Achieving Guiltless

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 17 May 2006 16:36

In my quest for achieving guiltlessness, I've noticed it helps to prioritize your focus on certain moves over others. For example, skooling bubba set mirage would probably be a poor focus for someone who's just trying to achieve a strong BOP foundation for guiltless. However, today I came up with something that will improve my strings and help out with one of my worst moves, osis.

All it is is drilling osis>infinity, and trying to lead into strings with that combo. So far it's helped because it forces me to use osis as a setting move, and it's a great lead in to infinity which is a pretty easy bail for me. A lot of people have told me to keep drilling infinity, and trying to beat my consec record for that move, but really in practical shred am I ever going to do more than 1 or 2 in a row? See, it's super hard for me to do more than like 1 or 2, but instead of focusing so much on that, maybe draw my focus elsewhere, and back-burner that drill.

So, anyhow, any advice on drills and concepts to focus on for achieving guiltless would rock. Sorry for taking so long to explain this thread lol.

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 17 May 2006 16:46

Well, drills are very important. No, you're not going to be doing more than 1 or 2 midstring generally. But you want consistency, and that's where drills help. Also with string length. If you can only do 1 or 2 infinities in a row... and that's an easy bail... I would suggest you're not ready for guiltless yet. But I don't really know anything about your game.

I'm also currently going for guiltless, and I'm drilling osis > ss butterfly rpt, osis > whirl rpt, far osis > drifter rpt. Also ducking is great for guiltless, I think. And BOP's, of course.

Could you post some typical strings in a session?

edit: I'm only just going for guiltless now and my infinity record is 52... my osis record is 53... 36 contacts of butterfly > pdx mirage rpt. But hey, I might be being too cautious I dunno

brinard · Post by **brinard** » 17 May 2006 17:06

ive just recently becoming more and more guiltless. im not solid guiltless (mind you)

but when i want a guiltless session i can do it.

i find schooling certain sets like pixie, fairy important, along with ducking and osis. getting to those trick types midstring is what made me click. i drilled and drilled, but that never helped me. i had to bust it midstring.

i dotn have any mumbo jumbo drills i like, but i hit stritgs with eggbeater, dlo, plo, s.mirage, pdxmirage, pdx illusion, and lots of others...

SandWraith · Post by **SandWraith** » 17 May 2006 20:19

I think a lot of it depends on what people mean by "guiltless." I know I could technically say I've been guiltless for a while, but I can only do runs of like 8 to 10 moves of guiltless, and most of that isn't really genuine. I'm working tiltless till I can hit 40+ move runs, so I voted 2+ years, since I don't think I'm really guiltless now, or at least guiltless like I want to be.

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 17 May 2006 20:37

Yeah, I'm the same as Zach. I could have technically been guiltless a while ago. I think though, in the long run, you're better off going tiltless for longing, improving your string length and variety/consistency so that when you go guiltless it's not like whirl > bops > bops > bops > dlo > bops.

I just played guiltless for about 20 minutes, easily got 10-15 contact strings about half genuine. Yeah I probably should have gone guiltless earlier... hehe.

I vote 1 and a half years.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 17 May 2006 22:33

I just decided to go guiltless one day and stopped doing bops. I think it took about a year and a half but I was only tiltless for about 3 months - ie. I went from having toe stalls in my game to being guiltless very quickly. This is primarily because I played entirely by myself until I went tiltless and I really had no idea that guiltless etc. existed. Then I got to play with other people and learnt about tiltless, guiltless etc. So I was probably capable of being tiltless a lot earlier if I had have tried.

hackeysnacker · Post by **hackeysnacker** » 18 May 2006 11:44

I never quite understand what people mean by "genuine" guiltless - is it restricting the BOP's to a minimum for more varied/double dex tricks or what?

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 18 May 2006 13:17

Off-topic, but can anyone clarify BOP?

HG · Post by HG » 18 May 2006 13:58

BOP= butterfly, osis, paradox mirage

Genuine guiltless= guiltless without BOPs

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 18 May 2006 14:07

Off-topic, but can anyone clarify BOP?

Not really off topic.

BOP = Butterfly Osis Paradox Mirage

Its a little hard to remember now, but I'm fairly sure my answer would have to be "2+Years"

I think a lot of it depends on what people mean by "guiltless."

Yeah, I mean, I've been shredding guiltless for the better part of a decade now, but I still spend plenty of time doing 2 ADD tricks, and even 1 ADDs (and I don't even mean only weird 1s and 2s,).

