Getting stylers to diversify

mc · Post by mc » 14 Feb 2006 07:44

hi.

I'd like to see more diversity among freestylers. I think a lot of players make limited choices regarding moves they use and concepts they train. I think one of the main reasons for this is the add system's limited acknowledgements of concepts. This results in players who are seeking to go for a guiltless, tripless, etc, level of play using these same limited acknowledgements to shape their own game.

My discussion for changes in the add system with the intent of removing some of these mental limitations yielded a lot of nebulous speculation, plenty of disagreement, and a dash of discouragement.

Myself and others suggested the old, tried-and-true method of enacting internal change as a means of being an example to follow, and I agree with that.

Now, how else can we enact Weirdness Awareness? Do you feel that your game is limited by adds or other factors, or maybe you feel I'm a mad footbag scientist who's talking crazy talk, and your game isn't actually limited? How do you feel about the state of the perception among freestylers of the game and it's possibilities?

I just want to stir up some discussion on this, I think some good thoughts could come of it.

Jdigges · Post by **Jdigges** » 14 Feb 2006 07:56

I actually never think of my game as guitless or tiltless or anything. i just shred really, and don't really think of ADDs unless i just hit a new 6, and then im like siiick new 6. Although, i definitley agree with you on that maybe the add system does discourage some players from experiementing more, and traveling off the path of conventional shred. your definitley not a mad footbag scientist haha

DanielWhittle · Post by **DanielWhittle** » 14 Feb 2006 08:01

I am a beginner and I find that instead of naming how many adds a trick is I just try to learn them (although I am aware of the adds that are given for the perticular trick).

I set myself a few things that i would like to learn, and then when i learn these tricks, I can have more variety in my runs.

dazza · Post by **dazza** » 14 Feb 2006 08:41

I dont know - but i want to learn everything : bop, shuffle, dexless,
big trix, all the sets and core moves and i also like 2 travel into the
world of the unusual, so that i can have a free-style eventually .

Its true that adds and certain prestige tricks are limiting factors,
but only if one perceives them in that manner.
Just look at Aaron Ortons latest achievements in the world of fearless :
he wants to get better at this certain level, but he stays creative nonetheless,
spinning ducking osis>ripped warrior is far, far away from the 5-5-5
pdx whirl component conformity.

In the short time i play footbag i was glad to meet and shred with some
creative people like Eli, Michal, Stefan Siegert, Renato Zülli and Jakob Wagner,
who trancend the over-technical way most people play by
putting more emphasis on good form and weird ideas .

In short i think creativity is on its way up and i encourage everybody
to think about the hows and whys of their game, i call for a more
integral, individual and experimental approach

!

To quote the great Griffin family : GO BRAIN !!!

Caleb · Post by **Caleb** » 14 Feb 2006 08:53

I disagree with the statement that adds limit shred/creativity. Footbag is really the only alternative sport I can think of that has such a vast amount of options and tricks at any point in playing the game. I do live primarily in the realm of "conventional shred" but when I'm midstring and I bust out a Blurry whirl and then have literally about 40 options of where to go from there, I'd say that's plenty.

I encourage all the creativity and innovation in the world when it comes to footbag. But in almost all sports, competition is separate from the "weird." You don't see street ballers playing in the NBA and you don't see refractions and frigid osises in Shred30. The add system is the basis of competition and it doesn't play nicely with the "weird" tricks some people can come up with like it compliments textbook, guiltless shred.

The "weird" is also almost synonymous for "the" if I'm to give my brutally honest opinion. It's only natural that these experimental and ground breaking tricks will not be as clean as formula shred. I'll pick on Jordan Moir for a minute since he knows I am a big fan and he's regarded as a god amongst men on this forum haha:

At the recent Seattle Juggling and Footbag event, Jordan's Sick Trick was an obscene array of stylie leg motion that I couldn't even follow. It was a perfect example of the "weird." Now, I don't think that this trick should have been in competition. It was a hard trick, and I send my props, don't get me wrong. But it wasn't exactly the cleanest. I don't expect it to be. With that symp swirling spinning component, it's a trick that would be tough to hit crystal clear. The add system doesn't give this trick justice and I say for good reason. In, competition I would have put this trick below a clean Gauntlet or any other high-level, well-documented (,and as some may say, unimaginative trick). On the sidelines though, Jordan's Sick Trick would have been more than hailed by me. I just don't think weird belongs in organized competition and that's exactly what the add system filters out and causes debate over. Keep the weird in the circles, we all know it's hard and we all want/try to hit them. Adds or no, it's pretty sweet.

