Israel bombs The Lebanon

[BainbridgeShred]

Shit, Jeremy, if Jews waited for someone else to defend Israel, well, thank god they didn't wait for help from Australia...

Begs the question, why should anyone defend Israel? Israel is a country founded out of other countries, who basically had their land stolen by the UN. I don't take sides because I really don't care about peace in the Middle East, but I think Arab's have a pretty legitimate reason to be pissed at Israel. And really, because of this, these two sides are never going to stop fighting until one of them dies.

Think about it, Israel basically came in and took all the best land from Syria and what was then Trans-Jordan, in the wake of the final crumbling of colonial Europe. If the same thing happened to your country after hundreds of years of being screwed over by other white folks, and then a bunch of Jews coming in and taking your good land by the sea, you'd be pretty pissed too.

I don't know. From a Christian perspective, Zionism isn't supported in the Bible, and I really just don't find any other reason why I'd want to throw my support behind it or the country based upon it. And really, all this talk about how Arab's are the agressor's is true, but not surprising in light of the fact that Israel's objective is just to stay together as a country (Thus a defensive objective), while the Arab's objective is to take back their land (Offensive). Doesn't really make violence in either case justified though, and its continuation is only going to keep the two parties deadlocked and without resolution like it has been since '48.

Whatever. Fuck the Israeli's, fuck the Arab terrorists. They're both too stupid to come to any sort of middle ground, and the US is too stupid to understand this, and they keep sending 40 billion dollars a year to the fucking Jews, all so they can kill Arab's, and in turn get our country hit with a fucking plane times 3.

International politics by nature is too stupid to discuss intelligently.

[Jeremy]

At the last count (yesterday - that I saw)from this particular part of the conflict:

Isralies dead - less than 30
Lebanese dead - 230 - of which over 200 are civillians.

Jon you failed to comment on my point which is:

Do you believe that it is justifiable to kill children (or any civillians)?

But fucking they asked for they're asses to be attacked.

Who are you talking about? The 20 or so anti Israeli militants or the 200 civillians? Did those 200 people ask to be attacked? Is the life of 1 Israeli worth the lives of 10 Lebanese?


It seems to me that Israel is collectively punishing the people of Lebannon for the actions of Hezbollah. I don't support Hezbollah and I don't support Israel.

Incidentally recently in Australia a book has been published by a Jewish scholar and journalist named Antony Loewenstein called "My Israel Question" which argues againt the military actions of Israel (amongst others) and the responce of the jewish community in Australia is to lobby to have the book banned. This is typical of the Zionist community - to lobby for things that oppose their opinions to be banned as being "anti-sematic" - clearly in this case they can't argue that, but I have no doubt if Loewenstein was not jewish they would and have and instead they argue (amongst other things) that he is a terrorist supporter.

What I find interesting is that the only academics who argue that Israelis acts of violence are justified are Jewish - and there are also plenty of jewish academics who argue that those actions aren't justified.

How do those who support Israel feel about "women in black"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Black

"Women in Black is a world wide movement of women, committed to non-violence and non-aggression, both as a goal and as a means. Estimates say there are about 10,000 members world wide. Though there is no agreement upon constitution between the various segments world wide, all members believe that male violence against women in domestic life and war are connected.

The first group was formed by Israeli women in Jerusalem in 1988, following the outbreak of the first Intifada (Palestinian uprising). Shocked by what they considered serious violations of human rights by Israeli soldiers in the Occupied Territories and considering the situation of military occupation of one people by another as the root cause, the women decided to hold a vigil every Friday in central Jerusalem, wearing black clothing in mourning for all victims of whatever side and holding signs with the slogan "Down with the Occupation"."

Which is a movement my mother belongs to.

There is growing opposition to the Israel governments abuse of human rights amongst both Israeli and non Israeli Jews and Israel is gaining less and less support.

