My discoveries on lead.

david · Post by **david** » 18 Dec 2006 07:57

Hi,

For a long time lead has been used as a filler for the hacky sacks we know and love. MMM, I too have spent long nights cuddling up with a big toxic filled 32 panel by the fire, slowly caressing my finnish pride. You too have probably felt the perfect density and divine smoothness of lead, or as I like to effectionatley call it Pb (its chemical symbol).

Anyway, my mother does not share this love of the element #82. Ever since I started stitching legballs she has had only warnings to give me. And she's not alone. Planetfootbag only sells steel bags now, Lonn Irish used to care about it a lot, and people are pretty hesitant in general.

So anyway, I was pretty sick this week, so I walked down to University Health Services here in State College, PA. I got my cold diagnosed, and before I left his lovely artificially lit office, I sat the doctor down for a one on one. Man on man. I mean, man to man.

I told him I was one of the world famous hacky sackers in front of the student union. His eyes lit up as he fondly remembered days of ps whirls and blenders in the warmer months. Alright, I made that part up.

Anyway, I tell the doctor that we use lead in our 32 panel beanbags and that I was worried about going insane from the vapors and shit. I told him about my mom being all anti-lead and shit. So here's what my doctor had to say.

He said what I've known all along. It's only bad if you eat it. Or inhale the vapors. It won't do shit to you if your just hacking it around for a few hours every day. So he said I could keep using it without getting my Planetfootbag shorts in a bunch. So I think I will.

Now this makes me wonder why everyone else thinks lead is the devil in metal form. Is my doctor wrong? Does PlanetFootbag/felix/footfighter/ilja/lonn irish know things me and my medical professional do not?

For now I'm not going to go around eating lead, but I don't think I'll be as hesitant to throw some of the good old toxic shit in my hackies. Unless someone can provide some good counter evidence (like someone dying) I don't see much of a reason to stop using it.

I'd love to hear from the steel users of the world.

Hugs,

David Clavens

RawSko · Post by **RawSko** » 18 Dec 2006 08:27

my biggest worry is that a lead-filled bag could bleed, causing some death in somebody else's household. (perhaps pets or infants)

I'm not really against it, but this is the biggest reason I see for being careful with it.

Wumbo · Post by **Wumbo** » 18 Dec 2006 09:36

i came up to my brother with some lead and asked him if its toxic, and if i had to wash my hands after i touch it. "hmmm... lets see..", he said. he touched the beads with his finger, then sticked the finger back into his mouth like he would try a meal. "no, not toxic, id say...". i was like "WTF?!" but then he explained to me why its not toxic with the right care, and it made sense. weigh some beads on a balance. then touch it with your finger, and weigh it again. same size, same weight. the lead isnt staining to the hands, or even if, then not noticebly toxic. the lead is inside the bead, not around it. drinking coke is more toxic than touching lead, definetly.
lead will only be toxic if it gets in the bloodstream, like if you would try to eat it, or put it into a bleeding wound. but kicking it in a sack, comon...

Iron Clad Ben · Post by **Iron Clad Ben** » 18 Dec 2006 09:40

David, good post. I was curious as to whether there is a risk if a footbag gets wet, that lead could be absorbed into that water, and then subsequently absorbed through one's skin if one grabs the bag with their hand when it's wet.

First I checked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning

This is a good start. Then I googled "can lead be absorbed through human skin?" and found this:

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/L2347.htm

Which is a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for Lead. (Pb actually stands for Plumbum, which is what the Romans called it, because they used it for plumbing). Interestingly:

the MSDS wrote:Skin Contact:
Lead and lead compounds may be absorbed through the skin on prolonged exposure; the symptoms of lead poisoning described for ingestion exposure may occur. Contact over short periods may cause local irritation, redness and pain.

I wonder if as long as we're not experiencing skin irritation when we are washing our bags or handling wet bags (from rain, etc) if we are OK and the lead is not being absorbed into our skin. I hope so.

PegLegHolly · Post by **PegLegHolly** » 18 Dec 2006 09:45

i love lead bags.

if i die from lead poisoning, then i die a champ. i mean, what a way to go out. steve irwin died doing what he loves to do... why can't i?

no but seriously, i dont like the way steel feels inside a bag. of course i havent felt or played with a lot of combinations mixed with steel... but i dont like it.

