Thread vs. Floss

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 17 Jun 2006 21:02

The debate of thread vs. floss is interesting to me. People may not realize this, but they make for completely different bags.

While there is no debate over which is stronger, floss wins that battle hands down, thread is a very viable option in regards to bag playability.

Floss is very commonly used in stitching currently. It is very strong. However, there in lies it's 'weakness'. Because of the way it behaves, it forms a wiry cage within and around the bag. Floss also doesn't break in, so the bag will always have a quality of being able to be molded with your hand, like clay. A good illustration of this is when you're kicking a floss bag and it turns flat like a pancake, but stays that way, and doesn't return to a round shape in the air. Facile is very pliable fabric. But, because of this wiry cage, the bag doesn't expand and collapse in the air and on your foot the way it should.

There are two types of thread that are used for stitching footbags. Button thread made from cotton and polyester, and the more durable Nylon Upholstery thread. Button thread is a good choice for stitching. It's pliable, and it gives and breaks in, because in essence, it IS fabric. Thus, it will behave similar to the rest of the material of the bag. It's flexible and soft, so it won't prohibit the bag from expanding and collapsing. It is pretty strong. Not nearly as strong as floss, and you couldn't hang a truck by it, but it's strong enough to not break within your bag. However, like facile, different colors of button thread behave differently, and are stronger than others. The pure white color is what i use, and have found it to be the strongest of the colors I've used so far.

Nylon Upholstery thread is very strong. It will not break no matter what. However, it's somewhat difficult to stitch with. For one, it frays very easily. Two, it's slippery and stretchy so it's difficult to maintain knot strength. Knots wil often unravel by themselves. Lonn Irish used Upholstery thread in her bags, and the way she got around the poor knot factor was an elaborate method of using ends of strings to tie second knots around others in the bag. I was actually kind of shocked to see this when I opened the bag because it seems like that would take forever.

At first I was dead-set against Upholstery thread for the weakness I've mentioned. Dave Clavens made a bag recently from it, and I had to fix two panels because of slippery knots. But, the bag had a quality a LOT like Lonn's bags. Puffy panels, and an expandability that you don't see in a lot of bags except Lonn bags. If I can find a method to secure those knots, I'm seriously considering going to Nylon. It's good qualities make for superior bags. A fully broken in nylon-stitched bag will expand a LOT in the air, because the thread itself is stretchy. When a bag expands in the air, it floats more and gives you a lot of extra dexing time. Switching from a regular bag to a lonn, you'll instantly see how you complete a dex and have tons of time to do other stuff. It's pretty cool.

Anyway, I'm always trying to refine my stitching style and I think that it's an under-appreciated science. Making a bag is easy. But making a GOOD bag can be pretty challenging. Thanks for indulging, and feel free to post your thoughts.

Zeb Jackson · Post by **Zeb Jackson** » 17 Jun 2006 21:31

i usually try to use a good thick nylon thread, because for me it has worked the best, i find that floss stretches allowing for stitches to show but thats imo

zeroman13 · Post by **zeroman13** » 17 Jun 2006 22:14

I use upholstery thread and it works great! I do have that same problem with the knots, but I quadruple knot it anyway.

Guest_2 · Post by **Guest_2** » 18 Jun 2006 00:59

Upholstery thread all the way-but it's nearly impossible to get the knots secure. I tie them together

kehern15 · Post by **kehern15** » 18 Jun 2006 06:50

I also use upholstery thread, but I always use double thread. When using double thread, it is extremely easy to make knots, and they stay nicely.

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 18 Jun 2006 07:21

kehern15 wrote:When using double thread, it is extremely easy to make knots, and they stay nicely.

Can you elaborate on your technique?

Roy · Post by **Roy** » 18 Jun 2006 09:12

I use nylon upholstry thread. I have had problems with the end of knots fraying, but I put enough knots that it shouldn't un-knot a knot.
At one point I tied the knots together, but it was alot of work, took alot of time, and wasted thread. It wasted thread because I had to leave more thread before and after you stitch and knot a pent. Then tie the knots together, then cut the extra thread. If I didn't leave more I didn't have enough thread to tie a knot.

