Medical bills are way too expensive... But why?

[Switch Kicker]

Why is that if someone doesn't have health insurance, a trip to the doctor's office is $290? Why does Adderall (ADD medication) cost $130 for one month's worth? And then you have to go to the doctor to get another refill, costing an extra $290. Why do these things cost so much, when they are manufactured at pennies on the dollar?

It doesn't make any sense to me.

What got me thinking about it is the fact that my girlfriend, Tamaran, 18 years old, A and B graduate, looking to open up her own business of 1-3 coffee shops in either Minneapolis, or Chicago after she gets done with her 4 years of college, has a small back problem. Every once in a while, she feels pinching in her spine, and it causes extreme pain. She however, coming from a not-so-wealthy family, meaning that her dad died when she was 2, and her mom works as maintainence in Wal-Mart, can't afford health insurance, can't go to the doctor, because she can't afford to "waste" $290 on just the visit, let alone the chance that she may need months and months of theropy done on her back. Which would cost god knows how much.

Why the hell do these things cost so much?

Seriously... $290 for a doctors visit, and that's just for him to tell you that everything's fine. But everything's not fine, is it? 6 months later, you find out that you developed breast cancer or some shit like that 8 fucking months ago, 2 months before you had the doctor's visit, which you paid $290 for, and now you've got 4 months to live. And then they tell you that if they had detected it 2-3 months sooner, they could've fixed it. But no, you had to pay $290 for a doctor to lie to you and say there's nothing wrong with you.

This type of shit happens all the time, and I don't understand why. It's wrong, and things like this should not fucking happen. No one should have to decide between this month's rent, or fixing your back which sometimes renders you from working.

Discuss.

[Zeb Jackson]

i agree, growing up in a not so wealthy family myself i too have been between a rock and a hardplace sometimes when it came to medical care, when i was 11 years old i got a rock chip in my eye, and we had my grandfather drive me to the hospital because its was TONS cheaper than the ambulance ride there, was it more painful? yes...was it cheaper?Yes....
Also my dad broke his back when i was 15 years old, and he needed surgery to replace several crushed minuski(sp?) but my family couldnt afford it (8500$ for the operation i think?) and then it was 60-ish something a day for him to stay there to recover, over all it would have cost TONS of money that my family coudnt afford, so my dad quit his job as an iron worker, and choose a new profession that wouldnt hurt his back, and he woudnt have to go to the hospital for

[gangsta]

That's great but who says all doctors are liars? These guys are highly trained professionals. That's skilled labor, and their time is worth Alot of money. Also, people accusing doctors of being liars, and malpractice suits make it expensive for the doc's themselves. Plus, they have to higher skilled people (nurses, receptionists) as well, and that's more overhead. $$$$ [/url]

[Zeb Jackson]

your right...time is money...now im going to go to some street corner, tell some random bum that ive spent the last year of my life honing my skills for footbag (im highly professional right?) and tell him that he is wasting my time and that he owes me money.

think about it, considering if they were payed by the hour they are paid WAY more than teachers who get payed crap, and teahcers goto school for just as long sometimes, justifying how long someone has trained for a position doesnt really justify how much they should be paid...(well actually it should in a sense but if teachers are beng payed 25k a year why cant doctors tone down the expenses a little?)

[james_dean]

Doctor's have to be highly intelligent and I don't know how your american system works but in australia you definately have to study longer to be a doctor. It's also harder, probably more epensive and also a heavier workload. And as already mentioned things like insurance etc also contribute.

That said, the concept of having to choose between rent and health is ridiculous. In a society like the US, adequate health care should be a standard for all. We have this in Australia. A standard doctor's visit here costs... around $30-40 I think? Maybe even less, not sure. But no more than that. The American medical system is atrocious in that regard and your leaders should be ashamed.


Are you serious $290?! That's unbelievable!! And don't you have some kind of ambulance membership? Here you can pay a membership fee and any ambulance trips are free. It's under $100 a year. A lot under, not sure of the exact figure, but it's cheap.

[Slowsis]

Come to Canada....its free here!

[jon]

Referring just to costs...

Drugs:
They cost so much even when they are inexpensive to physically make because of the millions if not billion dollars they need in order to perform the R & D needed to bring the drugs to market. It literally takes years of work to come up with a working treament and to get it onto the market. Hundreds of trained scientists are needed, management types are needed, lawyers are needed, and then on top of all those costs the drug companies want to make money off their products so they charge you even more.

Doctors:
They have to operate their office which costs a lot of money. A secretary (if they only have one that is) costs $20-30 an hour. They have rent to pay, electricity and water bills, business taxes, office supplies, malpractice insurance (which can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars), and then the government (at least in Canada) takes 50 % of what they make before they pay for their expenses. I.E that $30 dollar/hour secretary costs them $60/hour in pretax dollars. Add on to that the fact that they go to school for 8 years after university to become a specialist and you have your reason why it costs so much just for them to see you.

[gangsta]

Exactly, jon and james_dean.

People are always expecting something for nothing. Im moving to Canada.

[janis]

I think the american health system is disgusting, if there is one place for government subsidies it is definately medical care, instead of government subsidising companies so the rich get richer.

