Slapping / Tapping. ...Why?!

[qphox]

Okay, I've got some major issues here.

First off, let's look at the Pixie and Fairy sets.

Pixie Mirage. That's a Smear, right? A Pixie opp Mirage. Seems obvious enough, seeing as the absence of an "ss" implies that the Mirage is done on the opposite side. This is always how I've understood how it works anyway.

Same goes for say...Fairy Drifter. Without saying "Fairy ss Drifter", it's automatically assumed that the Drifter is done with the other leg. It's just intuitive.

So what's the deal with Tapping and Slapping? Are these really necessary at all?

Quantum Mirage. To me, this is exactly the same as the Pixie Mirage up top. Why would I assume it to be an ss Mirage when there's no ss mentioned? So then, if that's the case, why not say, "Quantum ss Mirage" instead of "Slapping Mirage".

The exact same thing goes for Atomic Drifter. It's not ss if it doesn't say it is. Well hey look, it doesn't say it is! Therefore, not same side.

This bothered me the most when I read the thread Jeremy recently posted, the one that had him hitting the Quantum Paradon. Someone named it, "Slapping Paradon". Writing it this way makes NO SENSE. The fact that it's a Paradon already determines which leg it's set from and which does the dex. Quantum Paradon is just as clear as saying Slapping, and it doesn't require people to know yet another extranneous term.

So, after reading through this, if you're still convinced that the use of Slapping and Tapping is justifiable, then let me know why there aren't SS terms assigned to other sets, like Pixie and Fairy.

Basically, if Tapping and Slapping are necessary, we then need to have double the terms we already have for sets to have a name for "Set ss" and "Set opp". The idea of adding another term for each set to determine which side the Downtime component is on is just ridiculous. Do we need a new term for Sailing SS? How about Shooting SS...? Or how about even........Hey, this just occured to me! Symposium Slapping doesn't have a term assigned to it! Someone better get on that, so we can have something to say other than "Wonton SS".

[Jeremy]

I hate saying same side. I think that all sets should have a different name for same side and op side. We could modify slightly the definitions of a number to end up with - atomic/tapping quantum/slapping ducking/weaving diving/zulu blurry/stepping spinning/gyro and the only important ones left are pixie and fairy (which I thought could be named for ss dixie and dairy). Sure there would still be the odd set where saying ss night be neccessary but I also think it would simplify things a lot.

[qphox]

Okay, first of all, Ducking and Diving are not sets. They're a totally different concept, taken togehter with Zulu and Weaving.

Diving = Diving ss
Weaving = Ducking ss
Zulu = Diving opp
Ducking = Ducking opp

Secondly, Blurry and Stepping are not the equivalent of Opp Side and Same Side. Go find a "Definition of Blurry" thread, and you'll see why.

You seriously think that adding more apples to the basket of Footbag Terminology will "simplify things a lot" ? There's quite enough superfluous terms out there as it is, thank you very much.

[HackingGanesh]

CROTCH MEMBERS UNITE!

[jhibbs]

i've said this before but it was to prove an different point but here goes. technically, as you say, in many cases the same/op thing can be eliminated by the actual name (ie saying barfly as opposed to down double down) but when it gets to mirage, illusion, and some other guilts there seem to be some inconsistencies:
if i were to do a right toe set, then illusion with the same toe, (toe>sameOUT>op toe), you could say "same side illusion" but more would agree on fairy or "downtime" fairy. with downtime pixie (like symp pixie/toe same mirage style) this is even more of a common name. so then technically wouldnt pixie same mirage really be pixie set pixie (pixie-pixie/double pixie, etc)? and a pixie set same illusion a pixie fairy? (i thought of this after hitting it the other day). UNNECESSAIRILY CONFUSING.

if you read all that you either think all the tricks with a same side illusion should really be called "fairy", or youre confused, or can see how it would be confusing (especially to a newbie). this is why i believe the set should always have an alternate name for same side, rather than get into all this same/op nonsense. and i personally am in favor of blurry being stepping op and stepping being stepping same side. its very simple to say atomic butterfly and tapping butterfly, and from that, i can deduce easily Tapdown and Legbeater, or see the moves in my ehad even if i dont know what they are. so to answer your poll, no they arent "necessary", just very helpful.

and as for crotch, im also against the naming of new tricks just because they are a new collection of components (with the exception of major major breakthroughs), but i feel this is something that really does simplify rather than confuse.

