Thread vs. Floss

[kehern15]

True test: Take your bag made from floss or thread. Squeeze it in your hand. If when you release your hand, the bag stays the shape you squeezed it into, it will offer mediocre performance.

That is a horrible quality for a bag. You want it to be able to move freely, and react with your movements, not stay some molded shape.

In that case, my double thread bag is just fine.

[mosher]

Chris, each post you make in this thread just makes it clearer and clearer you don't really truely understand what you are talking about.

I don't get why you are working so hard to dismiss floss as a viable option. I like working with floss, I like my bags better than any other stitchers bags so obviously I am doing *something* right. I havn't tried making bags with thread, but that's mostly due to my inclination away from using any knots in my bags.

[shredzilla]

Thanks for responding to this thread Tom. I honestly appreciate your input as a major stitcher in the modified community. I based my stitching philosophies around a model that I found last summer in Lonn Irish's bags. I decided along with others beside me that her bags were the best of any stitcher around during the time. Therefore, I tried to emulate what she was doing during her time as a major footbag stitcher.

To be completely frank, I think that floss produces inferior bags. I have assimilated this myself, and I have heard others talk about the bags that are made from floss.

Contrary to some belief, I am not in competition with you, rather I would like you to make bags thath are optimal for footbaggers. I hold true to the belief that the properties of floss force it to be a mediocre option when selecting threads to use. The bags I have recieved that are floss-made have proven to be 'moldy'. By that I mean they form solid objects of moldable parts instead of being bags of many parts that react to footbag performance.

I understand that you have been using floss for quite sometiime, and this thread may come as a shock to you and others using floss, but it is based on my own experience compounded with other buyers and stitchers within the community.

Lonn Irish, proclaimed as one of, if not the best stitcher to be involved with footbag used upholstery thread. Her bags maintained a quality far superior to most bags in the game. Many will testify to this.

I have followed her examples, and tested methods of other stitchers to come up with what I feel is a superior formula for footbag stitching.

Obviously you and others may still hold onto the floss method. I will not fault you for this. But, I will show you, over time, that my bags, made with thread, will out-perform any bags made of floss. Not because you are the ones making them, but because the properties of floss don't allow a footbag to expand and collapse the way a professional-grade footbag should.

-Chris Miller

[brinard]

i dont believe floss is a problematic thread.

i think the stitching method, facile used and grade of floss also determine the performance of a bag. that use of floss alone cannot degrade a bag as such "inferior" specimen for performance


my bags use floss, but i like them better than any pro bag ive got... so far...
they pancake on your foot, but once set again, re-inflate. they dont do that when first made, cause my filler is dense, and i like bags emptyish. my gather is usually medium, which may also be a problem for your mold test.

the only bags i own that pass that test are from bags that have higher gather. --so i dont know if i still have faith in your test... my docbag can stay in a molded shape while shredding.... but is it really inferior?

i think its personal preference on what thread is best for play and life. i like floss so far. probably cause i dont have many upholstry bags. but that may change in time.

and also, my standards will be different than everyones, opions of optimal play, weight, size, strength, life, and thread will never be the same...

so... i think this discussion is not going anywhere... because there isnt much to argue, because its strictly opinionated.

[kehern15]

Thanks for responding to this thread Tom. I honestly appreciate your input as a major stitcher in the modified community. I based my stitching philosophies around a model that I found last summer in Lonn Irish's bags. I decided along with others beside me that her bags were the best of any stitcher around during the time. Therefore, I tried to emulate what she was doing during her time as a major footbag stitcher.

To be completely frank, I think that floss produces inferior bags. I have assimilated this myself, and I have heard others talk about the bags that are made from floss.

Contrary to some belief, I am not in competition with you, rather I would like you to make bags thath are optimal for footbaggers. I hold true to the belief that the properties of floss force it to be a mediocre option when selecting threads to use. The bags I have recieved that are floss-made have proven to be 'moldy'. By that I mean they form solid objects of moldable parts instead of being bags of many parts that react to footbag performance.

I understand that you have been using floss for quite sometiime, and this thread may come as a shock to you and others using floss, but it is based on my own experience compounded with other buyers and stitchers within the community.

Lonn Irish, proclaimed as one of, if not the best stitcher to be involved with footbag used upholstery thread. Her bags maintained a quality far superior to most bags in the game. Many will testify to this.

I have followed her examples, and tested methods of other stitchers to come up with what I feel is a superior formula for footbag stitching.

