Should Circle contest be an official IFPA event?

james · Post by **james** » 02 May 2007 11:27

because it is a true measure/competition of a player's ability, his whole game, right in front of you.

Shredinger Z · Post by **Shredinger Z** » 02 May 2007 12:32

It should be.. It's the best competition to measure in an objective way the
habilities of a shredder.

sanuke okumatzu · Post by **sanuke okumatzu** » 02 May 2007 14:10

>edit<

Too much of an inside joke for anyone else to get it I suppose, don't worry about it.

Post by **Zac Miley** » 02 May 2007 14:15

sanuke okumatzu wrote:footbag > hacky sack

What the hell are you talking about?

LEGOMAN · Post by **LEGOMAN** » 02 May 2007 14:41

Yes. It shows the true abilities of a player. I hit Full Symp Tap as a sick 1 but does that show my true abilities? No. There is no way in hell I could hit that mid string let alone flipside.

Circle contest makes you practice BS tricks and not only one side so you own at sick 1 and 3.

sanuke okumatzu · Post by **sanuke okumatzu** » 02 May 2007 14:52

LEGOMAN wrote:Yes. It shows the true abilities of a player. I hit Full Symp Tap as a sick 1 but does that show my true abilities? No. There is no way in hell I could hit that mid string let alone flipside.

Circle contest makes you practice BS tricks and not only one side so you own at sick 1 and 3.

Yeah, I agree completely. It's a hell of a lot harder to hit something on the spot mid-string than it is to hit a sick 1 or 3 that you've had who the hell knows how long to practice and make it perfect.

david · Post by **david** » 02 May 2007 14:53

It makes you repetitive and goes against risk taking. It encourages long stupid bail runs over a 15 contact run that might be harder. Drops are penalized too harsh.

If you had it, I'd do it, but I'm not gung ho.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 02 May 2007 17:54

I think there are judging issues. What exactly is the priority - amplitude, length, style, originality??? If someone hits a solid 10 fearless (just as an example, forget the adds, I just mean a 10 contact run with super hard links and super hard tricks) how many contacts non-fearless beats it? Obviously it would depend on the run, but the problem is there is no simple guiding principle on which to make the judgement. Subsequently I can see this comp becoming increasingly difficult to judge accurately.

Also I'd suggest that there are other improvements that could be made to the ifpa rules and regulations regarding freestyle competition that should be made before we add any new disciplines.

Jimpenske · Post by **Jimpenske** » 03 May 2007 09:07

Drops are penalized too harsh.

Not really. The U.S. Open was my first circle comp. I didn't really know how to play so I decided to do decent runs and seal them with a pass. I did this almost every run. You went harder but dropped almost every time. You won the competition. So I would say they didn't really penalize you for dropping. I think they look at difficulty, variety, and both sidedness. But who knows, it may be different with different judges.

james · Post by **james** » 03 May 2007 09:25

Come to think of it, when we did ours at GRASS I felt the time limit was too short, because two of the other players did like 30-40 contacts and I wasn't able to go over ten, so it always took longer to get to my turn and then it was over really fast. I didn't really get a chance, but I guess that's what happens when you're not consistant.
I think you should go hard in circle and not dumb your shred down for string length.

Judging circle is kind of weird because you're really just looking and ranking the players according to which is better in an overall sense. When I judged it was fairly easy to do this, you just get this general feeling of who's better, but if someone went hard with short runs and someone else had less difficulty with more contacts I'd go for the first guy.
DIFFICULTY over STRING LENGTH
bails do not impress me

Jorden · Post by **Jorden** » 03 May 2007 09:38

I say why not? Sure, people can abuse the system by doing long, boring runs to dwindle time left for the other players. They can play below their level if the people there don't know that player's level.

You can take advantage of the rules as much as any other freestyle event.

Routines, you can just do all the showy stuff, play to a funny song and hit PS whirl at the end. Crowd loves it.

Shred 30 you can add hunt like there's no tomorrow.
Sick1, you just learn a couple massive moves and master them.
Sick3, just learn some pdx whirling moves.

Doubles, just do toe stalls and lift your knees. hehe

I say Circle fits in fine with the other events.

JM

RawSko · Post by **RawSko** » 03 May 2007 10:34

I heart circle comp.

I love long strings, and I love hard shred, and I love style, and I love shuffle, and I love good form... you can do whatever you want in Circles. It will be judged accordingly. Maybe my oppinion will change as my ignorance deteriorates, but currently I stand firmly on the opening statement of this post.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 03 May 2007 10:53

If people doing long baily strings to have more bag time is a problem, how about timing each player and the one who's played the least gets the next turn? Sure, Jimmy Drops'em will get more turns, but I doubt that it'll make him look better, and it frees players up to do Sick 1s without fear that a drop will eat up a whole round. Also, impose a limit that says player X can only have the bag twice between any two of player Ys turns.

My answer is yes, but probably for next year. I love the circle comp, but there's no need to rush competition formats.

professor · Post by **professor** » 03 May 2007 11:27

Yes. But, I think the judging guidelines should be made more clear to the players/judges. At the U.S. Open, I thought drops were penalized and seals/passes were rewarded. When in reality it was more like drops were not penalized and passes were rewarded, but not as much as we were made to believe.