To close, this isn't just about competition. I'm just using competition as an example for arguement. You say adds don't give weird tricks justice. I say they're not supposed to.

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 14 Feb 2006 09:56

Caleb wrote:I encourage all the creativity and innovation in the world when it comes to footbag. But in almost all sports, competition is separate from the "weird." You don't see street ballers playing in the NBA and you don't see refractions and frigid osises in Shred30. The add system is the basis of competition and it doesn't play nicely with the "weird" tricks some people can come up with like it compliments textbook, guiltless shred.

That is an excellent point.

However I disagree with you saying Jorden should not have hit that trick in competition at SJFF. It was a "cool trick" competition for jugglers and footbag players alike. It wasn't a "Most difficult established footbag trick" competition. I mean, Peter Irish's trick was to balance a wooden rod upright on each hand, with his eyes closed, for 2 minutes. That's hardly on par with gauntlet either.

Caleb · Post by **Caleb** » 14 Feb 2006 10:04

Well then I take back what I said. I was under the impression it was a sick trick competition. Not just like a, Cool Shit We Can Do, show. LOL. (Sidebar: That balancing thing is really cool. Haha) And I hoped it wouldn't come out like a "Bad Destroyer. Tisk Tisk" kind of statement. Because it's not. It's just an example to see the opinions of people.

So we'll say this: If ANYONE were to walk up to a Sick Trick competition and hit something weird and not something that is conventionally difficult. I would say that is not right for competition. Agree? Disagree? I'm interested in what people think about this.

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 14 Feb 2006 10:31

It depends. I mean...there's lots of "weird" things that aren't particularily difficult, so there's still got to be a serious degree of difficulty going on to be judged as such.

I wouldn't go up there and hit Rory's Double-Cross-Body Heel thing...

mc · Post by mc » 14 Feb 2006 10:50

caleb, disagree. If it had occurred to kenny shultz to do tootsie rolls when he was breaking ground for the whole sport, maybe tootsie rolls would be much much much more common than they are now, and they'd have their own ADDs, etc etc. I really don't think the "appropriateness" of tricks should be decided upon whether or not they fit into the established realm of "common" freestyle. What does "conventional" difficulty have to do with whether something should be used for competition or not? and furthermore, what is conventional difficulty?

The only reason that they're conventions is because they've been done before, and the reason they were done before is because someone decided to break ground and do something new, not because they're part of some elite group of footbag maneuvers that are somehow the "right" or "appropriate" moves for a player to do.

Also, Caleb, the ADD system is not exclusively the basis of competition. It has a huge effect on how people freestyle because they shoot for things like guiltless, tiltless, etc. Lots of beginning players shoot for playing guiltless, so that leads to a VERY limited set of tricks they're going to skool. Instead of one noob learning to do outside kick set SS mirage and another learning to do far refraction, they're all going to learn butterfly, pdx mirage, and osis. A few years ago, the ADD system made people think that moves ending in Rake, like Montage Rake, were "cheater" or "ADD hunter" moves, because throwing the rake on there was "too easy" of a way to get one more ADD on your trick. People are less likely to do / try that kind of trick if it has that kind of stigma.

Another example... the ADD system says that clippers warrant 2 points whereas toe delays warrant 1 point. Maybe clippers are a little harder for a noob to do when they're learning, but clippers can't be that hard for experienced players, because in case anyone hasn't noticed, our sport is experiencing a lot of clipper dominance these days. Players go for higher ADDs per contact, so they do more clipper moves.

So, my point is, ADDs don't just count in competition. They shape our sport and the way we see our sport and the way we play our sport, and if we're going to keep using them, I really feel that they need to reflect a more diverse view of how we play our game. If more diverse things get recognition, players will be motivated to do them, and when more players are doing the more diverse things on a regular basis, they won't be "weird" any more. They'll just be part of our repertoire, and will fit just fine with competition.

So, yeah, ADDs are one way to diversify (or not)... that was the other thread... any other ideas?