Obviously you and others may still hold onto the floss method. I will not fault you for this. But, I will show you, over time, that my bags, made with thread, will out-perform any bags made of floss. Not because you are the ones making them, but because the properties of floss don't allow a footbag to expand and collapse the way a professional-grade footbag should.

-Chris Miller

Wow, you took a pretty strong stance. I really hope that your "superior" bags succeed versus a floss bag, or you may just crash and burn. Lets see what happens, Let the games begin!

Floss vs. Thread

Floss-1
Thread-0

Who's next?

[Nathan]

My thoughts:

Gordon Bevier's Mosher bag was playable right away and is as similar to a new Lonn bag as I have seen. They both have a texture to the stitching and filler that feels very soft and fluid like almost. I'm not sure if this is the way I want my bags to feel or not, but regardless I have never been able to duplicate it.

I have sewn with both floss and button thread, on at least 25 bags each. Neither breaks easily. The floss I used is stretchy and therefore creates a bag that has little break in time and is MORE pliable then a bag made of button thread. I have never noticed this cage that Chris describes.

After 3 months, my bags made of the two different threads played equally well and I certainly couldn't pick out which bag was made with which thread.

Nate

edit: Also Chris, I'm curious of what bags you have owned and played with?

[shredzilla]

WARNING My longest post ever...

i dont believe floss is a problematic thread.

i think the stitching method, facile used and grade of floss also determine the performance of a bag. that use of floss alone cannot degrade a bag as such "inferior" specimen for performance

Correct. But it plays a major factor.

my bags use floss, but i like them better than any pro bag ive got... so far...
they pancake on your foot, but once set again, re-inflate. they dont do that when first made, cause my filler is dense, and i like bags emptyish. my gather is usually medium, which may also be a problem for your mold test.

You're right, your bags aren't gathered a lot. So, the floss isn't AS big of a problem. They do kinda expand back. And really, they don't pancake as much, yet. I haven't broken them in fully to give you a final result. However, your stitches are showing, and your panels aren't puffy. Those are both bad qualities in a bag. I learned early on in my stitching career that flat panels=bad. Puffy panels offer more grip to the bag. Mosher's got a perfect stitching technique when it comes to this factor.

the only bags i own that pass that test are from bags that have higher gather. --so i dont know if i still have faith in your test... my docbag can stay in a molded shape while shredding.... but is it really inferior?

Yes, you want the footbag to be round in the air, not flat. Otherwise, go out and get a box of Frosted Flakes and play with the free Footy Buddy inside

i think its personal preference on what thread is best for play and life.

Yeah, I would agree with you in the case of 'life', but in making footbags you have to think of best case scenarios when stitching. 'I want the bag to do ___ when I catch it, ___ when I release it.' When you go into stitching with that frame of mind, you strive to create a bag that caters to those aspects of play.

If you fill in those blanks with 'not move' and 'stay the same shape', then you will make a certain type of bag.

Look, again, I'm not trying to compete with you guys, that's why I made this thread. If I was trying to compete with other stitchers, I would take my trade secrets and hide them away for no one to benefit from. Mosher's pretty much my direct competition. But I'd rather lose business to him, and have him make better bags. Mainly cuz I hate playing with crappy bags in a circle. It's unnecessary given the advanced status of our sport.

Also Chris, I'm curious of what bags you have owned and played with?

Yours was the first 32 paneled bag I purchased, last year at Funtastik. Hey, I'm glad you asked because it reminded me of something else.

Nate, your bag never fully broke in to my standards. I played with it for a while. Although, even though I have it on my shelf for reference, I was new back then and I can't say that I gave it the most accurate test. I'm looking forward to seeing what you have to offer in Pittsburgh.

I've played with a lot of different bags, but certainly not all. I've played with:

Lonn, Carol, Abshire, Mosher, Peng, Hania, Ilija, Nate, Lesh, Footfighter. (Sorry, I keep editing this list because I keep remembering) out of the 'major' stitchers. I'd like to play with a Mirken because I hear his bags are excellent. Out of those bags the Lonn, Carol, Lesh, and Ilija were the best.

2nd Test, the 'blow' test: Take your broken in bag. Blow gently on it. Does the material cave in? How easily does it do so. Don't blow too hard or you're cheating.

[mosher]

Chris, you're still doing the same thing. You're both making yourself look uneducated and uninformed AND you are doing a really good job of trying to say in a thousand different ways that what I am doing sucks.

SHUT UP ALREADY!!!

Geez, why am I the target of your attack?

I am not in any direct competition with you.

The only stitcher I am in competition with is Pengpeng.