Shredzilla, yeah, combos of osis > infinity are key. That combo has always been the core of my guiltless game. I've noticed two broad categories: people who's game is based on osis > butterfly, and peole who's game is based on butterfly > paradox mirage. Some people just don't really like toes, and some people never get to liking osis.

Of course you can always do things like osis > butterfly > paradox mirage > rpt. Its a good drill.

Another drill I've always liked is osis > butterfly > (insert guiltless clipper trick [like spinning clipper] here) > osis > butterfly > (another guiltess clipper trick [like whirl] here) > osis > butterfly > etc.
The idea for me was that the osis > butterfly part was reliable enough that I'd try a trick that might be a little tough for me, and then bail to osis > infinity > and then try that same trick again. Thats how I liked to skool spinning clippers, for instance, and when you hit the spinning clipper, or the whirl, or the whirling swirl, or whatever, you just bail to osis > infinity again to get your balance back and set up for another try.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 18 May 2006 21:58

yeah good tips from Jon. My game is definitely based around butterfly>pdx mirage but I am slowly getting better at osis (I hit it midstring in one of the runs on the last video of me

). I think drilling really helps going guiltless - or improving your game to any level I guess and the style of doing some easy moves to a hard move to some easy moves is really good I think for being able to get good at those moves and improving your run length. For example lately I've been drilling fairy sets heaps and so drills I've been working on are stuff like - fear>dimwalk>pdx mirage - repeat. Which is something that I know I can hit but allows me to really focus on getting a good straight fairy set out of the pdx mirage. I know I can hit harder drills like flog>fairy ss dlo repeat (have hit the first 3 contacts anyway) but I think it's less efficiant to work on that until I can hit fairy sets with more control and consistancy.

sNale · Post by **sNale** » 19 May 2006 06:03

I also think that you shouldn't neglect basic (guiltless or tiltless) drills! And drilling Infinities is always a good thing, regardless of how annoying it can be. I went through all this

and was frustrated a lot, but I kept schooling all my basics and now I consider my self really a guiltless player. Sure my game still lacks some components but I'm quite happy with what I achived. IMHO the steps to guiltlessness

are:

1. Have ALL your basics down (2 adds), so be sure that you can do every 2 add trick out of every other. (e.g. clipper set illusion > atw > legover > ss clipper) Practice them till you can do 25+ contact runs

2. Learn and drill Butterfly (Infinities and ss) and Osis till you feel really comfortable with them. (Sometimes I have more fun with just being in a flow with bop's, than trying to bust genuine 3 and 4 adds

)

3.1. Learn all those nice and awesome 3 add tricks out there: Eggbeater, Drifter, DLO, Whirl, rev. Whirl, Ducking, Diving, Swirl... and and and
3.2 Learn all those cool sets: Pixie, Fairy, Stepping, Atomic, Nuclear...

(I know the not everyone, expect people like Honza or Jordan, will have all those tricks down so fast, but you will learn them later on)

4. Now and thats was is imo very important (and that is were my game is right now). Not just hit a new trick, work on it till you have it down in all its variations! Setting from Clipper and Toe, playing in and out of every move and connect with a set (e.g. clipper set dlo > pixie butterfly...)

For every new trick (also for higher add tricks) you have to go back to step 4

That's how I see and play Footbag. Hope you like this list.

sidekick · Post by **sidekick** » 19 May 2006 06:15

For the longest time I could do about 5 contacts guiltless, then I'd throw a pickup... I think the biggest thing for me was learning some good 3 add downtime moves that I could bail to. Exapmle: if I couldn't do a fairy set (or if I couldn't think of a 3 add to do) I'd hit pickp as a bail. After I thought about it, I found some bails that were 3 adds. If I couldn't hit a stepping set, I'd do a DLO or a barrage or a pdx mirage instead.

Of, since I just started doing longer tripless strings, I've found bails that are 4 adds. Such as ducking/spinning butterfly. I use that move a lot b/c 1) it's not all that hard after lots of drilling, 2) I can step out of it (which is very good for tripless) and 3) it takes almost no energy to do them anymore, so my strings can go on longer.

I guess what I'm tring to say is, for me, going to the next level of shred (weather it's guiltless, or more recently tripless, and in the future, fearless) is all about finding the easy moves to bail to that would allow me to reset me body, and continue the string.

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 19 May 2006 07:29

sNale wrote: (Sometimes I have more fun with just being in a flow with bop's, than trying to bust genuine 3 and 4 adds )

I'm glad I'm not the only one!

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 19 May 2006 07:29

I think I could have gone guiltless in under 2 years, certianly if I kept improving the rate I was when I started.