[mc]

CROTCH Represent!

qphox, you should join the Coalition for the Reduction of Terminology Concerning Hack, or CROTCH. It's the term to end all others. It's more of a mindset that I think people should adopt regarding the unneccessary growing amount of terminology that's only going to grow more confusing... there's a string about it in general footbag, i think. but anyway, yea, I support you.

m@

[Colin]

CROTCH. It's the term to end all others.

I'd buy a t-shirt that says that. It'd be so baffling to EVERYONE.

[Iain]

typing it out is easy but saying it takes so much longer. I'd rather say pixie slapping symposium whirling swirl then pixie quantum sameside symposium whirling swirl! It saves me 2 sylables(sp?) which in shorter move names makes a difference.

[Jeremy]

...We could modify slightly the definitions of a number to end up with...

So nice of you to point out that they would need modifying - as I said - to have the definitions I thought they should have. Also nice of you to point out what ducking diving weaving and zulu mean - it must have been a complete coincidence that I grouped ducking ss with ducking os and diving ss with diving os in all my other groupings of sets for ss and os. Ok so not everybody calls them sets. I was told they were sets by Steve Goldberg. I also note that they are listed as components of sets at www.footbag.org and I understand (although perhaps Chris can confirm or deny this) that was because he didn't want to make the list four times bigger by adding ducking etc after every set. As steve explained to me, footbag moves are divided into uptime components (sets) and downtime components. A set is something that you can have a range of downtime components after it. For example pixie ducking set can have clipper, butterfly, mirage, osis etc. after it.

It is much simpler to have a name for near side or far side. For example suppose I tell you I hit a stepping clipper. To know what I hit, you would then have to come back and ask me if it was ss or os. Nothing in that name tells you what it is. If

...We could modify slightly the definitions of a number to end up with...

blurry for os and stepping for ss, then you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Jeremy]

Its not about adding more apples to the basket - most of the terms already exist anyway, it's about using definite language so there is no room for confusion.

[qphox]

Or! Frantic ss Symp Whirling Swirl.

Wowee.

Yea, I saw the CROTCH thread. I kinda...unofficially joined. That is, I read the thread and thought, "Yeah, I'll go for that," in my head.

I agree with CROTCH for the most part see, but a problem arises in this sport which is impossible to stop. As tricks become more complex, the technical names get longer. Also, subsequently, the more elements you cram into a trick, the more combinations you can have. That is, as number of elements increases, number of combinations of elements also increases.

So basically Omni, there's going to be long trick names anyway. If you think it's plausible to assign a "Common Name" (and I use this term very loosely) to every single one, you go right ahead and do that.

It's pretty much Grade 11 or 12 Math. Permutations and Combinations.


Note: One day I'm going to make a visual representation of this trend. Maybe I'll do it now, but there's a high degree of probability that I won't.

[Chris Holden]

You should change the poll from:

"I'm a newbie. This is all meaningless to me"
to
"I'm a newbie. This is important to me"

because it seems like such a n00b issue to care or worry about this.

[mc]

I agree with CROTCH for the most part see, but a problem arises in this sport which is impossible to stop. As tricks become more complex, the technical names get longer. Also, subsequently, the more elements you cram into a trick, the more combinations you can have. That is, as number of elements increases, number of combinations of elements also increases.

so where's the problem? saying things in long technical names, in the long run, would make much more sense, because you learn a set of base terminology that applies to EVERYTHING, and you just use that. just because it's longer doesn't make it more difficult...

if you can understand 2 + 2 = 4, then you can understand that 2+3+6+3+4+5 = 23. it's all basic, just different lengths.

m@

p.s.: how many of you checked my math ?