At the last tournament you went to, did you play with your own bags in circles because everyone agreed that yours were the best? Likely not. At every damn event I go to every circle winds up playing my (or pengs) bags that I bring because they play the best.

I don't care what you do to make bags, I do care that you are spending so much time trying to say that what I am doing is wrong. If you don't like it, don't copy it. I make bags that I like to play with, in fact, I almost exclusively play with my own bags or Peng's.

It is fine for a bag to plop flat on your foot. What really matters is that the bag becomes a sphere again upon release, this feature is NOT determined by the thread choice, as shown by all my bags since they are all floss and all have this characteristic. Your "true" test doesn't really test anything at all, it only shows once again that you don't really get it.

All your test says is that the bag isn't broken in yet if it pops back up.

What really sets our bags apart is how we stitch them! Not the thread we use. I think you are placing far too much importance on one of the MANY factors that go into making bags different.

I can make stiff bags or floppy bags all with the same panels and thread and filler!!!

PS. Peng says you used the word 'assimilate' wrong. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

PPS my Lonn collapses when you squish it and stays that way.

PPPS this was a really long and negative post, but it had a purpose.. for real

[shredzilla]

I apologize if I offended you Tom. To recieve constructive criticism is to exhibit humility. If someone told me my bags were crap, I'd say, prove it. If they proved it, then I would thank them for helping me learn to make a better bag.

If someone said my whirls were the, I would say show me why, and help me make them better. Not get offended. We're all here to learn, not to outdo each other.

PS- Sorry for using assimilate incorrectly.

PPS- It's no secret how I make my bags. I use button thread, facile, 7g of BBs, 40g of shot, 3g of poly pellets. My current template is 1 inch long for the long side of the hex, 25% on the short side, and .9 I believe on the pent. The formula however was updated since I last posted my 'secrets'.

[david]

Granted I'm not a pro stitcher or anything, but I've made a few bags, and I won East Coasts with a bag I made, so maybe I can just share my views.

I think this agrument is stupid. What you make a bag out of really doesnt matter at all. You can make a bag out of thread, floss, or cat fur and if it's heavy enough it will be alright. It's really silly to argue about this stuff.

I think the main thing is that if your really a good freestyler your bag shouldn't matter. I placed 1st 1st 2nd and 3rd at grass with a miller, 1st, 1st, 1st, and 2nd at spike and shred with a mosher, and 1st, 1st, 1st at ec with a clavens. and my bags suck compared to those guys. all are bags are all made COMPLETLEY differently. And guess what: ones button, ones floss, and ones upholestery (mine). and if your relying on a bag to hit your tricks, then.... huh?

At the end of the day, your placement and filler mean a shitload more. And furthermore, you both make good bags. So who the hell cares. Go kick a sock filled with rice if your so anal about thread.

David

[Wasabi]

Chris, I tried not to use Lonn as a reference in her use of thread but her "technique" on how to use it as a way that her bags don't "pancake," because I know you've seen the network she's built inside them - but I guess I have to throw that argument in. I wanted to be discreet on it because I don't want (nor like) to share trade secrets the least bit, but it seems like it's needed to expose what's troubling in your argument.

Think about it. If Lonn had not used that same network inside her bags, what would the result be? Would her bags pancake even at full break-in? Actually, the result is a given. Her bags actually do pancake. The forces that sets and kicks give in, the kinetic energy that is transfered through her bags, will in a sense make her bags flatten out and scatter wildly. However, as I mentioned before, with her network of threading inside her bags, it is actually a method in which "resists" some of that kinetic energy so much that (with that amount of thread she's calculated to use) the bag still keeps some spherical shape upon impact. I'm sure your bags behave in that same way, with a different technique of course, but I severely doubt it's because of what thread is "used."

Of course, now the argument stands - what type of thread will be resilient with that type of method so that it can take the hardships of break-in? Lonn has calculated that as well, with upholstery thread of course. Button thread only comes close to that, but with some break-in. Floss may not take that hardship, but it was never tested similarly. And, to some degree, it has mostly only been used under a method similar to the double-thread technique. Really, Chris, it's based on the method you would use for the bag along with other factors, not directly or playing a major part on what thread you would use. Yes, there're different rates of break-in and resilience with some threads, but the fact of the matter is out there. How bags do and don't pancake is a clear notion on what stitching method you use, what fabric, gather, etc. Yes, thread plays a role, but not as major as you would like to think it be.

Again, I'm not trying sound like I'm bitching at all of the arguments you're throwing out here, but I definitely find alot of things unreasonable in your arguments without so much as any clear validity backing them up.

