America's worst gun shooting

kyle · Post by **kyle** » 17 Apr 2007 22:19

Apparently post editing is disabled in this forum, but the professor's name was Liviu Librescu, holocaust survivor.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 18 Apr 2007 03:15

Pirate Man wrote:I've stopped watching television news because of all the bullshit on it. Like all that crap about Ann Nicole Smith. Jeremy, I guess I just assumed it was like this everywhere, but in the news in Austrailia you didn't get 3 weeks of straight coverage about Ann Nicole Smith's death?

I saw a Fox News show recently and they actually have 80 seconds where they talk about stuff outside of America. They don't even hide it, they call it "Around the World in 80 Seconds" or something like that.

Who's Anna Nicole Smith?

I'm just kidding, but no, she has been hardly mentioned in the news I watch. I guess it's important to choose what news you read/watch.

My news sources are as follows;

www.abc.net.au/news
www.theaustralian.com.au
www.newscientist.com
www.edge.org

I check those daily, in fact hourly would be a more honest assessment

.

I also read the local news paper daily (The Mercury - www.themercury.com.au) - which is largely a load of rubbish, but contains mainly local news, which is good to keep up with.

I also watch the SBS news most nights (www.worldnewsaustralia.com.au/)

If there is a story I'm interested in, I'll usually check google news on that story.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 18 Apr 2007 03:18

http://www.neahin.org/programs/scho...ics.htm#america

Interesting gun statistics

" American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)"

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 18 Apr 2007 10:09

Jeremy, that link isn't working for me.

sanuke okumatzu wrote:I remember when columbine happened, Marilyn Manson got blamed. I only wonder what metal artist[s] if any are going to get blamed this time? Guess they can't use that card because the gunman wasn't ' An alienated teen trying to fit in'.

He didn't seem like he was trying to fit in, but he was an "alienated teen" who was in college instead of high school. I was listening to the (I think it was BBC) news yesterday and they said he had been in trouble with the police two times before and he had been hospitalized because "they" (don't know who that is) thought he might commit suicide. He supposedly had been on anti-depression medication, and apparently wrote pretty dark and violent stories to turn in for creative writing.

CBSNews wrote:http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/ ... 8195.shtml
BLACKSBURG, Va., April 17, 2007
Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old senior at Virginia Tech, has been described as a loner. Cho committed suicide after killing 32 people and wounding 15 others in the deadliest shooting in U.S. history. (AP Photo/Virginia State Police)
...
News reports said that he may have been taking medication for depression, that he was becoming increasingly violent and erratic.
...
(CBS/AP) The gunman suspected of carrying out the Virginia Tech massacre that left 33 people dead was identified Tuesday as an English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counseling service.
...
"He was a loner, and we're having difficulty finding information about him," school spokesman Larry Hincker said.

The emerging portrait of Cho, the quiet loner whose writing sent out alarms, is one that fits almost to a "T" a U.S. Secret Service profile of the typical school shooter, reports CBS News correspondent Wyatt Andrews.

In a study done after the Columbine massacre, the Secret Service studied 37 school shootings to learn the patterns of the school-aged assassins.

Most school attacks, the report said, come from loners with some kind of grievance, adds Andrews. "Many attackers felt bullied," ...or persecuted by others....and "more than half had revenge as a motive."
...
In one of Cho's plays, titled "Richard McBeef," the main character named "John" is alone in his room throwing darts at a target covered with a picture of his stepfather, the title character. John says: "I hate him. Must kill Dick. Must kill Dick. Dick must die. Kill Dick."

Classmates say that on the first day of a British literature class last year, students took turns introducing themsleves. When it was Cho Seung-Hui's turn to speak, he said nothing.

The professor then looked at the sign-in sheet, and noticed that Cho had written a question mark instead of his name. The professor asked, "Is your name 'Question mark?"' A classmate, Julie Poole, says Cho offered little response.

She says he then spent much of the class sitting in the back of the room, wearing a hat and seldom participating.

Poole says, "We just really knew him as the question mark kid."

News reports said that Cho may have been taking medication for depression, that he was becoming increasingly violent and erratic, and that he left a note in his dorm in which he railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.

In an interview with the New York Times, Joe Aust, a sophomore and Cho's roommate, described Cho as a quiet loner who was unknown to him.

"He was my roommate," Joe Aust, 19, told the Times. "I didn't know him that well, though."

He added: "He was always really, really quiet and kind of weird, keeping to himself all the time," he said. "I tried to make conversation with him in August or so and he would just give one word answers and not try and carry on the conversation."
...
Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."

"There was some concern about him," Rude said. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."
...

I feel so bad for his family. I haven't read anything about them, but how horrific must it be to lose a son and also know that he has taken away so many other young lives? I can't imagine. The South Korean government is concerned that people in the USA will blame Koreans and there will be racial violence against them because of this massacre.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 18 Apr 2007 13:34

Anti-depressant medications, huh?

That seems to be a commonality in almost all mass shootings. Let's ban those poisons.

News is coming out about past mental problems, tons of warning signs that were ignored.