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 18 Jun 2006 11:35

Although I would like to comment and share on Lonn Irish's use of upholstery thread and unique stitching technique on this topic, I'll digress from that. However, I have to add that it's not only this stitching technique and her use of thread that makes for a good bag, but also her unique and direct needle placement. I've just recently repaired a Lonn bag, and will be doing so with two more, and I have to say her needle placement really affects how her bags are made and played. It definitely takes down a lot of today's modern approaches on template sizes and needle stabbing.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I wanted to make a clear point about Lonn bags. I will be on-topic with the issue at hand, though: I personally use floss for my bags, because it's cheap and abundant from where I shop. I've used button thread before, and it does make for a good thread on bags, but I think it's somewhat constrictive whenever I use it. I say this because compared to floss, button thread feels much more secure within gathered pents that it doesn't allow for much freedom in the stitches. I personally think that dental floss has a way of stretching when it comes to break-in and is good to use for much more delicate facile like printed colors. It's because floss is basically small fibers of nylon placed together by wax, and also when used for stitching it has less compounds of these fibers when compared to button or upholstery thread which is built around a double-helix. And in the case of these "double-helixes," break-in longevity is much more abundant in those threads than floss is. Therefore, floss pretty much gives some freedom for the facile to move around and breathe in during early and even late break-in, as the fabric has ways of moving around. That is not to say if you use a really tight gather, however.

Chris, my analysis on why you think some bags turn almost "pancake" when it comes to break-in is not directly due to floss, really. I think other factors come into play, like filler, needle placement, use of gather. I know thread is not the whole issue, but I haven't yet found that dental floss is really a factor in making bags pancake just yet.

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 18 Jun 2006 12:05

Wasabi wrote:I personally use floss for my bags, because it's cheap and abundant from where I shop.

Thread is cheaper than most of the floss I've seen. it's like 79 cents for button thread, and I think like 99 cents or a little more for Nylon.

Wasabi wrote:Chris, my analysis on why you think some bags turn almost "pancake" when it comes to break-in is not directly due to floss, really. I think other factors come into play, like filler, needle placement, use of gather. I know thread is not the whole issue, but I haven't yet found that dental floss is really a factor in making bags pancake just yet.

We can disagree on this until I recieve/play with a floss 32 panel bag that doesn't pancake. Furthermore, if they DON'T pancake, they usually don't break in at all.

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 18 Jun 2006 12:23

shredzilla wrote:Furthermore, if they DON'T pancake, they usually don't break in at all.

Those are two different claims on the use of floss. How can you say that a bag made with floss will turn pancake, but bags that don't pancake don't break-in at all? Of course, as I said before, the influence on how some bags turn "pancake" and some don't come from other factors that don't directly concern floss. Different stitching styles and equipment, even different colors of facile, used on bags always bring different break-in rates. I just don't understand what you're making as a conclusion, Chris.

Not to sound like a jackass, but I'm trying, and like to, further discuss about the differences being expanded here.

kehern15 · Post by **kehern15** » 18 Jun 2006 13:02

shredzilla wrote:
kehern15 wrote:When using double thread, it is extremely easy to make knots, and they stay nicely.
Can you elaborate on your technique?

Sure, no problem. I learned to stitch using single and doublw thread. I have always found that using double thread was easier and stronger. Here is how I start/finish my pents. (I'm not going to sew a full pent)

The things that I am using: Upholstery thread, needle, and some cheap microsuede.

Here you can see how the needle is threaded, it is actually one piece of thread that has been folded in half, and then put through the eye of the needle. NOTE, the folded part of the thread MUST be longer than the two loose ends, as seen in the picture.

This is kinda hard to explain, but I will try my best. Basicly, you do a normal stitch, but dont pull the thread tight, let the loop hang loose. Then come back through the cloth and put your needle though the thread, and pull tight.

After that, just stitch normally, and gather.

Ending is very similar to starting, just grab some cloth to form that loop again, and put your needle through and pull tight.

I do that three times, and then I am done!

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 18 Jun 2006 18:15

Hey, thanks for the demo kehern.

Wasabi wrote:I just don't understand what you're making as a conclusion, Chris.

Not to sound like a jackass, but I'm trying, and like to, further discuss about the differences being expanded here.

Nah, it's cool. I was just saying that I did recieve one floss bag that didnt't pancake. But that bag never broke in. Idk, that type of bag I'm sure is playable for some people. Heck, I can play with it. I'd just rather have movement to my bag.

