Few different methods of going guiltless

HG · Post by HG » 18 Jun 2006 15:29

I was just thinking, while watching Jamieson's new video, that there are 2 different ways of going guiltless that i can think of.

The first one, which is what i did. Is going guiltless AS SOON as you are capable. For me, this meant tons of bops with a few different genuine moves scattered in. It just sort of happened one day, when i was shredding with Ted. Towards the end of the session, i realized i hadnt guilted once. From then on i have been going guiltless.

Now for jamieson, just as an example, he was probably capable of going guiltless months ago. But he chose not to be, and just do loooong tiltless runs, but with lots of variety, with 4's and 5's thrown in. in his vampires video i would say his run length was consistently 15-20+! Now in his newer video, he is guiltless, and obviously the runs will be shorter.

I am just curious, which method do you think works the best? If you asked me before i was guiltless, i would say jamieson's. But i am not sure now. Because the way i did it worked for me. Maybe if i did it the other way i might be better?

sampotter · Post by **sampotter** » 18 Jun 2006 18:31

I think approaching the game with the goal of becoming guiltless in mind is very detrimental. It makes it very easy to not spend enough time on all the easy stuff there is to learn in the game that, when combined, make guiltless play stronger and more relaxed. There is no such thing as going guiltless too late in your game. The more natural the progression, the better. I still school my 2-adds and my easy stuff just to keep my confidence and comfort with the bag up.

Anyway, that aside, I think that Jamieson's method is probably better. I approached guiltlessness like you did, and I had to go back later and fix a lot of style problems and work easier tricks to make things more flowing. Sure, I could bust pretty phat guiltless runs, but they were always daunting. Look at players like Ilja and Renato on the video of Euros from a few years back. They were tearing it up, but were guilting. A lot of people gave them shit for this (Euroing... right). Well, look at them now.

Obviously, though, whatever is the most comfortable style for you is probably what you should stick with.

Shredinger Z · Post by **Shredinger Z** » 19 Jun 2006 09:08

HenryG wrote:I was just thinking, while watching Jamieson's new video, that there are 2 different ways of going guiltless that i can think of.

What does it mean "guiltless"????

Paul Agostinelli · Post by **Paul Agostinelli** » 19 Jun 2006 09:19

it means playing at a level where your strings never have tricks less than 3 adds.

in a lot of peoples opinions its the first big milestone to becoming a good player. to me, that was tiltless (nothing less than 2 add moves) even though i now play guiltless.

i jumped to guiltless when it felt more comfortable than playing tiltless. when i could string all of my normal 2 add moves twice through consistantly without dropping, by that time i had my bops down solid, and i had a slew of 3 and 4 add tricks and guiltless all of a sudden made sense to my mind and my body, and now, it just flows really well.

my take on it is, dont rush it, make sure your tiltless game is the ubersolid, and if you have to do more than 3 or 4 bops in a row all the time to string guiltless, then you arent ready yet.

~NEL~

edit: one more thing, even though ive gone guiltless, there are a number of two add moves that i use in my strings because they are stylish. just because someone is guiltless, they should never limit themselves from doing stylish or cool tricks because they are 2 (or 1) adds.

Shredinger Z · Post by **Shredinger Z** » 19 Jun 2006 09:34

Thanks!!

Now I have understood the topic...

Well.. I don't know which is the best way.. I started playing 8 months ago and I'm not even tiltless.. because I still doing some toe<op toe sometimes... But in my way of understand footbag I would prefer the second way..
First, run until you can do it as if you have your eyes closed and then.. close them!!!

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 19 Jun 2006 15:42

Paul Agostinelli wrote:it means playing at a level where your strings never have tricks less than 3 adds.

in a lot of peoples opinions its the first big milestone to becoming a good player. to me, that was tiltless (nothing less than 2 add moves) even though i now play guiltless.

i jumped to guiltless when it felt more comfortable than playing tiltless. when i could string all of my normal 2 add moves twice through consistantly without dropping, by that time i had my bops down solid, and i had a slew of 3 and 4 add tricks and guiltless all of a sudden made sense to my mind and my body, and now, it just flows really well.

my take on it is, dont rush it, make sure your tiltless game is the ubersolid, and if you have to do more than 3 or 4 bops in a row all the time to string guiltless, then you arent ready yet.

~NEL~

edit: one more thing, even though ive gone guiltless, there are a number of two add moves that i use in my strings because they are stylish. just because someone is guiltless, they should never limit themselves from doing stylish or cool tricks because they are 2 (or 1) adds.

Amen! It was definately a conscious decision not to go guiltless when it would be mostly BOP's. I probably should BOP a little more at the moment cause my string length is fairly low... But I agree with the sentiment of not going guiltless as soon as you can, I think you get a better foundation this way. I also agree with doing stylish 2 adds, like bubba

SandWraith · Post by **SandWraith** » 19 Jun 2006 17:40

I agree with the second way as well. Though I'm not really guiltless at the moment, I had considered going trying it with the "I can only do BOPs" approach and decided it just wouldn't be very fun. I think it's important to give yourself a chance to develop a style and a feel for the bag; trying to get guiltless right away would tend towards stunting that growth.