I guess one of the really significant things about the Lebannon violence is that there are so many foreigners in Lebannon - especially British, Americans, Australians etc. Already 1 Canadian has been killed and I think the fact that there are so many foreigns is really going to weaken Israels position significantly because suddenly those countries are forced to try and look after their own people who are under threat of being killed by Israel - I think tactically this is a very bad conflict for Israel.

[Jeremy]

Begs the question, why should anyone defend Israel? Israel is a country founded out of other countries, who basically had their land stolen by the UN.

Yeah this is an important point - I think it was fairly obvious when Israel was founded that it was going to lead to serious on going violence. The majority of people living in the area were opposed to the formation of Israel and the only way Israel could fight that opposition was with force. I'm not saying forming Israel was a mistake or not - but it was clearly something that was going to lead to violence.

[Outsider]

bainbridgeshred said:

WAY too many errors to tackle tonight. its past my bed time. maybe tomorrow...

If you don't want to be educated on the subject, fine, but then, why bother showing-off your ignorance?

[Jeremy]

Why bother commenting on his ignorance? Why don't we try to keep this away from personal arguements?

[Guest_2]

At the last count (yesterday - that I saw)from this particular part of the conflict:

Isralies dead - less than 30
Lebanese dead - 230 - of which over 200 are civillians.

Jon you failed to comment on my point which is:

Do you believe that it is justifiable to kill children (or any civillians)?

But fucking they asked for they're asses to be attacked.

Who are you talking about? The 20 or so anti Israeli militants or the 200 civillians? Did those 200 people ask to be attacked? Is the life of 1 Israeli worth the lives of 10 Lebanese?


It seems to me that Israel is collectively punishing the people of Lebannon for the actions of Hezbollah. I don't support Hezbollah and I don't support Israel.

What do you expect to be done Jeremy? Honestly? It comes down to Israel's right to exist. Israel is attacked daily. What do you want them to do when they're attacked?

Once Israel began retaliating against countries who did not control their terrorists, attacks lowered drastically.

Nothing disturbs me more than harm coming to women/children. Children especially. But what the fuck should Israel do when it's constantly being attacked? It has a responsibility to protect its own citizens.

What should they do? Just let the terrorists attack them?

[Guest_2]

Think about it, Israel basically came in and took all the best land from Syria and what was then Trans-Jordan, in the wake of the final crumbling of colonial Europe. If the same thing happened to your country after hundreds of years of being screwed over by other white folks, and then a bunch of Jews coming in and taking your good land by the sea, you'd be pretty pissed too.

You stupid fuck. The land was a waste of sand. The Arabs let the land die for years. If the Jews hadn't returned to the land, it would still be just sand. And, the surrounding areas wouldn't have anyone [ISRAEL] to support their asses.

[Jeremy]

Of course they shouldn't let the terrorists attack them. I don't think anybody in the entire universe thinks that.

Once Israel began retaliating against countries who did not control their terrorists, attacks lowered drastically.

Source? Back that up with some facts.


It's not a question of defending yourself. I reject that it is impossible for Israel to defend its self without killing children and innocent people. If Israel called a cease fire right now do you think Hezzbollah would continue to attack? How would the international community react to that? - I see an immediate cease fire as very much a short term solution. Long term solutions would be dealing with human rights abuses that Israel have committed, pursing justice (and not vengence) over the human rights abuses Israel has suffered. Dealing with the inequality in the region and making an effort to compensate the Palestinian people for their loss of land. I think that if Israel took those actions than they would win the support of the West - and that would be a much more signiciant gain for Israel than any amount of people they can kill.

Nothing disturbs me more than harm coming to women/children. Children especially.

But dispite it disturbing you, you think its justified? You think its ok that those children are dead because Israel is apparantly safer?

[Outsider]

jeremy

Why bother commenting on his ignorance? Why don't we try to keep this away from personal arguements?