I like Daryl's outlook. Those are some great innovative players he's mentioned... Maybe things are better than I make them seem

Caleb · Post by **Caleb** » 14 Feb 2006 10:51

Well sick trick impies one of your hardest tricks. Can weird be judged with conventional? Can weird be in competition at all?

*Edit* Sorry. Matt seemed to be able to type that gigantore post before I could type three sentances.

I suppose I'm stuck in the middle then Matt. I like those tricks that don't quite fit in the add system. I know that I don't necessarily conform to only tricks that are documented on footbag.org. I like to be creative with tricks as well. Obviously you do that more so than me though. So I guess my opinion is: I, myself am not influenced by the add system too much with my game but I can see how a situation might come up where someone is.

You could go too far though. Some stylie tricks contain a lot of half dexes and experimental concepts that I do not like to see. Fun and eye-catching they may be, but this isn't juggling and we're not clowns. A solid all encompassing layer of by-laws needs to govern these trick so that it's not ONLY based on what looks cool. Otherwise the words sport and competition are further away than ever before.

I support your efforts to revamp ADDs but you;ve got you're work cut out for you, Matt.

Troyson · Post by **Troyson** » 14 Feb 2006 11:45

Being the relatively new footbagger that i am, it is easily seen that footbag as of now is very boring trick wise. Just from watching videos and seeing other people play, i realize that everyone uses the same old tricks over and over and it really pisses me off. I think that more people should start doing tricks that look cool and are fun to do, rather than add hunting.

As you can see from my Sick entries this month, i tried to be as creative as possible rather than doing the same old mundane tricks. When i shred, i try to incorporate as many ideas as i can into my runs. Sometimes i will do lap stalls, neck stalls, ass stalls, and i experiment with new ideas all the time. I really think that more people should start to do this.

A perfect example of how boring most shred is can be seen from almost every single player. ALL OF YOU PRIMARILY USE TOE AND CLIPPER TRICKS!!! I do not understand this at all, and it is really frustrating to watch. This is why i have been drilling my inside stalls like crazy, and i have vowed to myself that i will not learn any uptime sets until every trick i know with my toes i can also do on my insides. I really think that more players should do this, because it will be alot more fun to watch if people all have different styles and are all unique in different ways.

I do not see how people can object to diversifying their game. Alot of people are too worried about if what they do is really a trick, and not if it looks cool and is fun to do. Just from reading this ive seen people saying stuff like "doing tricks without a full dex" and crap like that....what i say is WHO CARES!? People think wayy too much about what they are doing and are limiting themselves to the same old crap.

i guess all i have to really say is...DIVERSIFY YOUR GAME....TRY NEW TRICKS, EXPERIMENT WITH NEW CONCEPTS!! Dont just limit yourself to the same old crap that we have been seeing over and over and over again from different people.

Asmus · Post by **Asmus** » 14 Feb 2006 11:54

Matt, i wonna give you so many props for bringing this up, it shows that you really wonna do something good for the sport even if that means your going to push somebodys feelings.
I love creative moves but I think one of things i love about them is that they are not worth adds. That show that you are using them for fun and style more than for the adds and it shows that you think that fun and style is just as important. I love when Jorden hits Janiwalk and Calf Roll in the same run.
Something about me, I try to put in some 3 and 4 add tricks in to my runs but just as much I try to incorporate creative moves and links. I have it the exactly same way with sick3's. Both creative and sick moves in a nice blend.
About style diversity.. I have chosen how I want my game to look, i chosen a bunch of concepts that i want to use. Double dexes, all kinds of spins, drifters, pixie, stepping and eclipse. This is what i work on, if other things comes along also, thats just great.

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 14 Feb 2006 13:03

Troyson wrote:A perfect example of how boring most shred is can be seen from almost every single player. ALL OF YOU PRIMARILY USE TOE AND CLIPPER TRICKS!!!

When i shred, i try to incorporate as many ideas as i can into my runs. Sometimes i will do lap stalls, neck stalls, ass stalls, and i experiment with new ideas all the time. I really think that more people should start to do this.

Yeah, I guess I come from a place where I did all the neck/face/back/lap stalls for a long time in hack. I really couldn't figure out how to do toe or clippers. Now, I appreciate the fact that I can do them. I think today's conventional textbook guiltless shred is beautiful to watch. Weird stuff is cool too. But by no means do I think the stuff being done now is boring. It's structured, but not boring.

