refraction and osis

setman · Post by **setman** » 10 Oct 2006 10:08

i was wondering if osis or refraction must have a spin. if i do osis without spin, will it be an osis ? (same with refraction).

mc · Post by mc » 10 Oct 2006 11:08

the definition on osis should be a bit loose, if you ask me. scoopy style or spinny style, I consider it an osis.

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 10 Oct 2006 12:01

IMO It really depends on if you like adds or not.
If you could care less about adds (and to a lesser extent thes) than do it however you like...
however don't expect to get much respect if you say, I hit a new 10 add, when the move isn't preformed "clean".
if you just want to bust, and look effortless and cool, regardless of adds or thes.. yada yada

mc · Post by mc » 11 Oct 2006 09:49

so what's the less clean osis, nate? scoopy or spinny?

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 11 Oct 2006 11:15

wooooo you must be serious considering you called me nate instead of nasty

wellllll since the adds of osis say, spin/xbody/delay, the traditionaly clean osis should be the spinny version and not the scoopy version. And also the "the police" ussualy get on peoples cases on big add torque tricks when there isn't enough spin.

I have many times started a thread about "who else doesn't care about adds/thes?" And I'd write out big long situations why good/inovative freestyle shouldn't be restricted to clean tricks, in the traditional sence of the meaning. But then I always remember I don't really care

so I never post it. I'm surprised my last post and this on made it to the "submit" stage!

grek · Post by **grek** » 11 Oct 2006 14:15

i do osis in a pretty scoopy style cuz of my ankles... but i like it this way... it looks much smoother imo, thoufh i get some offense from a friend of mine for it...

mc · Post by mc » 11 Oct 2006 15:46

well, mcNasty

I don't know about the "traditionally clean" osis, but the "traditionally performed and accepted as clean" osis has some scoop. Can't disagree with that.

The only person I've seen perform a downtime, blind-except-for-the-catch gyro clipper is dave clavens, some time ago.

Carlos · Post by **Carlos** » 20 Oct 2006 10:02

I like this posting and I glad you posted Nate b/c you made me think more about the osis. I usually do it spinny style but I'm going to concentrate on trying to see if I can master both...just as a little jab to people tripping just cause they perfer one over the other.

Oh, like the new pic Matt.

setman · Post by **setman** » 08 Nov 2006 06:17

what's refraction anywhy ?
does it have [spin][del][xbd] or [dex][del]xbd] ?

i believe, refraction has [spin][del][xbd] and motion has [dex][dex][spin][xbd][del]. so what's [dex][spin][xbd][del] (something like downtime nuclear (no plant) ss osis) ?

beenjammin · Post by **beenjammin** » 06 Dec 2006 11:23

I like to think of refraction as a leg over to same side osis. I usually set this from far clipper, but of course you shouldnt limit yourself to just one set type. Of course there is what is considered a clean way and an unclean way (if you want to look at it like that).
One way is to set the bag and kind of inside stall scoop/wrap thing.
The other way is to get your leg way up there and over the bag and actually performing an out to in dexterity before turning in to the osis and stalling the bag.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 06 Dec 2006 22:25

setman asked:

i believe, refraction has [spin][del][xbd] and motion has [dex][dex][spin][xbd][del]. so what's [dex][spin][xbd][del] (something like downtime nuclear (no plant) ss osis) ?

We used to call that move "Corkscrew" back in the day. This was before anyone was doing big exaggerated uptime dexes like nuclear. The dex was more like a big butterfly than a nuclear set, and so it was kind of tough to tell the difference between a corkscrew and a refraction. I think people didn't do the trick alot and it sort of just went away because of this ambiguity. It was kind of like Dada Curve... it was easy to do this trick very poorly, and thus draw criticism for it, and so the trick itself got a bad reputation and people just kind of avoided doing it entirely (perhaps in some cases because other freestylers were dismissive of it, or otherwise discouraged its use) in favor of tricks that were more obviously clean.

what's refraction anywhy ?
does it have [spin][del][xbd] or [dex][del]xbd] ?