I thought it was important to distinguish between my factually-based responses in this topic and bainbridgeshred's off-the-cuff and factually incorrect statements. I'd have responded to them point-by-point last night, but it was very late and I had work the next day. Similarly, I'd respond to them now, but I am now at work, so its not a good time. Still, I wasn't attacking him personally, I was dismissing his latest post as wildly inaccurate and was just wondering aloud why, when he clearly doesn't know much about this situation, he feels the need to proclaim his unsupported opinions as though they had a factual basis. I didn't feel it fair that I should provide so much factual and historical detail and Dan could just come along with stuff like:

Whatever. Fuck the Israeli's, fuck the Arab terrorists. They're both too stupid to come to any sort of middle ground

What do you think about it Jeremy? Actually, I thought I got much more personal in my second post responding to your first. I do have a problem with your debating style. First, I provided plenty of point-by-point response to dyalander in my first post, and you basically attempted to completely dismiss it as Jewish Rhetoric. You went on to characterize Israel's efforts at self-defense as unrealistically idealistic, when in fact your apparent position of zero-civilian-deaths seems to be the more unrealisticly idealistic position, especially given the facts of Hezbollah's stated strategy of deliberately hiding their forces and weapons behind civilians. Finally, you throw out such unsupported statements as:

What I find interesting is that the only academics who argue that Israelis acts of violence are justified are Jewish

and then responde to the vindicator with:

Source? Back that up with some facts.

Thats a two-way street, Jer. Lets here all about all those scholars you're claiming to speak for.

Anyway, I'll get back to your questions on innocent lives, correct bainbridgeshred's historical innaccuracies, and address the question of why Israel deserves support later tonight.

[Splint]

However I think it is entirely possible to criticise both sides of the conflict.

Yet, you don't. The extent of your criticism is that "Hezzbollah is an organization that commits serious crimes against humanity." Way to go Captain Understatement. They are Murderers, and only less dangerous than Israel because they lack the weaponry. Make no mistake about it, they are terrorists. If they had the arsenal, they would not stop killing until every single Jew and sympathetic Arab in Israel was dead. That is the ultimate difference between Israel and Hezzbollah. Israel will stop.

The problem with discussing this issue is that you always get the same rhetoric from Jewish defenders of the Israel state.

I DARE YOU to come up with a Middle East Peace solution that all parties will agree with and stick to. See that's the real problem Jeremy. Whenever this issue is discussed you always get the same stupid criticism about Israel from your side Jeremy without any realistic understanding of what BOTH sides go through.

[Outsider]

Splint

That is the ultimate difference between Israel and Hezzbollah.

Or another simply but accurate way to sum of the difference between the two sides:

Israel uses its army to defend its civilians.

Hezbollah uses civilians to defend its army.

[dyalander]

I don't think Jeremy really has to put out the side opposed to his argument - its been made clear already by others.
But the more I find out about the situation I still remain unconvinced that Israel's actions are the right ones morally or strategically. If you compare it to the situation in which during the 80's Israel invaded and occupied southern Lebanon to stop rocket attacks by Arafat's PLO, the occupation did indeed reduce these attacks and inflict heavy losses on the PLO, however surprise surprise it didn't actually solve anything because eventually they had to withdraw and we're back to square one. Back then both the Israelis and the Syrians tried to support particualr sides the Syrians got worried and switched sides, and the country was destroyed but all the problems remained unchanged. Clearly the real problem extends well beyond the Lebanese who are caught up in a greater regional problem and find that a disproportionate amount of destruction is being brought upon them not only because of their own inability to supress militants but also because of the surrounding situation which continues to breed violence.
Israel has a couple of options which will lead to a solution - all out war until either their opponents or they themselves are destroyed. OR a more peaceful solution that while of course it will never please everyone, pleases enough of the powerful people in the region and perhaps more importantly beyond, to make them want to invest their forces and resources into maintaining the situation rather than destabalising it.

I DARE YOU to come up with a Middle East Peace solution that all parties will agree with and stick to

This isn't necessary, they don't have to please everyone, they just have to please enough people to help them supress terrorists in their own countries so that Israel no longer has to do it.