These bags I've seen with floss end up becoming more of a ball than a bag. I want the bag to expand and contract, collapse on my foot, then expand in the air. I want the fill to move a little within the bag, not stay as a solid clump. That's an issue for a different thread regarding filler, but I'm just giving my opinion on what I like in a bag. Floss isn't the only thing that contributes to poor bag performance, but it plays a major factor IMO.

brinard · Post by **brinard** » 18 Jun 2006 20:38

i use floss. i use it cause i wanted a more squishy feeling bag, from the start of breakin to the finish. plus its way easier to get.
my securing method is triple knot, then melt.

out of the bags i have made, and others ive recieved i find floss reacts very differently from nylon made bags.

and i like floss's reactions better, based on playablility.

also, the only thread ive seen and used 1 time was nylon upholstry thread. i didnt like it, or the bag. too stiff. knots came undone. too much trouble for me.

kehern15 · Post by **kehern15** » 19 Jun 2006 08:14

So, am I the only one who uses double upholstery thread? I used normal all purpose thread on my first bag, but when I moved to using facile, I felt that all purpose therad was too weak. I am thinking about trying to use floss, I will get some today. What kind of needle is used while sewing with floss? Is it a glover's needle? How exactly is foss melted?

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 19 Jun 2006 08:21

kehern15 wrote:So, am I the only one who uses double upholstery thread? I used normal all purpose thread on my first bag, but when I moved to using facile, I felt that all purpose therad was too weak.

All-Purpose thread is extremely weak, and is different from button thread. I've never used this for a bag.

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 19 Jun 2006 08:25

kehern15 wrote:What kind of needle is used while sewing with floss? Is it a glover's needle? How exactly is foss melted?

Most stitchers today use Glover's needles to stitch bags, regardless of what thread to use. To melt floss, just use a lighter and dip the ends of the thread (whether you knot it or not) under the flame, where it is blue, to slowly melt the fibers together into a small bulb.

brinard · Post by **brinard** » 19 Jun 2006 08:53

no, if you do it that way like waylon said, your "bulb" will break and your pent will come undone. (or thats what always happens when i dont knot and just melt.)

you have to knot the string ( i do it a triple knot) and then put the tips of your string in the flame of a lighter.

blow out the strings cause they will probably catch fire, and then pinch the two strings together, leaving a thumb print style mold which wont break and wont come undone. i do it about a quarter inch away from my knots, and they have only come undone 1 time in 30 bags. thats cause a noob harshly treated the bag.

i also do this on my blind stitch, so it will not come undone, but i do it less, so the mold isnt too big to push back inside the finished footbag.

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 19 Jun 2006 10:15

I usually burn it into a huge bulb, and have not yet found any problems with my method, Brian. There's also a lot of stitchers that use this method, but with different types of anchors. Maybe the way you anchor your bags, along with other factors, cause a lot of pressure on the thread on those points and have thus caused the bulb to break? Or is the floss worn out to the point that the fibers are exposed? To get a proper and stable bulb, fresh floss would be needed imho.

The only way I would knot and then burn a bulb when lacing my thread onto my needle is when the thread has become too broken in for me to use. That's when the wax is wiped away from too much stabbing and the thread is stretched out from overuse. It's only then when a proper bulb can't be made, and will be much more likely to break when either anchoring or finishing up the pent. Personally, I think using too many knots makes for an irregular feeling bag. The most I do is two knots, and that's when I finish the pent.

brinard · Post by **brinard** » 19 Jun 2006 10:23

i didnt mean your way wouldnt work. sorry for being an ass.

anyways, ill make a bag your way soon to see the results.

does anyone know what some pros use for thread?

i remember kfm stitchers use floss... but what about footfighter? and abshire?

im just curious.

and how deep does everyone stitch?

i usually stick to 1/8'' from edge.im now expierementing with this too...

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 19 Jun 2006 12:21

Yeah, it'd be interesting to know. I played with an Abshire a few weeks ago, and same result. The bag would flatten out, and stay flat in the air and on your foot, chunky and like a solid object instead of a bag.

True test: Take your bag made from floss or thread. Squeeze it in your hand. If when you release your hand, the bag stays the shape you squeezed it into, it will offer mediocre performance.

That is a horrible quality for a bag. You want it to be able to move freely, and react with your movements, not stay some molded shape.

modified

Thread vs. Floss

Which do you use?

Thread vs. Floss