So quick, was everyone, to do the knee-jerk reaction and call to dis-arm the country.

------------------------

Really low, though is the gushing of forgiveness and feeling sorry for the shooter's family.

"Thanks a lot, shooter's family..... for coming to America, and bringing your son, Mr. Death, with you."

It does start to get tiring, reading endless stories of un-needed foreigners, butchering and killing, leaving many thousands of dead citizens in their wake every year.

I was hearing a list of victims from VT, and summaries of what they had done, and were accomplishing in their life. Really sad.

It does stand in stark contrast, to the useless, wasteful life of Mr. Cho.

I am sure his family will reap millions from selling their story, and be fawned over by our media.

-n

quadgun · Post by **quadgun** » 18 Apr 2007 14:24

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 18 Apr 2007 17:33

http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsa ... tm#america

HDS, I don't think I've ever seen anybody as morally abhorrent and with a worse sense of appropriateness as you.

quadgun · Post by **quadgun** » 18 Apr 2007 18:13

I skimmed through this article a little ... seems interesting
GUN CONTROL IN AUSTRALIA
What Has Happened, and How

I think it's also important to keep in mind the population of the United States and the population of Australia.

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 18 Apr 2007 19:02

I started writing some kind of response to Nathan, but I can't even bring myself to. The kind of worldview expressed in the last couple of threads just boggles my mind.

and that thing about "trying to take away one of the last rights we have" in another thread, boy, having guns sure kept the government from removing habeus corpus and tapping your phones whenever they want and not letting you fly if you have a name that SOUNDS like a "terrorist's".

you live in a country were you no longer have the right to hear the evidence against you in court, with secret torture prisons all over the world, but you can buy ASSAULT WEAPONS over the counter, so its a free country.

Just keep those fucking asians out so they can't kill any more people.

I probably shouldn't even post this cause its not helping anything, but I can't seem to stop myself. Damn internet, making me lose my self control. Although honestly, I'd probably say worse things in real life.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 19 Apr 2007 02:31

quadgun wrote:I skimmed through this article a little ... seems interesting
GUN CONTROL IN AUSTRALIA
What Has Happened, and How

I think it's also important to keep in mind the population of the United States and the population of Australia.

Of course what that report fails to mention is that the 1996 legislation was brought in specifically to reduce mass shootings like Port Arthur, and since the 1996 legislation there have been 0 mass shootings. In the decade leading up to Port Arthur (and including it) there were 11.

It is hard to argue that the law change did not have the effect it was put in place to have.

janis · Post by **janis** » 19 Apr 2007 03:05

quadgun wrote:I skimmed through this article a little ... seems interesting
GUN CONTROL IN AUSTRALIA
What Has Happened, and How

I think it's also important to keep in mind the population of the United States and the population of Australia.

That was a very biased report compiled by the pro-gun lobby. However despite the propaganda they publicize, the cold hard fact is that since the widespread banning of firearms in Australia there has been a huge decrease in firearm related deaths.

Personally I think the right to live in peace and without fear of violent death is far more important that holding on to this absurd notion of "the right to bear arms".

quadgun · Post by **quadgun** » 19 Apr 2007 05:51

ok
im scared of you guys

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 19 Apr 2007 06:30

I know its easy to forget, with the media always screaming about crime and violence, but crime rates have been dropping for decades. Not only that, but we're living in one of the safest, war free times thats ever existed.

Wars between industrialized countries are practically unheard of, and even the instances of ethnic cleansing / genocide that go on now are fairly well contained. They haven't stopped yet, but compared to fifty or a hundred years ago, we're in an incredibly peaceful time.

And compared to pre-industrialization, I mean, at one time england, spain and france were constantly at war. for hundreds of years in a row, even when actual "declarations of war" hadn't been made, hostilities continued.

And tribal warfare before the advent of agriculture - horrifically violent. It was on a much smaller, intertribal scale, but the relative proportion of the population that died was much much higher.

As for gun control, I can't think of any reason that people should be allowed to buy fucking assault rifles. I like rifles and shotguns, and I wouldn't want to live in a country where I couldn't buy one, but christ, how about a background check or a gun liscence? the gun show loophole in america is ridiculous. You don't let just anybody drive a car, so why can just anybody buy a pump action shotgun?

cammel · Post by **cammel** » 19 Apr 2007 09:08

Jeremy wrote: HDS, I don't think I've ever seen anybody as morally abhorrent and with a worse sense of appropriateness as you.

Word.

Nathan that post was disgusting and I hope in some way you were trying to be funny and failing instead of those being your actual views. I was going to go through and say why everything in that post was so wrong, but I think that everyone else here agrees so there is no need to explain.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 19 Apr 2007 13:59

To be clear, I think I started that topic because I think it's an incredible waste that people die in such a manner, and that it could have been prevented. If wanting to see people not die is an agenda, then yes, that's my agenda.

I think it's pretty significant that 2000 children in the US die from guns, 12 times more than the rest of the developed world put together.

Jeremy said this in the other thread I should not have posted in.