[Jeremy]

Finally, you throw out such unsupported statements as:

What I find interesting is that the only academics who argue that Israelis acts of violence are justified are Jewish

and then responde to the vindicator with:

Source? Back that up with some facts.

Thats a two-way street, Jer. Lets here all about all those scholars you're claiming to speak for.

Actually I mentioned a Jewish scholar who thinks Israel's military oppression is a bad thing in one of my earlier posts - Antony Loewenstein

Another would be Dr Ilan Pappe - senior Lecturer at the University of Haifa, Israel.

Those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head but I can find more if you like.

edit:

And I just wanted to say that I don't feel like it's neccessary to comment on Hezbollah very much for a number of reasons. 1. Nobody is trying to defend them. If somebody did come into this topic and defend Hezbollah's actions I would definitely attack those comments, but they haven't - everything I've written has been in responce (sometimes indirectly) to what people have said in this topic. What would I achieve in attack Hezbollah. I assume that everybody who reads this topic thinks that Hezbollah are doing the wrong thing - both for their cause and morally. I don't see this as an issue that is up for debate - I hope we all agree with this so it doesn't seem to achieve anything.

But just for Brad here is what I think of Hezbollah:

I am very much opposed to extremist religious groups - in fact I'm generally opposed to religion in general. I find it disgusting that people kill other people because of religion and that they justify the murder of civillians with religion. I think that original intention in the forming of Hezbollah was a just cause (expelling foreigners from Lebannon) but the way they went about it was both counter productive and morally indefensable. The view that killing civillians in order to help your cause is something that I find abhorrant. "Hezbollah" basically means "party of god" and Hezbollah demonstrates the problem that believing those who don't follow your god are inferior. I think history shows very clearly that it is impossible to achieve victory in any conflict with attacks against civillians unless you have a much greater force than your enemy. So putting aside the immorality of killing innocent people - I also believe that it's completely counter productive to any goals that Hezbollah may have to conduct attacks against civillians. It's undeniable that we now live in a fairly globalised world and the international opinion generated by your actions are crucial in achieving any goals. I would guess the counter arguement would be that terrorism draws attention to your cause and that if you didn't commit acts of terrorism the world would ignore your cause and the enemy could treat you however you like. This may be true however I think it's much more likely to gain positive support for your cause if you attention seeking acts are non violent. I think there are countless examples of non violent acts gaining much more support and really changing the course of conflict much more so than violent acts. It would be very hard for the world to ignore the cause of the Palestinian people and of the Lebanese people if they stood in front of tanks and marched peacefully up to borders etc. In any event this is a moot point because my understanding of Hezbollah is that their acts of violence against civillains are not aimed at getting the attention of the world and that they don't care what the world thinks but just want to kill people. In some ways it's understandable that people in that situation would hate and demonise the enemy and that they'd feel like they need to do something fast and active however I think that's a very short sighted approach and in the long term doesn't help their cause at all. It's unrealistic for Hezbollah to believe that they can ever wipe out Israel or the Israeli people using force alone - so the only significant change they can succeed in is changing people's attitudes. I think their actions clearly make attitudes towards them worse not better. To be more specific about the current crisis - I think the first actions of attacking Israeli soldiers were at least legitimate acts - I'm opposed to violence and I strongly disagree with those actions morally but they were actions that are very hard on their own to criticise Hezbollah for when so many powerful countries around the world also use military force at times. However the subsequent indiscriminate missile firing at Israel completely destroyed their credibility - or would have if they had any to begin with. As it is they will never gain support from the West or from the developed world with actions like that. The arrogance of taking actions that really condemn all the people in the region to conflict and violence is disgusting - the view I guess that they are so right and that their option is the only one and that all the people on both sides don't get a say but that what is a minority group can make decisions that have such long lasting and negative impacts really makes me furious.