Also Troy, I think that once you get an eye for calling tricks, you'll start to notice more variety in people's games. It all looks the same to everyone when starting out. But it's great to see someone hit a move, and say, "I hit that move too, cuz I followed the same path." I'm on a clipper/toe path right now. Anyone want to be on a dragon path, check out some of John Scheider's stuff. He's the man.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 14 Feb 2006 13:42

Damn matt, how come every thread you start degenerates to a bunch of off topic poo.

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 14 Feb 2006 14:24

Hmm, maybe you could steer the conversation back and offer an opinion of your own, instead of just saying it's poo.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 14 Feb 2006 14:57

Fine.

If you want to see more diversity in shred, we need to reward more diversity. Apparently ADDs are the only thing that motivate people to use concepts. We need to create new ADD categories to reward and acknowledge variations of tricks.

ADDs will never be a measurement of difficulty, they only are useful to show what compenents of a trick are being acknowledged, not how difficult the component is.

I bust tons of addless variations that never get used by anyone else, I'd wager a six pack if these variations received adds they would be in widespread use.

sampotter · Post by **sampotter** » 14 Feb 2006 17:05

I don't really understand why there needs to be much of a debate. As popular players start to popularize concepts, like Jorden, these concepts will begin to be done more. I know for certain that between when I began playing and now more people do wauxpins, dragons, rakes, tootsie rolls, favor dexless, or whatever. It isn't the majority, but shred is shred. I feel like people who try and bring these debates up every once in a while (Matt in this case) have sort of lost sight of the fact that we're still playing footbag. Like it or not, but a 20 contact shuffle string looks cool. Consecutive ripwalks look cool. PS Whirls back to back and long vanilla fearless runs. I'm sorry that you're bored with them but there's no reason for you to try and marginalize what people clearly DO like to do and watch. It's exhilirating hitting a good shred 30, even if it doesn't have a flying toe stall in it. Hitting a goal like... 20 tripless, or 10 fearless makes a player feel successful.

Footbag is Kenny Shultz and Rippin and what they devised. It's Peter, Vasek, Ryan, Jorden, and whoever else has helped keep the sport alive over these past years. I would really hate to see a new generation of shredders with their own dogmatic bull shit ingrained into them looking back and looking down on these people for not throwing rakes in or some trivial thing like that. There's a lot more to footbag than move selection.

Another point, one that is perhaps a little less abstracted and more to the point, is that the basis of shred as we have it is a good one. The different components people generally learn in their quest to be a strong shredder tend to set one up for being a strong and diverse player. Look at Allan. Allan in my opinion is where footbag should be headed (but my opinion here isn't worth a damn). He has a very strong base in all the different vanilla aspects of shred and beautifully incorporates all manner of stylee nuances and tricks. Varying arm positions for the same moves, different execution for the same moves, a vocabulary of funky tricks like his swivels and reversivals. I would love to see more people developing fluid styles with a strong mastery of a weird component. Jakob Wagner is another great example, same with Ricky Moran.

Just my thoughts.

max · Post by **max** » 15 Feb 2006 01:07

I have to agree with Matt Cross on this issue

For me sick trick means: something technically difficult that I've never (or rarely) seen. Sick Trick, and sick 3 to some extent, really is THE competition format where you can let go of the restrictive add system and really go for creativity. For me adds are of no value whatsoever in a sick 1. A swirling pdx mirage (4 adds) will place higher than a montage rake (8 adds) in my book.

Again this is just my opinion but I want to see those weird far symp reverse whirling gyro toes or symps swirling monster moves or whatever it is that someone came up with and that I haven't seen a thousand times already.

mc · Post by mc » 15 Feb 2006 07:34

Nagasake wrote:I don't really understand why there needs to be much of a debate.

there is no debate. I'm not trying to make the current concept of freestyle go away, I just think it should be embellished and opened up. You think opening up freestyle to more cool moves is a bad thing? I guess that would be a debate, but between you and me. not between me and everyone else.

As popular players start to popularize concepts, like Jorden, these concepts will begin to be done more. I know for certain that between when I began playing and now more people do wauxpins, dragons, rakes, tootsie rolls, favor dexless, or whatever. It isn't the majority, but shred is shred.

I agree, and setting an example is a great way to open up other people's minds and games, and I hope these players and others keep it up.