Thats funny... I went to footbag dot org to see what that trick list had to say about it and... in the same entry it describes it one way as having ADDs in the categories of [bod] [xbd] and [del], and then underneath that says that the Job's notation for it is [del] [dex] [xbd]. Seems like nobody can quite decide what it is supposed to be...

I think this is sort of fundamental your original question of if osis and refraction must have spin, or is a scoopy osis not really an osis.

The way I see it (and I'm not totally certain about this, but I am currently engaged in some research in the matter, and just waiting to speak to a few more authorities on the subject...) is that Osis and Refraction probably both existed as tricks for years before there was the official ADD system of categorizing tricks. Then the ADD system was adopted and already existant tricks then become described by this new system that did not necessarily describe them 100% accurately, but just for the sake of having a certain definition of some very common tricks they take on that one definition. Years later again people who weren't there before the rules refer back to these rules and say something like:

wellllll since the adds of osis say, spin/xbody/delay, the traditionaly clean osis should be the spinny version and not the scoopy version.

(no offense meant, Nasty Nate, just using you as an example...) and it is assumed that the description of the trick is the instructions for doing the trick, when in fact the descripton of the trick is merely jerry-rigged to fit a trick that didn't really exactly conform to this new system now being used to classify pre-existing tricks (witness all the confusion surrounding rakes and pendulums being a [dex] and I think you'll see what I mean about how a new system of describing tricks did not necessarily really describle all tricks accurately, but the definition becomes accepted as a rule for the sake of having a convenient way to score a trick in competition).

To try once more to rephrase my point I'll refer to an old saying:

The map is not the territory.

by which I mean: a metaphorical representation of a concept is not the concept itself. A specific abstraction or reaction does not capture all facets of its source.

spin/xbody/delay is merely the metaphorical representation of the actual movement. It does not actually capture all the facets of that movement, and the specific metaphore was, probably, invented and applied to that movement years later, but was not invented solely to apply to that particular movement but in fact to many different kinds of movements, of which osis was just one, and so described it merely in general terms, not necessarily the most accurate. An osis does not have to be 100% spinny just because our prefered convenient metaphore says so.

Besides, scoopy looks cool.

beenjammin · Post by **beenjammin** » 29 Dec 2006 14:58

sort of just went away because of this ambiguity. It was kind of like Dada Curve... it was easy to do this trick very poorly, and thus draw criticism for it, and so the trick itself got a bad reputation and people just kind of avoided doing it entirely (perhaps in some cases because other freestylers were dismissive of it, or otherwise discouraged its use) in favor of tricks that were more obviously clean.

Very true Schneider. People who do not play footbag dont know that this trick is ambiguous and it looks cool as hell. Corkscrew away people, corkscrew away!

beenjammin · Post by **beenjammin** » 29 Dec 2006 14:59

Spinning refractions are also not to be underestimated!

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 29 Dec 2006 15:07

If you want to see what a refraction looks like, get the Monhollon Bros. Special from the Xmas calendar. Luis hits one good refraction to a zoom set at some point. You may also want to find the video of Byrin Wylie playing on a pier while his cousin hits golf balls into a lake. He hits some great refractions there.

beenjammin · Post by **beenjammin** » 30 Dec 2006 21:33

Luis Monhollon is a master of refraction. Almost as good as me!

kyle · Post by **kyle** » 20 Jan 2007 14:54

Wondering, can refraction be a component to another move - Like pixie refraction, or stepping refraction? So for for example would SET > IN [DEX] >> OP IN [DEX][SYMP] > OP refraction[BOD][DEL][XBOD] be a 6 add move or whould that count as two separate moves like pixie pendulum would.

setman · Post by **setman** » 21 Jan 2007 00:06

that would be single move.

Pyroman924 · Post by **Pyroman924** » 21 Jan 2007 09:58

I lways do my Refractions and Osis' with the spin. I just find that the release is much more consistent and in a place that's easy for me to work with. It just feels smoother too in my opinion...

setman · Post by **setman** » 25 Jan 2007 01:53

could someone get on tape refraction, corksrew and motion, please ?

Pyroman924 · Post by **Pyroman924** » 25 Jan 2007 16:15

http://fizzied.phasing.org/JanuaryShred.wmv

^^ My video. Refraction is at seconds 14-16. I don't have the others though.