correct grammar

BenRea · Post by **BenRea** » 28 Mar 2007 10:26

Ian-

i just watched something on Oprah and there was some expert on grammer. she said it had nothing to do with the tense and that when you say "lay" you are refering to a person, you can never use it with objects. And "lie" is for objects, such as books, not people.

Switch Kicker · Post by **Switch Kicker** » 28 Mar 2007 12:17

BenRea wrote:Ian-

i just watched something on Oprah and there was some expert on grammer. she said it had nothing to do with the tense and that when you say "lay" you are refering to a person, you can never use it with objects. And "lie" is for objects, such as books, not people.

Funky backpack.

SlashC · Post by **SlashC** » 28 Mar 2007 13:00

I had an english quiz on this concept today.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 28 Mar 2007 15:07

Dyalan is an English PhD student, where is he?

He's writing his thesis

I checked out the original question a while back and saw that Max had answered it so I didn't really check back. Until now, I just wondered why people were still discussing it.

Ben is right with the lay and lie thing - you'll probably remember something similar with certain verbs from when you did German.

These days (at least here in Australia), when you study English at school or uni, they don't actually teach you grammar. You only really learn it when studying a foreign language so you can fully understand the differences. Similiarly alot of foreign speakers have better knowledge of English grammar because they've had to consciously learn all the rules and the exceptions, whereas alot of native speakers have just learnt to apply them almost subconsciously.

max · Post by **max** » 29 Mar 2007 00:20

dyalander wrote: These days (at least here in Australia), when you study English at school or uni, they don't actually teach you grammar. You only really learn it when studying a foreign language so you can fully understand the differences. Similiarly alot of foreign speakers have better knowledge of English grammar because they've had to consciously learn all the rules and the exceptions, whereas alot of native speakers have just learnt to apply them almost subconsciously.

Here's my take on the matter: I learned English in England (all English school), polished it in the US (French-American school) and perfected it in Australia (French school). During those twelve years I have no actual recollection of thouroughly learning English grammar, exceptions, rules etc..

Then I did my final school year in France in an all French school and I got spanked at the exams. Why? Because there where such questions as "underline the modal in the following sentences", "conjugate the following sentences to their preterite form" [or something]. Basically the English that was taught in French schools included many concepts that I had *never* heard of. So yes, despite speaking and writing better English than anyone else in the class, I only got average grades..

King Monkey · Post by **King Monkey** » 29 Mar 2007 05:21

So are you saying that if someone asked you, 'what did you do with the book?, you would say, 'i lie the book on the table'? Or did i misread?

And does anyone else agree that saying 'David and me thank you for letting us inspect your property' (or however it went) sounds much worse than 'David and I thank you...'?

Dyalan is right about Australian English, you only really learn the structures when you study foreign language. They must assume that because you can speak it, and write it, you understand it... probably not the best way to teach.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » 29 Mar 2007 17:56

When I type the following 4 sentences in word the grammar check tells me that 1. and 4. are both incorrect.

1. Thank you for giving David and I the opportunity to inspect your property.

2. Thank you for giving David and me the opportunity to inspect your property.

3. Thank you for letting David and I inspect your property.

4. Thank you for letting David and me inspect your property.

The reason I made this post originally was because we were writing a letter for work and according to correct grammar (confirmed by Max and Dyalan) we should have used sentence 2's grammar structure but everyone we asked to read the letter said it was incorrect.

So is it better to be right but everyone thinks it's wrong or to be wrong but everyone thinks it's right.

max · Post by **max** » 29 Mar 2007 23:08

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/ ... mar/meandi

not that the above is the definite authoritive source in English grammar... just don't trust Word too much

Switch Kicker · Post by **Switch Kicker** » 30 Mar 2007 12:30

Scott wrote:When I type the following 4 sentences in word the grammar check tells me that 1. and 4. are both incorrect.

1. Thank you for giving David and I the opportunity to inspect your property.

2. Thank you for giving David and me the opportunity to inspect your property.

3. Thank you for letting David and I inspect your property.

4. Thank you for letting David and me inspect your property.

The reason I made this post originally was because we were writing a letter for work and according to correct grammar (confirmed by Max and Dyalan) we should have used sentence 2's grammar structure but everyone we asked to read the letter said it was incorrect.

So is it better to be right but everyone thinks it's wrong or to be wrong but everyone thinks it's right.

Do what you think is right, despite what anyone else says. That's what I do. I do exactly what I think is right, despite the fact that everyone always thinks/says I'm wrong... always.

(Though I doubt anyone here would take advice from me on such a subject such as this.

lol)

Lackey82 · Post by **Lackey82** » 31 Mar 2007 18:06

The whole reason this debate exists is because since the very beginnings of the language back in the form of Proto Indo-European, what became English has steadily been losing various grammatical inflections, like the example here, case.

I is the nominative (subject) form of the pronoun, and me is the accusative (object) form. Pronouns, interestingly enough, are about the only part of English that preserves case in ANY way.

Technically, saying "David and me" in subject position would be like saying "Whom wants some cake?"
Just the same, saying "David and I" in object position would be like saying "Who did you talk to?"

Funny how the second one sounds right, huh? Like I said, English has been losing its enforcement and use of case for a long time, it's just that "who" is ahead of "I/me" in losing it. That's why it really doesn't matter anymore whether you say "who" or "whom."

My guess is that eventually, "me" will fall into disuse completely.