I feel like people who try and bring these debates up every once in a while (Matt in this case) have sort of lost sight of the fact that we're still playing footbag. Like it or not, but a 20 contact shuffle string looks cool. Consecutive ripwalks look cool. PS Whirls back to back and long vanilla fearless runs.

"like it or not"? do you think that I don't think shuffle or PS whirl look cool? Maybe you haven't seen any of my videos (which is fine), but I do both those things on a regular basis. You're really interpreting me wrong in this post. I just think that lots of people do shuffle and PS whirl, and that there's more to freestyle than what most people do with a footbag, so we should find ways to open our minds and our current system to encourage more diversity. I don't want to break down the monolith of freestyle and start over with a whole new weird, wacky world of hacky. I just think more should be included.

I'm sorry that you're bored with them but there's no reason for you to try and marginalize what people clearly DO like to do and watch. It's exhilirating hitting a good shred 30, even if it doesn't have a flying toe stall in it. Hitting a goal like... 20 tripless, or 10 fearless makes a player feel successful.

I agree with all these points except the one that says that I'm bored with freestyle as it is (PLEASE stop putting such presumptive statements into my mouth, I'm really getting annoyed). Also, "marginalize" is the exact opposite of what I want to do. I want to expand the perception of freestyle, not constrict it. Did you think about what I said at all before writing this post?

I think 10 fearless is cool and makes a player feel successful and looks AWESOME! I would just like to expand our definitions to include a little more into what fearless / tripless / etc, is. Once again, Diversity does not mean throwing everything out that's come so far, it just means opening up a little more (I can't believe how much I'm having to make this point with you. you really don't get it).

Footbag is Kenny Shultz and Rippin and what they devised. It's Peter, Vasek, Ryan, Jorden, and whoever else has helped keep the sport alive over these past years. I would really hate to see a new generation of shredders with their own dogmatic bull shit ingrained into them looking back and looking down on these people for not throwing rakes in or some trivial thing like that. There's a lot more to footbag than move selection.

man, when you start to say things like "dogmatic bullshit" and "looking down on these people [some of whom are my personal heros - mc] for not throwing rakes in", I'm starting to feel like you're putting a lot of words in my mouth and jumping to conclusions, and it pisses me off. What is dogmatic bullshit about saying "there's more to freestyle than what our scoring system recognizes, and people respond to the scoring system, so maybe we should open up the scoring system and our minds to some newer concepts to encompass more of what freestyle can be to encourage new moves, styles, and diversity"?

Also, you say there's a lot more to footbag than move selection... I'm not sure what you mean, care to go into detail on that point?

Another point, one that is perhaps a little less abstracted and more to the point, is that the basis of shred as we have it is a good one. The different components people generally learn in their quest to be a strong shredder tend to set one up for being a strong and diverse player. Look at Allan. Allan in my opinion is where footbag should be headed (but my opinion here isn't worth a damn). He has a very strong base in all the different vanilla aspects of shred and beautifully incorporates all manner of stylee nuances and tricks. Varying arm positions for the same moves, different execution for the same moves, a vocabulary of funky tricks like his swivels and reversivals. I would love to see more people developing fluid styles with a strong mastery of a weird component. Jakob Wagner is another great example, same with Ricky Moran.

Just my thoughts.

Yeah, I agree, it's not like there's no diversity and no unconventional freestyle going on. I just think it would be cool if it was more widespread.

Just because our current system has produced Jakob and Allan doesn't mean that it's perfect and we shouldn't consider changes. once again, **changes**, not total destruction and rebuilding and stomping on the faces of our forefathers.

You keep saying all these things that seem to be counterpoints to what I'm saying, but the fact is, I agree with most of what you've said except the parts that misinterpret what I've said or mispresume what I'm thinking.

Please respond.

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 15 Feb 2006 07:53

(Goddamn, don't make so long posts...)

Is old skool coming back? Like, what are we searching here? Something like shoulder-roll-to-between-calves is not todays footbag (no offence Jorden).

IMO Diverfisy in todays freestyle would be using other surfaces on FOOT - other than Clipper and Toe - NOT using surfaces of legs, that kills the flow. Inside, Outside, Flapper, Dragon, etc, that's what those "boring" clipper-toe runs need to get some color.

Flyers are cool too. Janiwalker > Pdx Dragonfly would be radical!