(steel bags are a great alternative if you have kids and animals that eat stuff they arent supposed to... but i dont have kids and the only animals that will eat my bags are at the park where we shred... and i dont care if those dogs die)

ObArA'BaRs · Post by **ObArA'BaRs** » 18 Dec 2006 09:50

steel is way to light. 50 grams of steel in a bag feels light and very full to me.

mosher · Post by **mosher** » 18 Dec 2006 10:35

I don't use lead anymore and I really like my filler.

You have to get creative with the mix though, there isn't much room for anything else inside a golf-ballish sized bag.

Anyways, I think lead is more bad than good so I stopped using it.

I know the exposure isn't tons, but it's far more than nothing and I am working on reducing the number of scary toxins in my body lately.

I think a nice stainless steel can cover most bases.

dp · Post by dp » 18 Dec 2006 14:09

I did this enormous project on lead in artificial Christmas trees (they're made of PVC, PVC's gots da lead).

Anyways, lead poisoning is pretty bad. Lead compiles up in your body and can have long-term effects.

The way my project worked was I popped on latex gloves and recreated decorating a tree, and really, you don't touch a tree much when you're decorating a tree. Then I tested the glove for lead. On the older artificial Christmas trees (30-35 years old, the lead in PVC leaches out slowly as it gets older) had somewhere around 2.5 ppm (parts per million) of lead. That's half the dangerous level.

Eeks.

Think of when you're decorating an old artificial Christmas tree, thats not even made of lead, and you can get around half the dangerous amount on your hand. Then think about all that lead in a footbag rubbing around and breaking down and some of it turns into lead dust. That lead dust can easily get out of the bag and onto your hands if you're washing to even just messing around with the bag in your hand. Have you ever eaten after rubbing a footbag? Then you've probably gotten lead in you. Considering we're footbag players, we all mess around with our bags a lot...

You could have a good deal of lead in you.

david · Post by **david** » 18 Dec 2006 14:16

So wash your hands.

david

Pengu · Post by **Pengu** » 18 Dec 2006 14:38

Are you always diligent about washing your hands after handling a lead-filled bag or filling lead into a bag? If you are, good for you. I for one, am not. I'll make a bag and then pick up something to eat sometimes.

It's true that lead can't kill you unless you eat it. Johnny said you can bathe in lead-water and still be alright as long as you don't swallow any. However, I'd like to keep that possibility to a minimum, especially since we have a cat. We have leadshot to fill bags with if people really wanted them, but I like how my steel-filled bags play now so the less I handle lead, the better. I don't want that stuff accumulating in my liver.

HG · Post by HG » 18 Dec 2006 15:05

speaking of bathing in lead water. I did that once. I brought a bag to wash into the bathroom. As i was taking a bath, i put it into the warm water. Warm water realllllly gets that lead crap out of the inside of the bag. I mean REALLY. All the water in the tub turned dark grey.

And thats it. I laid there for about 10 more minutes. I probably drank some. Who knows. I think lead poisoning is a myth. And i really wanna bathe in mercury some day.

dp · Post by dp » 18 Dec 2006 15:31

I was going to add in if you wash your hands obviously you'll be fine, but I can't imagine remembering to wash my hands everytime I touch a lead footbag. It would be such a hassle sometimes.

david · Post by **david** » 18 Dec 2006 15:34

I wash my hands after I fill bags and after I kneed them for prolonged periods of time.

Ok so basically the conclusion is your cool if your cautious.

dc

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 18 Dec 2006 18:16

I like to use lead in my bags sometimes. It makes up for the added density and weight for smaller footbags to handle, where steel shot would only overfill the bag just a tad bit. Still, I use steel shot in most of my bags, and I only use lead whenever I feel that it would only contribute to the performance of the footbag that I'm stitching. That's all really.

I sometimes forget to wash my hands when I'm working with lead. In fact, I just finished a bag that has lead filling in it. I don't usually wash my hands whenever I knead any of my bags as well, unless I know for a fact that the one I'm kneading is grimey from shredding and the great outdoors. And yes, I know I'm going to die an excruciatingly painful death because of it.

But anyway, I like the crunchy feel that steel shot provides. If I could find something much more denser than zinc-plated steel shot, that would be splendid.