I think the way it was judged in the U.S. Open was the way it should have been judged, but that really wasn't the way it was explained. You should be judged on the tricks and runs you hit during the circle comp and not be penalized for drops, except for the fact that you have to pass the bag.

Maybe to help with the problem of people lowering their skill level and going long, we should have a couple of minutes where everyone tries hitting single tricks, a couple of minutes of short hard links, a couple of minutes of long runs, and finally a couple of minutes of anything you want. This way the judges can see a person's entire game. Maybe we don't have to do this for every stage, maybe just the finals, but I think it would be a cool idea to try.

mc · Post by mc » 03 May 2007 13:15

I've never "penalized" a drop when judging circle comp, but on the other hand, I would rate a player that ended most of their runs with a pass higher than I would rate a player that ended most of their runs with a drop, given very, very, very similar trick difficulty, run length, etc, do you see what I'm saying?

I am having a hard time answering the question posed by this topic because, at first glance at the question, I have to say that I don't really care. I love circle comp, I love seeing how people throw it down, whether or not they're going to go for those ballsy combos or if they play it safe. I agree with jorden's point of view.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 03 May 2007 18:19

When I judged it was fairly easy to do this, you just get this general feeling of who's better, but if someone went hard with short runs and someone else had less difficulty with more contacts I'd go for the first guy.
DIFFICULTY over STRING LENGTH

Just because it has been easy to judge up to now does not mean that trend will continue. As the sport goes on there will be more players at a higher level, and more players will all be very close to each other in skill level. Furthermore, given the huge variety of tricks available to players at any difficulty level, there is alot to consider. With this in mind any judged comp needs alot of structure to aid the decision making process. I can see circle comp becoming ridiculously close and difficult to call. You'll see players so close in skill levels the difference might be one move in a run of 30 contacts. How is a judge supposed to keep tabs on that?

If you say diffuculty over string length thats fine, but it needs to go into the rules - and it also needs to be more clearly defined. Obviously you can't just hit one massively difficult move and throw the bag on knowing nothing will beat it. If the next guy does a long enough run with enough difficulty he'd be better judged. So, what is "enough"? There needs to be some set of guidelines on this.

I think circle comp is a great innovation and clearly there are plenty of players who enjoy competing and watching, but I don't think it's viable as an official comp because into the future it will be impossible to judge. Personally I think the way to go is keep on as an unofficial event - and rather than bog the concept down in every little thing, it would be better to just select some good judges have them write up a brief for the comp to go along with the existing set of rules and let them judge to their individual preferences. Sure, it would be impossible to compare different events because the judging parameters would always be changing, but it would keep the spectacle of the event as it stands, and keeps the pressure on the judges to a managable level.

CIC flurry · Post by **CIC flurry** » 03 May 2007 21:13

I don't know what official means exactly. Circle Comp is fun, and we should do it.

As far as judging is concerned: it's subjective; sorta like a popularity contest. I don't think a long run of bails is judged as better than a good 10 contact run.

Since it's subjective (with general criteria) this means that different judges could rank differently. Is this a reason to not be official (whatever that means)? I think that the champ of this event is prop-worthy despite the subjectivity of judging.

blitz · Post by **blitz** » 05 May 2007 01:02

Truly the problems perceived with the Circle comp are not the fault of the format. They are the fault of a lacking judging standard.

It has always been Ianek's and my belief that the Circle should be as unrestrictive as possible, in terms of moves and style. But ideas about requirements are interesting. Really, I wish players would self-regulate: hit something short and sweet (sometimes), then pass, and see how the next player answers, not just long runs all the time. If it turns into a "who can go long every time" competition, we will have no choice but to impose restrictions, and then the solution is complicated. At Worlds' circle finals last year, there were many times when players went for single moves or short combos and they tried to one-up each other a lot. I think more of this type of interaction is in order. That's what energizes the crowd, and makes this format totally unique.

Jimpenske wrote:I decided to do decent runs and seal them with a pass. I did this almost every run.

First of all, those "decent" runs were outrageously intense and skillful, and based on that alone, you were dead even with Clavens. The dimension of ownership by sealing your runs should be considerably valued by judges, not just a little bonus. To me, it was a huge factor that you were sealing nearly every run. The Circle is not meant to be a technical competition alone. Leave that for the add hunters and shred calculators in the other competitions. Style (in many senses of the word) is a big factor in the Circle, and I hope that will be more and more apparent.

Thanks for reading,
eli

Skippy! · Post by **Skippy!** » 05 May 2007 06:31

Offtopic: Eli, your avatar pic thing makes you look like a Ken doll. Funny.

Ontopic: I like circle. I think it's super fun and is a true test of skill. I think it's also more interesting for amateur competitors. I mean, watching an intermediate shred 30 can't be all that fun (I don't remember if I've done one) and intermediate routines? Do they even exist? As an intermediate player I felt that the circle competition got EVERYBODY stoked (this is based on circle finals at KICKASS). Like, we weren't busting huge, but I think it was obvious that everyone was pushing everyone, and so the crowd really got into it, and it made me feel friggen awesome. Should it be sanctioned? I dunno...I think judging-wise, there could be some adjustments, but really, it's a super legitimate format and could ultimately be THE format for tourneys. I'll put myself down as a 'Yes'.

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