Zionists often complain about the fact that they hide amongst civillians. Certainly morally this is fairly low since their actions are putting their civillians at risk but I don't really see what choice they have. Being such a smaller organisation with much less resources than Israel they can hardly have a dedicated military base - it seems fairly likely that Israel would bomb this - so they have to hide and if they're going to hide - the only place you can really hide is amongst other people. That said, it demonstrates another reason why violence is the wrong approach to be taking in this conflict by Hezbollah and it shows that they've made the decision that their cause is not just worthy of them dieing for - but they've made the choice that their civillians lives are also worth dieing for the cause - which is a fairly disgusting decision to make when you think about it. So the way I see it their choice is either to wage a non violent campaign or to hide amongst their civillians and I very much believe the former is both in their best interests and morally a much stronger position.

[Splint]

Israel has a couple of options which will lead to a solution - all out war until either their opponents or they themselves are destroyed. OR a more peaceful solution that while of course it will never please everyone, pleases enough of the powerful people in the region and perhaps more importantly beyond, to make them want to invest their forces and resources into maintaining the situation rather than destabalising it.

Wonderfully obtuse in it's own naive way.

All out war involving Israel guarantees a World War like no one has ever seen. That is a war that will not remain in the Middle East alone. Terror groups in every country will insure that enough attacks ensue to generate Marshall law in most of the "free" world. The Arab World will be divided and the race to either develop or steal nuclear and chemical weapons will rage with a certain victor who is guaranteed to use them (cough cough Iran cough cough).

As for Peace. Israel has made it abundantly clear for years that they are willing to have peaceful negotiations, but not unless they are guaranteed that terrorist attacks will cease. That never happens because the surrounding Arab governments do not have that kind of control over their citizens and in a large part continue to fund terrorist organizations.

I This isn't necessary, they don't have to please everyone, they just have to please enough people to help them supress terrorists in their own countries so that Israel no longer has to do it.

Which requires overthrowing the governments of Syria, Lebanon, Iran, the U.A.E., and Jordan. Oh and don't forget Pakistan And probably destabalizing the economic infrastructure of Saudi Arabia. Each is extremely corrupt and gives exhorbitant amounts of money and support to terrorist organization.

Here's the real deal. NO ONE CARES.
The average Arab country couldn't care less about the Israeli/Palestinian problem. They'd just as soon live in their own little country and ignore Israel. Israel would be fine with that as well. However, the Palestinians are not satisfied with their position (nor should they be) and they cry out to the rest of the world to help them. The problem is that the rest of the world doesn't give a rats ass and thinks that as long as no suicide bombers are blowing up busses and the Israelis are knocking down buildings, then everyone over their must be doing just fine.


Here's a peaceful suggestion. The UN imposes economic sanctions on every single country in the region and the country that continues to survive and makes the most amount of money without a single shot fired or so much as a drop of oil sold, wins.

[Splint]

Israel uses its army to defend its civilians.

Hezbollah uses civilians to defend its army.

And that my friend is why I curbed my years-long defense of the Palestinians.

[BainbridgeShred]

My point: Israel has been "defending" themselves for over 50 years, and there's still no end in sight. Someone explain to me why this is an effective strategy to continue pissing off a large population south of their boarder, by blowing up buildings and urban centers. OMG ISREEL HAS TO DFEND THEMSELVES RIGHT? No matter if their policies are justified (Which they are if you beleive in eye for an eye), they simply don't fucking work. If Israel doesn't change their stance they're going to be fighting the Arab's until the end times.

[cd]

Brad, the Palestinians? You mean you no longer support the needs of the Palestinian people? I mean, Hamas is pretty damn barbaric and evil, but I am unclear who you are referring to. Although Hamas was elected, I still think that the common people there deserve that distinction.




Also, it's apparent that many came to this thread with their minds already made up about the situation, and only continue to discuss it because they want to be right or want to 'win' this little dispute. Maybe the fate of the Middle Eastern world depends on who here on modified.in is morally and intellectually superior, or maybe the sake of pissing matches is reason enough to turn this from discussion into debate. That said, I don't think taking sides is the right way to look at this situation. Like Jeremy said, Hezbollah is a pretty indefensible organization, and it would be insane to support what they're doing. (However, I think that the nature of terrorist groups, their legitimacy, their effectiveness, and their motives is a subject worthy of its own thread. There's a LOT to be discussed just on Hezbollah's existence, why it provoked this attack, and what it stands to gain in their current situation within Lebanese politics and power structure.)