True, this possibly could have been prevented.

And blame must be heaped onto to those who contributed, not only Mr. Cho.

Ill post a list of "accomplices" later.

I would dispute that "2000 children" figure though, your own source:
http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsa ... m#children

said that "12 times" was the rate of deaths, among a narrow subgroup.
:
The source also said: " in 25 other industrialized countries combined."

NOT "ALL industrialized nations......

I also noticed that last particular statistic was from the centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Violence and gun crimes are "acts", not diseases.
CDC numbers should be questionable, at least.

-----------------------------------------------

Some British data we might learn from:
--------------------------
Following the Dunblane murders, the 1997 Firearm act, and its' amendment banned all, or nearly all handguns.

But according to BCS surveys and graphs, http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb0206.pdf

gun crime appeared to increase between 1994 and 2004/2005.

(see page 71, summary point, ".....first fall since 1997)

(see graph, page 72)
(see paragraph pg. 72)

The graphs , if you ignore the air-gun stuff, indicate that many types of gun crimes increased even after draconian control measures.

I will admit, that the Survey has some convoluted defintions of "firearm", but does sometimes specify handgun-only incidents. Further digging will be necessary.

I am afraid I will have to point out some more sobering realties about school shootings that will make me appear insensitive.

It is a shame, that the kind of thinking, and policymaking, that constantly seeks to take our guns.......is also the thinking and policymaking that makes guns and self-defense so vital to the people of our nation.

When our leaders fail us miserably on so many fronts, it is difficult to trust , and have confidence in their willingness to protect us.

That policymaking, though, can be discussed later, as it spans several topics

--------------------------------------

(.....) and be fawned over by our media.

Thanks NBC, I hope the ratings were worth it.

-n

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 20 Apr 2007 12:42

In addition to examining past data, we should step back and look to see if the whole thing was staged.

Did the shooter record his elaborately planned video and organize all his documents, between the 2 different shooting events of that day?

Effectively using a handgun to kill that many people so accurately seems very skillful, unless he was in very close proximity to the victims.

Here's a link to some juicy recent infowars pieces, ordered by shortest story first:

http://www.infowars.com/articles/2nd_am ... n_bush.htm
Second Amendment In Danger Under Anti-Gun Bush
Gun control advocates should love the President

excerpt:

In Reality Bush wanted to renew the assault weapons ban but was forced to let it expire when it became clear that he may not retain office in 2004 should he alienate core Republican voters.

At the time Bush was applauded by Democratic Senators Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer for his stance.

The assault weapons ban is just one of the numerous anti-gun positions taken by the Bush Administration. Additional examples include disarming airline pilots, forfeiting gun rights for misdemeanors, and arguing that the total DC gun ban is a reasonable restriction on the 2nd Amendment.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/2nd_am ... n_guns.htm
Hypocrite Kucinich Drafts Legislation To Ban Guns
Entertains notion that bloodthirsty Neo-Fascists carried out 9/11, then says we should hand over our only protection against them

OOPs ran out of time to link to the unbelieveable timelines, and Law enforcement inactions of the day.

-n

Frank_Sinatra · Post by **Frank_Sinatra** » 20 Apr 2007 13:32

HighDemonslayer wrote:I also noticed that last particular statistic was from the centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Violence and gun crimes are "acts", not diseases.
CDC numbers should be questionable, at least.

That's the single most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Congratulations. So if the name of the agency was "Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and Fatality Statistics" then their methodology would be valid?

HighDemonslayer wrote:It is a shame, that the kind of thinking, and policymaking, that constantly seeks to take our guns.......is also the thinking and policymaking that makes guns and self-defense so vital to the people of our nation.

A paranoid gun nut?

You are totally off base. Who the hell is trying to constantly take your guns? (I bet its George Soros) The trajectory of the gun control debate for the last several years has clearly been in favor of the gun lobby. The legislation that's been on the table has been about gun-show loopholes, enforcement of existing laws for background checks, creating mechanisms to make sure guns are lawfully sold, banning a very small and distinct group of weapons, etc. Even if all these things were passed, our rights to own guns would be intact, there would just be more built-in responsibility, applying only to a fraction of all arms sales. None of the facts are consistent with your theory that politicians in the US are scheming to take away your guns.

Are you being paid to shill like this? If so, then at least there's some kind of rational motive for your bizarre interpretation of reality. If not, then you're just a nut case.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 21 Apr 2007 12:02

HDS, sinking to new lows.

HighDemonslayer wrote: It does start to get tiring, reading endless stories of un-needed foreigners, butchering and killing, leaving many thousands of dead citizens in their wake every year.

Example?

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 21 Apr 2007 12:15

C-Fan wrote:HDS, sinking to new lows.

HighDemonslayer wrote: It does start to get tiring, reading endless stories of un-needed foreigners, butchering and killing, leaving many thousands of dead citizens in their wake every year.

Example?

http://www.counterpunch.org/clifford04202007.html

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 21 Apr 2007 16:37

Wow.

That may be the best post I've ever seen on modified. My hat is off to you Cameron. Wow.