[Switch Kicker]

There is a huge differnence between Austrailia and the US. Doesn't Austrailia follow Socialism, like the UK? In that case, health care should cost very little, if not nothing at all. But that's not how it works here.

If you don't have insurance, you are screwed. And it costs hundreds to thousands of dollars a year just for the most basic health insurance.

The fact that it takes many years for drugs to be made, and costs money to hire the people to create them and such is completely irrelevant. The deal is that the government should be taking care of this alot more than they are right now.

Taking funds away from schools is stupid, but taking funds from school and putting them into military is even more stupid. If you're going to cut education funds, then you should at least make our health problems easier to deal with, right?

I've already talked to the doctor over the phone and it will cost a total of $580 just for my girlfriend to go in for a visit, and take a few tests to see what's wrong with her back. That is fucking rediculous. I don't care if you go to school for 20 years... that doesn't mean you deserve to set impossible financial standards for people that are just now graduating school and moving out into the world on their own. That $580 doesn't even go towards making her back better.. that's just to find out if there is anything wrong... it's just stupid.

For ME, because I still have health insurance from my parents cause I will have it till I'm done with college, it costs me 10 bucks for a visit, and less than 50 for any perscription I get, garenteed. Total right now, I'm spending 70 bucks a month on 3 different perscriptions, which would normally cost me around 400-500.

Peace,
Fred.

[janis]

Doesn't Austrailia follow Socialism

Not at all, however we have compulsory voting so the government has big incentives to get basic services to everyone (otherwise they get voted out). So the government here spends more taxes on getting people healthcare instead of subsidizing the rich as much(they still do though, but to a lesser extent than the USA).

[Aleksandr]

Doesn't Austrailia follow Socialism, like the UK?

US education system is good. Hooray for your non-socialism values.

[james_dean]

Yes Fred, your government should be doing more for your healthcare. You can't blame the doctors though, it's not their fault, it's the governments fault. Doctor's probably get just as much here, it's just our government aren't tightasses

[Outsider]

Yes Fred, your government should be doing more for your healthcare.

Just to play the devil's advocate here...

Why? Why should government bear more responsibility for your personal health?

it costs hundreds to thousands of dollars a year just for the most basic health insurance.

It costs hundreds to thousands of dollars a year just to own and opperate a basic automobile. Should the gov't buy, maintain, insure, and fuel my car for me?

And isn't your personal health worth hundreds or thousands of dollars each year to you? If you are unwilling to pay the price for your own well-being, why should somebody else be made to?

I've already talked to the doctor over the phone and it will cost a total of $580 just for my girlfriend to go in for a visit, and take a few tests to see what's wrong with her back. That is fucking rediculous. I don't care if you go to school for 20 years... that doesn't mean you deserve to set impossible financial standards for people

What kind of tests? Have you considered the cost of the machines those tests are done on? Perhaps they are machines that, just one generation ago didn't even exist yet. Perhaps you are fortunate that such advanced medical tests can be done at all, and that a few decades ago such information might not have been available to anyone at any price.

If a health professional with 20 years of education (its actually probably closer to 30, Switch) is too expensive for you, maybe you should consider putting your health in the hands of someone who is less highly trained. Maybe you should ask for help from Zeb Jackson; he's spent the last year of his life working hard on honing his bean-bag kicking skills, surely that can do your gf some good...

Sorry to be such an ass; but I did say "DEVIL'S advocate", and that old devil, he's not very nice. Plus, I don't know what it is about communicating on-line but it just brings out the worst in me.

[ville]

Maybe if some of this money was used for public healthcare you wouldn't have to pay that much.



I think it's the governments job to keep it's citizens healthy, maybe I'm just used to the way we have it Finland. The government shouldn't support your car driving because the car pollutes, they should improve the public transportation so that you don't need a car.

The part about you paying for other peoples healthcare is true, but you can also think about it the other way around. What if you happen to get some rare disease that needs and expensive treatment that you can't afford. Wouldn't you be happy that you payed your share of the taxes and the government now payes your expensive treatment.

[Outsider]

The government shouldn't support your car driving because the car pollutes,

Irrelevant (and thats another topic in this forum, Ville. I believe its titled "HEAT"). But just for argument's sake, my car is 100% electric powered, and all the electricity I need to charge the car's battery is derived from the expensive solar panels I installed on the roof of my house. Now should the gov't be expected to buy my car for me? And how about those expensive solar panels?

The part about you paying for other peoples healthcare is true, but you can also think about it the other way around. What if you happen to get some rare disease that needs and expensive treatment that you can't afford. Wouldn't you be happy that you payed your share of the taxes and the government now payes your expensive treatment.

That can be said for a great many things. Perhaps we should all just fork over our entire paychecks to the gov't and let them pay for all our needs (never mind the issue of who decides what our needs are...) Actually, I've got a better idea: if, instead of paying more taxes I payed less taxes, I could more easily afford to insure myself, thus covering the expensive medical treatment.