There have been times when I have gotten twice as good in a month and other times when I have gone for several months and learned almost nothing, in some cases losing some parts of my game (this is happening now), I blame university for this. DAMN YOU UNIVERSITY!

This strange progression coupled with the fact that for about a year I neglected osis and butterfly and whirl completely, ment that I am only just playing guiltless these last few months (i've been playing a bit over 2 years now). So for me, unfortunatly, over 2 years.

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 19 May 2006 17:39

Wow this has been a surprsingly informative thread

First off, 81% of the people polled have taken over a year to become guiltless. That should make sense to me, but it's a little surprising. I tried to model my game after people like Nate Linscott who says it took him about a year.

Well, it's been pretty much a year, and early June will be exactly a year when I first started with lavers. To give myself some credit, I probably didn't drill or play as hard in the early months as I did later on, but I'm sure most people are like this. I set a goal to achieve guiltless before my one-year mark, but it turned out to be somewhat unrealistic. Sure, I probably could have pounded it out 4 hours a day for months on end and probably made it, but it may have taken some of the fun out of it.

Secondly, this thread has already helped my game. Yesterday I had an awesome session because I took the focus away from guiltless. For the first hour I drilled all tiltless, and didn't even think about putting a 3 in there. I did great! I had a lot of long strings of 15+ contacts, where my previous record was 11 or 12. After doing that for a while, I went to my osis>infinity drill and that went okay as well. But I guess what I really got out of this lesson is:

1. The priority right now is to hit 30 contacts tiltless. That should be my goal. There's no point in trying to go guiltless if I can't have long tiltless runs on command.

2. Work on small guiltless concepts SEPARATELY. ie. two move combos such as osis>infinity and whirl>osis. Strengthening those concepts and getting them reliable will help when I'm ready to go for long guiltless runs.

Thanks for all the help, and feel free to post more great advice guys!

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 19 May 2006 22:15

I think the best way to go about getting guiltless is:

1. Learn all important 2adds (clipper, in/out atw, mirage, illusion, pickup, legover).
> Be sure to learn the both sides.
> Learn each from clipper and toe.
> Learn all of them same side and op (from toe), far and near (from clip).
This will give you about 20 unique tiltless moves than you can do both sides.
Also learn butterfly, osis and pdx mirage.

2. School each of the moves you have learned till you can do 10-20 consecutive/alternating.
Make sure you can string all of them consistnatly and your average string length is over 20 contacts.

3. Begin to learn guiltless concepts and sets. Good ones to start with are:
Pixie, fairy, stepping, spinning, atomic.
Whirl, dlo, drifter, symp mirage, ducking clip.

4. Make drilling combos for all guiltless moves you have learned (eg. whirl > ducking clip rpt, osis > infinity > blurry clip rpt, butterfly > pdx mirage rpt, dlo > plo rpt, ducking clip > spinning clip rpt etc etc)
Learn each of your basic guiltless drills till you can do over 10 contacts easily.

5. Stop doing 2add moves in your strings.

For me, my major guiltless drill recently has been osis > infinity > ducking clip rpt. It's very good

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 19 May 2006 22:26

You are a smart dude, listen to your body, and have fun. Guiltless is a bit silly when looked at from a certain perspective. You have the passion dude, you will shred for as long and as hard as you shred smart.

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 20 May 2006 14:21

why play guiltless ..... ? Do what you feel like doing, never sucumb to the pressure to play only guiltless. I'd rather see guays and ducking/spinning toes than butter>butter>osis>butter>butter>osis. I will never play only guiltless ever.

I do think I am the only one.

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 20 May 2006 18:48

habitat wrote:why play guiltless ..... ?

Because I want to, and because I think it looks cooler than tiltless

.

You bring up a very good point James, and for many people it's true, but for me, playing tiltless just isn't as enjoyable and doesn't look at cool as playing guiltless.

I have been corrupted by the add system, I think spinning/ducking toes and guays look lame and that opinion may have been influenced by the fact they are only 2adds. The only cool 2add move I can think of is bubba, which I will continue to do.

I know many people believe we should play for our own enjoyment and not to impress others, but part of the reason I play is definatly to impress others, and in my opinion someone shreding guiltless is much more impressive than that same person shreding tiltless, provided they are at a guiltless level.

Ofcourse I don't mind how anyone else wants to play, if they want to get their groove on to the beat and play tiltless then that's great, but for me, if I tilt then I pass the bag.

modified

Achieving Guiltless

How long did it take you to achieve Guiltless?

Achieving Guiltless