W.

brinard · Post by **brinard** » 18 Dec 2006 18:28

im bad about lead handleing. its everywhere in the house, so i cant do much about it. in the bed, on the bedside table, in the carpet, on the rug, surrounding my collection, and most importantly everywhere i go (backpack). (and in my gunits).

i dont care about leads health effects. obviously.

i open my lead zip baggie with my teeth, (hands full) and i touch lead too often.

leads advantages of greatness outweigh its negative health whatnot. i cant stand the bags pf puts out, or bags with pf filler. too light, bouncy, and not dense (too full). not dissing anyones stitiching, just filler.

im suprised i dont have poisoning by now, since i literally sleep touching lead.

i<3lead. fuck anything not chilled lead.

Oroza · Post by **Oroza** » 18 Dec 2006 23:15

HG wrote:i really wanna bathe in mercury some day.

Frank Zappa sorta did that as a child, his dad was a scientist and would give him mercury to play with, their was a layer of mercury all over his bedroom floor. he died of prostate cancer. related? idk.

atze · Post by **atze** » 19 Dec 2006 00:43

The Franklin Expedition set out to cartograph the North-West Passage in the 1840's, never to return. One of the reasons it supposedly failed was a new, revolutionary process to preserve food for long voyages: canning it. The major flaw of this process at the time: the cans were sealed with tin-solder (which contains a lot of lead). the lead leaked into the food and subsequently slowly poisoned the members of the expedition. The corpses that were later found, well preserved in ice, showed very high concentrations of lead.

There is no doubt about it: lead is toxic!! Water pipes used to be made out of lead. if that is still the case in your house you shouldn't be drinking tap water (especially not prepare food for babies with that water). why do you think unleaded fuel became such a hype?
fact is that lead accumulates in your body, in your bones, in the fat, your organs. and while the dose for an acute toxicity is very high (5-30g for instance for lead-acetate), chronic lead poisoning can occur if you regularly incorporate more than 1mg/day of lead (thats 0.001g, not something your average scale will show). The WHO (world health organisation) estimates the daily uptake of lead per person at 0.1-0.5mg/day, so that is already up to 1/2 of the dosis that can cause chronic lead poisoning.

Now, nobody on this forum knows how much lead can actually be absorbed through the skin when you knead your bags. or how much you incorporate if you don't wash your hands after kneading/filling your bags or if you take a bath with them. probably no one (doctor, chemist, etc.) will be able to tell us without running some tests.
My educated guess (i'm somewhat of a chemist) is that it is not much. No way near a dangerous level. however even if the $100 question at "who wants to be a millionaire" would be "can playing with lead footbags kill you?", i'd still waste all my jokers on it, that's how (un)sure i am about the whole issue.

so what do you do about dangers you cannot gauge? you avoid them if possible.

If you can choose from two faucets to drink from. one is made of lead, the other of stainless steel. which one would you drink from?

i think there are enough alternatives to lead out there to be able to avoid filling your bags with lead.

dp · Post by dp » 19 Dec 2006 13:04

Brain, perhaps as a favor to people around lead footbags, could you get your blood-lead level tested?

I think that'd be interesting, speccially since I think (i'm not sure) its possible to do so quite easily.

Mr.Brocka · Post by **Mr.Brocka** » 19 Dec 2006 16:58

well i used micro lead shots in my bags- mosher called it CRAZY SOFT- and they were.. BUT the fucking balls were so small that they turned into lead dust really fast- -8 grams a month.. after weekly washing.. so the refilling period was too intense..
but the bag performance was best ever..

PF filler is how to say it politely-- only good if u do bags larger than a golf ball.. and i mean larger..
i used it .. but the performance was not as good as i expected it..

lead poisonning from shredding with a leadshotfilled bag is BULLSHIT..

my recent alternative is midsized lead shot filler, or a combo with PFfiller..

talkning about being non toxic company sounds to me like a pseudo-anti-consumer-greenpeacemothurfucker-dummeddown-vegetarian-psychothriller.. just not funny at all.. especially when u get more lead into your system while walking through a carcrowded city than from a year long shred with a leadfilled bag..
and thats it..
with respect
Brocka

funklovesfootbag · Post by **funklovesfootbag** » 19 Dec 2006 18:13

You just need to build up a healthy tolerance to lead. I recommend sprinkling it on your cornflakes.

Seriously though, I don't touch the lead when I fill my bags, I just use a cup full of it and a funnel. Lead and seed bead are the best filler, and not dangerous IMO. You know there are 463 things in the rainforest that will give you cancer?