I'm throwing in the towel (ie. out of this discussion).

[HG]

chris made me a bag. I got it yesterday





Already my best shred bag

[hacksterbator]

i like floss, it keeps the gaps between the pents cavity free!

[HG]

Anyways, i took 1 picture. Thread vs floss



Left is one of chris's latest bags, right is a doc bag... about a year old? Doc bag is floss i think.




Obviously they stitch differently, i wonder if the floss vs thread has anything to do with puffy panels vs flat panels though? I have stitched like 3 bags, all of which sucked. So im not sure if thread matters or not. IF it does, thats a big difference

[shredzilla]

Hmm, I think that a lot of the floss bags I'd seen became flat over time. Perhaps the floss stretched out, causing the gather to loosen. And because floss doesn't have properties of being able to go stretch and contract like nylon, the panels then remained flat.

Hey, thanks for taking those pics though. It gave me a good idea for something. I may post some pics later of what I mean by 'moldy'.

In conjunction with Henry's new found theory, I've made a diagram that may serve as evidence for this:

_________ floss
_____________ broken in floss


_________ button thread
-------------- broken in button thread (Same length, but softer now)


=======Nylon thread
and
=========== (Thread will remain variant throughout life of bag)

[Pengu]

This is silly. Stitchers make bags they (and hopefully others) would like to play with. It's not a matter of this material being better than that.

It's just another factor of what makes bags different. A property you may not like in a bag someone else may like. Lots of stitchers just means lots of selection to choose from to find the kind of bag that embodies the properties you would like to play with.

Chris, if Lonn is who you're trying to emulate then go right ahead. I'd prefer for my bags to look like Lonn's and play like mine.

Hole placement has more to do with the up-and-over puffiness than thread. Any experienced stitcher can tell you that. Tom and I use the same panels and materials and his hole placements create his flat paneled bags and I make a more puffy bag and it stays puffy through the break in.

In the end it's all about preference and Tom and I prefer our floss bags. I've made a bag with thread. I can't feel any difference between it and a new bag of mine made with floss. The only difference was, with my stitching style, the thread bag didn't break in while floss bags broke in nicely. The stretch is beneficial in the way I want my bag to break in.

So different styles also require different materials. Quit trying to make different be bad. Think of it as art and remember it's all subjective. There's no need for this material discrimination.

[shredzilla]

Hole placement has more to do with the up-and-over puffiness than thread. Any experienced stitcher can tell you that.

Incorrect. It's gather, in conjunction with materials used.

So different styles also require different materials. Quit trying to make different be bad. Think of it as art and remember it's all subjective. There's no need for this material discrimination.

That's the point. It's not art, it's a performance tool. You guys take these high-powered shots of these gorgeous works of art that you create, and that's fine, but maybe some of the performance has been lost. By the way, I'm nottrying to attack you or any other floss user. I'm trying to illustrate that different threads exhibit different properties which are good/bad for stitching.

Think of it this way: Have you ever bought an article of clothing stitched from FLOSS? There's a reason for this. They don't SELL floss at fabric/stitching stores. Cotton/Polyester and Nylon thread are industry standard for stitching fabric. It's what professionals in the industry use. Floss wouldn't even come close to a viable option for any professional stitcher.

[Chim-Chim]

I prefer nylon upholstery thread over floss.

It is strange you think knots come undone easily though; if you leave a little extra length of thread after your knot it won't slip undone.

The 32's made with floss that I have used do seem to retain a flat shape after a set more than those made with other threads, but it could be the filler or stitching style or break in technique used, not the floss.

The only true test of a bag is to break it in, and play with it. If it plays well it's a good bag.

[Kyle Hewitt]

Jake wins!

(Ps I want that test 12 =( )

EDIT:


I want to bring something to this topic so I will.......

I have to go with Jake on this Thread thing...... I've played with reallllly good footbags since I've been playing and I think they have used different types of thread (Carol Lonn Toby Mosher etc etc) but they all played very well and used different thread


In other words I don't think it matters what the bag is held together with as long as it breaks in good.

[shredzilla]

It is strange you think knots come undone easily though; if you leave a little extra length of thread after your knot it won't slip undone.

I actually haven't had a ton of experience with Nylon as far as inside the bag goes. Only a few that Dave made, and a couple of lonns I disected. I think maybe quadra-tying the knot would solve most of my worries.

I also thought of a new method last night after reading Waylon's post. Burning the nylon knot, and then pushing it, will form a hardened seal, similar to the method used with floss.