. We don't know if Heavan and Hell exists, so we can't say whether or not God is coercing us unless we first know if God is real.

But reall, getting ourselves out of eternal damnation isn't being forced or coerced to follow him, it's watching out for your own hide.

professor · Post by **professor** » 13 Feb 2006 22:28

The Bible only states that the prerequisites to entering Heavan are to know and love God.

Not exactly.....

John 3:16 wrote:3:16"For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:6 wrote:Jesus answered, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me.

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 13 Feb 2006 22:30

I'm really curious what made you choose to believe in what you do? Other than it sounds a hell of a lot better than rotting in the ground.
Is it some feeling? Is it because those were the beliefs you were raised to have

No, I wasn't raised to have my beliefs. Infact, everyone in my immideate family is either Atheist or Agnostic.

There are plenty. Only Christianity and Islam have a "hell". I was brought up in a religion that doesn't have one. I've never believed in it. Fast forward to today. Now I am an athiest.

Buddy, this doesn't change the fact that the idea of a Hell scares you. Start arguing my points, and not going off on things like whether or not some religions have the concept of Hell written into their scriptures.

And even though some religions don't speak on a Hell, doesn't mean that their isn't one. Some religions don't even speak of a God, but it is assumed he is there by the relation of what their prophets say. Simply by there being prophets assumes a God.

HooD · Post by **HooD** » 13 Feb 2006 22:41

shredzilla wrote: but don't stick a kid in a candy store with tons of free candy and tell him not to eat it.

Sounds like a winning reality show to me !

Anyways, I don't have much say since I don't have much belief. I would attempt to argue a point, but there isn't a use in it, I'll either be bashed/burned/ or just have my point turned over by the pointless. But as for the veeeery first post, it's a very simple point made, and yes, I come close to agree'ing with most of it.

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 13 Feb 2006 22:43

Not exactly.....

John 3:16 wrote:
3:16"For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:6 wrote:
Jesus answered, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me.

Who are you to say that people of other faiths aren't following the precepts of Jesus, and thus following Jesus. I believe that, for instance, Ghandi did more as a Hindu than he could of as a Christian convert. He followed God's plan as God intended for him, and lived a very "Christian" life.

Iron Clad Ben · Post by **Iron Clad Ben** » 13 Feb 2006 22:47

BainbridgeShred wrote:
There are plenty. Only Christianity and Islam have a "hell". I was brought up in a religion that doesn't have one. I've never believed in it. Fast forward to today. Now I am an athiest.
Buddy, this doesn't change the fact that the idea of a Hell scares you. Start arguing my points, and not going off on things like whether or not some religions have the concept of Hell written into their scriptures.

How can someone fear hell if they know the concept of it is a joke. The concept of it is such that anyone who believes in it fears in it. Judiasm does not have a hell, there is only a heaven. Yet you claim that every religion does. I seriously doubt your knowledge of religions extends beyond Christianity. Hell is a bunch of horeshit. When I die my body is decomposing in the earth and that's the end.

BainbridgeShred wrote: And even though some religions don't speak on a Hell, doesn't mean that their isn't one. Some religions don't even speak of a God, but it is assumed he is there by the relation of what their prophets say. Simply by there being prophets assumes a God.

So you are basically arguing that since no one can prove or disprove it, it must be true? That argument is fundamentally flawed, something must be proven to be true. And once again, your brilliant brain can't spell...

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 13 Feb 2006 22:52

How can someone fear hell if they know the concept of it is a joke.

Because no one knows for sure whether or not Hell is or isn't "a joke". Your argument starts making no sense when you start talking about how people "know" things. Saying you know that their isn't a Hell is as big an assumption as me saying that I "know" their is a Heavan. i fon't know that their is one. I have no doubt that their is one, but I dont KNOW that their is one. I'm not expecting you to understand what I'm saying.

Judiasm does not have a hell, there is only a heaven. Yet you claim that every religion does. I seriously doubt your knowledge of religions extends beyond Christianity. Hell is a bunch of horeshit. When I die my body is decomposing in the earth and that's the end.

Where did I claim that every religion has a Hell? What are you even talking about? Start arguing my points and I might give you the time of day. Until then, make a new topic if you want to argue about things unrelated to this thread.