Anyway, to better clarify my position, there is a point of view which holds that a government should be responsible for those expenses which an individual cannot reasonably be expected to pay for alone. Thats the whole point of having a government. No individual could reasonably be expected to pay for a Navy, for instance. -- Is personal health insurance REALLY one of those things which the individual cannot reasonably be expected to get for himself? (I'm not saying it is or it isn't, and clearly its a debate-able issue. But then, thats what we're doing here, though, isn't it? Debating?)

Besides, Switch's girlfriend could go and get herself some health insurance by taking advantage of that huge military budget of ours. Soldiers in the US military are covered by terrific health insurance. She could enlist...

[Switch Kicker]

Yes Fred, your government should be doing more for your healthcare.

Just to play the devil's advocate here...

Why? Why should government bear more responsibility for your personal health?

it costs hundreds to thousands of dollars a year just for the most basic health insurance.

It costs hundreds to thousands of dollars a year just to own and opperate a basic automobile. Should the gov't buy, maintain, insure, and fuel my car for me?

And isn't your personal health worth hundreds or thousands of dollars each year to you? If you are unwilling to pay the price for your own well-being, why should somebody else be made to?

I've already talked to the doctor over the phone and it will cost a total of $580 just for my girlfriend to go in for a visit, and take a few tests to see what's wrong with her back. That is fucking rediculous. I don't care if you go to school for 20 years... that doesn't mean you deserve to set impossible financial standards for people

What kind of tests? Have you considered the cost of the machines those tests are done on? Perhaps they are machines that, just one generation ago didn't even exist yet. Perhaps you are fortunate that such advanced medical tests can be done at all, and that a few decades ago such information might not have been available to anyone at any price.

If a health professional with 20 years of education (its actually probably closer to 30, Switch) is too expensive for you, maybe you should consider putting your health in the hands of someone who is less highly trained. Maybe you should ask for help from Zeb Jackson; he's spent the last year of his life working hard on honing his bean-bag kicking skills, surely that can do your gf some good...

Sorry to be such an ass; but I did say "DEVIL'S advocate", and that old devil, he's not very nice. Plus, I don't know what it is about communicating on-line but it just brings out the worst in me.

Driving a car a convenience, it's not a neccessity. I have no problem riding a bike to work or school.

And if you were as smart as you are trying to make yourself out to be, you could've answerd your own question. Why should the government give more finacial support to our personal health care? Because we pay fucking taxes you dumbass. Not one fucking person I know is in support of this stupid war is which is doing us more harm than good. But EVERYONE wants and needs better healthcare. That's the reason we're paying taxes, and we're not getting that. So it is completely the government's fault.

And it's more like 20 years you ass. 12 grades, and then 8-12 years of medical schooling.

My bad on the Socialism thing with Austrailia, it was only guess.

Either way, the cost of health care here is crap, and there is no excuse for it.

And it's not the unwillingness to pay for my own personal healthcare, it's the INABILITY. Fool.

peace.

[C-Fan]

I haven't read the whole thread, but the short answer to your question of "why is health care so expensive in the USA" is that malpractice suits, and the fear of malpractice suits, combined with the profitability of privatized medecine (not having national health care) make it possible and profitable for costs to be higher. If

Referring just to costs...

Doctors:
They have to operate their office which costs a lot of money. A secretary (if they only have one that is) costs $20-30 an hour. They have rent to pay, electricity and water bills, business taxes, office supplies, malpractice insurance (which can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars), and then the government (at least in Canada) takes 50 % of what they make before they pay for their expenses. I.E that $30 dollar/hour secretary costs them $60/hour in pretax dollars. Add on to that the fact that they go to school for 8 years after university to become a specialist and you have your reason why it costs so much just for them to see you.

The operating costs of the clinic have almost nothing to do with the expensiveness of treatment. It all comes down to doctors protecting themselves from malpractice suits, as well as the profitability of the insurance industry for both doctors as well as the insurance industry itself.

[Slowsis]

This thread is pretty lame. Human health should come before all else.

If my back hurts, and I'm to poor to afford health issurance (which I am), and I disagree with what my military is doing around the world (which I do), then I can get a diagnosis for a tiny percentage of what Switch is quoting.

Who wants their taxes going toward guns and bombs?

Who wants their taxes going to the health of those less financially endowed?

Fuck this...I'm making a poll.

[ville]

But just for argument's sake, my car is 100% electric powered, and all the electricity I need to charge the car's battery is derived from the expensive solar panels I installed on the roof of my house. Now should the gov't be expected to buy my car for me? And how about those expensive solar panels?

They shouldn't buy you anything, even with healthcare it's only a discount They can support you using an electric car by having a lower tax and insurance cost when using one.

Actually, I've got a better idea: if, instead of paying more taxes I payed less taxes, I could more easily afford to insure myself, thus covering the expensive medical treatment.

Well, that's the thing, you can go either way. With more taxes (scaled to your income) there will be a more equal society because wealth will be distibuted more equally and everybody gets the same healthcare. By paying less taxes there will be some people with a lot of money and more people with less money. Some will be able to pay for their own healthcare and some people won't.

Also if the goverment payed for the healthcare for everybody starting from a baby, maybe they would be more healthy and require less healthcare on a longer term. That might actually cost less than treating the people when they get sick.