beenjammin · Post by **beenjammin** » 22 Jun 2006 08:26

I'm so tired of seeing bop's these days. When i saw this thread the different ways of guilting i thought of were of course the bop method, then i thought the spinning and ducking way with the occasional dex, going genuine (no bop's), and maybe toe shuffle. but obviously this is the wrong thing. There are alot of three adds out there. Ducking and diving dexes are the best. Then you got your spinning and gyro tricks. Did you know atom smasher is only three adds! WHen you think guiltless just realize that there more than bop, whirl, and the other common guiltless tricks that are way overused.

sampotter · Post by **sampotter** » 22 Jun 2006 08:54

Ben -

The problem with this is that genuine play follows BOP. BOP is the guiltless standard as all of the tricks are harder than tiltless tricks, even if they're boring. Being able to bust a long string of BOP with good style and form is sooo fundamental in being able to go genuine. The pivoting, form, clipper and arm positioning, breathingg... Much more important than not looking boring. Don't rush yourself.

bluntobj3ct · Post by **bluntobj3ct** » 22 Jun 2006 14:08

word sam.

ive recently hit the BOP w/ 4s and 5s as my runs stage, and honestly i couldnt be happier.

i know i have many many 3s to be working on before im really guiltless, but throwing strings like dimwalk> Pdx mirage >rpt X10 have really helped with, like what sam was saying up there, pivoting and clipper set positions and cross body sets etc.

although ive been hitting new 5s every other day, i try and remember to keep workin my flip whirls and drifters

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 22 Jun 2006 15:36

BOPs aren't boring, for the record. People are such haters.

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 22 Jun 2006 16:14

Nagasake wrote:Ben -

The problem with this is that genuine play follows BOP. BOP is the guiltless standard as all of the tricks are harder than tiltless tricks, even if they're boring. Being able to bust a long string of BOP with good style and form is sooo fundamental in being able to go genuine. The pivoting, form, clipper and arm positioning, breathingg... Much more important than not looking boring. Don't rush yourself.

Very well put.

Ben, the reason people use the 3add's that they do, is because they are the easiest. What do you expect? No one's going to bust hard guiltless strings off the bat, everyone has to start with mainly BOP's and work their way up. Although it may be a little boring to have mostly BOP's, they're giving themselves a good foundation. Atomsmasher is 4 adds with xdex... but besides that it's very high energy. I can't see myself busting it midstring now too often, it's too difficult/energy consuming and it will defin ately shorten my runs. Ducking and spinning are good additions.

Going genuine is definately not the way to go guiltless

Although BOP's don't bore me if there's a decent mix of other tricks in there. Especially if it's all done with good form.

RawSko · Post by **RawSko** » 24 Jun 2006 17:59

Jorden Moir told me baybe steps. ...that's how I am approching guitlessnes.

beenjammin · Post by **beenjammin** » 25 Jun 2006 09:20

I wasnt saying that hard tricks are better than bop it's just that sometimes that is all you will see is bop because for some reason someone picked these three tricks as the base guiltless tricks. I use ALOT of bop's but i dont use solely bop like ive seen so many people do. All im sayin is when guilting i prefer to have tons of variety and not just do the same combos over and over.

Paul Agostinelli · Post by **Paul Agostinelli** » 25 Jun 2006 15:16

blurryben wrote:I wasnt saying that hard tricks are better than bop it's just that sometimes that is all you will see is bop because for some reason someone picked these three tricks as the base guiltless tricks. I use ALOT of bop's but i dont use solely bop like ive seen so many people do. All im sayin is when guilting i prefer to have tons of variety and not just do the same combos over and over.

no one picked these tricks and decided they would become the base guiltless tricks, they just are because they are the easiest (this is relative i know, some people can easily hit 5 toe guiltless and can rarely hit osis>osis) pdx illusion could definately replace pdx mirage in the bop category if its easier, but i cant really think of anything replacing butterfly or osis as the "easiest" guiltless tricks.

My point about guiltless is that your strings should be varied, if you're hitting 4 bops>genuine trick>4 bops>rpt. some of those bops should be 2 adds.

i would much rather see

pdx mirage>smear>ATW>pixie clipper>same butterfly>infinity>spinning clipper>bubba>etc..

than

butterfly>pdx mirage>butterfly>osis>ducking clipper>infinity>pdx drifter> etc...

the first style is way cooler than the second to me because though there are two add tricks, there is less repetition.

basically unless you're setting up for something huge, i'd rather see a stylish 2 add than 3 bops in a row, period.

~NEL~

polar_bear · Post by **polar_bear** » 27 Jun 2006 10:41

bopping is fun! i think that it helps build long, guiltless runs. if anyone thinks that my play is boring, they can close their eyes. you can't fade a star, playa!

Troyson · Post by **Troyson** » 27 Jun 2006 21:36

i am currently trying to approach guiltless by using the dwr method of becoming guiltless....drifter-whirl-xbd rake

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 27 Jun 2006 22:25

Idk, my method is learning and mastering all the basic 3s, and attempting 4s here and there. Plus, learning key concepts like stepping and pixie. If you can hit all the basic 3s mid-string, bop as long as you want, and some cool 4s, you're guiltless. Also I guess a guiltlless contact count of 15+ wouldn't hurt. I'm pretty close, but not there just quite yet.

Paul Agostinelli · Post by **Paul Agostinelli** » 30 Jun 2006 07:52

i just think variety is more fun, id rather do a 15 contact tiltless string than 10 bops in a row, currently, in circles and im guiltless

~NEL~

edit: 600 posts bitches!

modified

Few different methods of going guiltless

Few different methods of going guiltless

Re: Few different methods of going guiltless