[QuantumBalance]

boo your crotch
fuck crotch
and i hate your crotch

also

crotch is dirty!

and also.. DAIRY!

edit: but i love the people in crotch.. like qphox!

[Johnny]

Matt. I checked your math. Im so sorry.

[qphox]

so where's the problem? saying things in long technical names, in the long run, would make much more sense, because you learn a set of base terminology that applies to EVERYTHING, and you just use that. just because it's longer doesn't make it more difficult...

No, obviously I wasn't clear. I was saying that as you squeeze more elements into one trick, it results in so many more combinations of said elements.

Pixie Atomic Diving Mirage. This is our "BASE" trick, okay? So, let's change one thing in this trick.

Fairy Atomic Diving Mirage
Pixie Quantum Diving Mirage
Pixie Atomic Ducking Mirage
Pixie Atomic Zulu Mirage
Pixie Atomic Weaving Mirage
Pixie Atomic Diving Illusion
Pixie Atomic Diving Legover
Pixie Atomic Diving Pickup
Pixie Atomic Diving DLO
Pixie Atomic Diving Butterfly
Pixie Atomic Diving DOD
Pixie Atomic Diving Drifter
Pixie Atomic Diving Swirl
...etc.

See, there's a load. And that's not even a list near completion, mainly because there's a load of downtime components, and then more if you take into account the possibility of Symposium Dexes.

So, do we want a name for all of these? I sure don't.

I'm on your side Matt. Technical naming is the way to go.


But still, I'm curious who coined the terms Slapping and Tapping in the first place, and why they found them to be necessary while leaving Fairy and Pixie alone.

[Iain]

i can tell u where tapping came from. Atomic ss mirage is called a tap...
But stop trying to change the system. It works. If someone says one of those moves u listed, will u know what trick it is. YES! so it works.

[qphox]

I totally missed Jeremy's posts there, seeing as he did them in between my reading and replaying last time. I just read them now.


Hm, I still don't like the idea of "Pixie Ducking" as a set. Just as I don't like "Pixie Spinning" as a set. Oh well. I suppose it kinda makes sense as an uptime component. I don't know.

See Jeremy, but let's look at the Set List.

Pixie
Fairy
Nuclear
Stepping
Quantum
Slapping
Bubba
Atomic
Tapping
Terraging
Barraging
Sailing
Blurry <--involves pdx
Frantic
Flailing
Fairy Atomic
Shooting
Furious <---involves pdx

Swirling
Whirling
Blazing
Scattered
Shattered
Pogo
Blistering


Finchy
Pixie Pinching
Twisted <--- involves pdx
Snapping
Arctic

Okay, Phew. Those are the sets involving dexterity, as listed on the Footbag.org set list.

Its not about adding more apples to the basket - most of the terms already exist anyway...

It's exactly about adding more apples to the basket. The only sets that currently have terms for ss and opp components are displayed in Bold. That's 30 sets in total (27 if you don't count the pdx ones), and of those, 4 are accompanied by ss names. Slapping, Tappping, Whirling and Scattered.

You really want 19 more set names out there? Why don't people just say, "Atomic ss Drifter" ? If you truly find you're too busy to say "Same Side", say "Ess Ess". Maybe you'll find it takes less energy.

[Iain]

Blurry <--involves pdx

may i remind u blurry has nothing to do with paradox. Just most of the blurry moves are paradox as it is the easiest. Blurry is simply doing an in-out dexterity with both legs. Thats y moves such as bedwetter aren't blurry.

[Rob]

Blurry <--involves pdx

may i remind u blurry has nothing to do with paradox. Just most of the blurry moves are paradox as it is the easiest. Blurry is simply doing an in-out dexterity with both legs. Thats y moves such as bedwetter aren't blurry.

May I remind you that the official definition of blurry involves stepping paradox. I think there's some pish posh about each leg doing an in to out dexterity as well, but I'm not 100% on that.

I think Blurry should mean stepping op, but as far as I know it doesn't.