Israel is just as much to blame for the current crisis. In response to 2 soldiers being kidnapped, less than 10 dead by rockets and a handful
of injuries, the military begins bombing Lebanon. They have destroyed a power plant and main roads and killed over 300 civilians in bombings in the last 10 days. THEN they decide to leaflet southern Lebanon telling everyone that there's going to be more bombing and everyone needs to leave. Half a million people are being displaced, along with about 200,000 foreigners who are struggling to flee the country. All with a damaged infrastructure.

It is clear that they don't give a damn about the lives of anyone but Israelis. In fact, after Kofi Annan spoke yesterday, CNN had a spokesman for Olmert on television. I'm paraphrasing, but his response to being asked about how Israel feels about the situation for Lebanese civilians was something like "Israel has enough problems of its own. Those people are not our concern." I nearly choked on my coffee when I heard that. I don't have a solution for the Middle East, but that attitude is completely the opposite from what it's going to take to move toward any sort of peace.

And this is just what Hezbollah was trying to provoke. They may be a deplorable, barbaric, and fanatical group, but they aren't stupid. You can't expect to wipe out a guerrilla or terrorist group with military force, and I'd argue that Israel's attacks are only helping them out. The way I see it, the more violence and chaos there is, and the more that the general population is in strife, the better off a terrorist organization is. The invasion will be good for recruitment, and will possibly also result in more anti-Israel sentiment and more political power in the hands of Hezbollah. Here are two articles that better explain what I'm trying to talk about:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5188468.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5200628.stm



Ok, that's all the writing I can handle at the moment. I'm hoping that nobody takes it as an attack on their views. I would rather just discuss the reality of the situation and hear what people think, not join a debate between those defending Israel and those critical of it. That's just the direction I see this thread heading in, although I might be wrong.

[Jeremy]

That's exactly right - you expressed my views in a much more eloquent manner - props

[Splint]

Brad, the Palestinians? You mean you no longer support the needs of the Palestinian people? I mean, Hamas is pretty damn barbaric and evil, but I am unclear who you are referring to. Although Hamas was elected, I still think that the common people there deserve that distinction.

Hamas, Hezzbollah, Fatah, the PLO... they are all just the Terror Du Jour. One group establishes itself, doesn't get the job done, another one forms with more aggressive tactics. I absolutely understand that there is a distinction between the average Palestinian citizen and one who belongs to a Terrorist organization. However, I do not support the overwhelming Palestinian movement to erradicate all the Jews in Israel. Palestinian Leadership has made it abundantly clear that the only peace that can exist is the one where the Jews die or leave Israel and the Palestinians move in.

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews." ~ Yasser Arafat

If the Palestinians, as a people rather than a collection of terrorist organizations, really want peace and an establishment of their own state, then they need to stop electing Terrorist leaders and stop housing and aiding terrorist organizations. They have been offered more peace solutions than any one of them can count, but their Megalomaniacal leaders refuse to make any progress toward an actual realistic peace.

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."



"If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence.
If the Jews put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel."

The way I see it, the more violence and chaos there is, and the more that the general population is in strife, the better off a terrorist organization is. The invasion will be good for recruitment, and will possibly also result in more anti-Israel sentiment and more political power in the hands of Hezbollah.

Agreed. Israel has made it's point and should begin standing down. They have set Lebanon back 20 years and need to begin a process of diplomacy.

[Guest_2]

lol @ Brad. I just spoke with my friend who is coming to kick with me tomorrow. He's from Ber Sheba [and has only been in the US for 5 out of the 6 months he will be here]. He and his family are freaking out because of the bombings going on in Israel etc because he has family in Haifa.

Israel is being attacked at the moment