Self Serving

[dizzy]

Good to see you have the courage to let us know who you are.

Ain't got nothin' to do with courage. This is an anonymous board. There's no requirement to even be registered in this forum. Who are you? Jeremy? Is that you real name?

because I said I would politly tell him to shove it.

Haha! that's funny

Kenny does not own the sport of footbag

Yes, he does.

and he has no real control over its direction.

Yes, he does.

Sure more people would listen to him than would listen to someone like me,

You got that right!! lol

but I don't believe that gives him a right to order other people about,

He has that right.

I feel a little awkward using Kenny as an example in all this because I have never met him, have no idea what he is like and don't want to disrespect him by putting words into his mouth or something similar.

Well, nicely said, but it's pretty much too late for that Of course Kenny isn't god; but he is the best case study here because he (and Rippin' etc.) invented what you do and he is steadfastly against self serving.

Clearly the courtesy toss is not a fundamental aspect of footbag at all.

You don't have a very good grasp on footbag history then.

Lots of people play footbag, however a majority (at least at this site) self serve.

And you determined this from the above poll? Laugh Fucking Out Loud!! Lots of people self serve. Lots of people die from cancer too. We still look for a cure.

Again what we see here is a view that those that created the sport, own the sport.

It's not a question of ownership. It's a question of respect. If you self serve you're NOT PLAYING FOOTBAG. You're doing a weird genetic offshoot that's inbred a few too many times and relies too much on fucking forums to determine what the game is about.

Sure selfserving footbag is not what they intended, but they have no right to tell the rest of us what we can and cannot do

Maybe not. But they sure as hell is cold have the right to tell you that you aren't playing the game *they invented* the way it is meant to be played. And you have <b>no right</b> to say jack shit to them about that, wherever or whoever you think you are.

Sure, you could be like "no, I don't like your rules. I'm going to self serve now." That's kinda like getting into a basketball game with Micheal Jordon and Larry Bird and saying "I don't think I like this "No Travelling" thing. I'm gonna run around and you guys just *try* and guard me.. okay?"

- only what they think we should and shouldn't do.

Apparently they'd get told to shove it if they did so. At least it would be "polite". They'd sure respect you for that.

As for courtesy tossing being "karmic law", as far as I can see, this means that if you give someone a courtesy toss, someone else will give one to you. But using this logic, if you selfserve, someone else will self serve too. I have no problem with this.[\quote]

Logic escapes your grasp on this topic. By your "logic" stealing would be okay because if you stole from someone, they could just steal it back from you and you'd be okay with that.
Oh yeah? When's that?
You're joking right? How can you be like that? I mean, "You should try to make sure the bag keeps moving around the circle??" How exactly is that accomplished when everyone self serves? Is it a matter of extremes? That doesn't make sense. Who determines when's enough? You? How many self serves is "okay" and where did you pull that number out from?

The only logical end to "keeping the bag moving" is that no self serves. No one ends up with more bag time. Time it. The self servers get more bag time because they're selfish.
Dude. I don't what shit is like down in Australia, but where I come from, it's SO NOT COOL to talk shit about people behind their backs. It's generally considered to be the opposite of polite.
That's great you can decide what "practical purpose" is for the rest of us. *Obviously* a no self serving rule "serves" an extremely practical and fundamental purpose. It goes beyond practicality.
Yeah, for you maybe. Because you're hogging the bag. For me standing over here watching you play, it ain't doin' much for my game. That was a GREAT example of how to TRY a move 3 times... THANKS!
Yup. My legs stay way fresher when I'm standing around waiting for all 3 of the other players in the circle to self fucking serve 3 times each. I could go get a snack and some refreshments and take some video(yeah, that'd be fun to watch later -- oh look she tried it AGAIN!!).... maybe do some chores or something... cut my finger nails. Oh, it's my turn? coooool, now it's ALL ABOUT ME for the next twenty five minutes!!

Right. So don't infringe on my freedom with your selfish BS. Freedom isn't free. You have to earn it by respecting other people's freedom first.

Jeremy, I went back through and read some of your other posts and you seem like you've got your head screwed on pretty good. I totally agree with lots of shit you say. I'm sorry we had this argument. Be happy - I sure am

[NotHisRealName]

For me, it can be hard passing on the bag when you've suddenly been inspired to hit something, only to drop it.
It's hard becase I love this sport so damn much and just don't want to give up the bag. But then I think of the next person in the circle... They probably want it too. In fact, I know they do. You can see it in their eyes... Like a pitbull with a baby in it's sights. And they want a go as much as I do. But... I've just had my go and I've blown it.
As much as I hate to do it, I will pass the bag on.

Those who kick with me know that this is not always the case. Self-serving is like a cancer in this sport (I believe someone has already stated that fact... I'm just backing it up), and every now and again I fall off the wagon there. But I limit my self serving to occasions when someone suggests I have another go at a big trick, or when I want to try something and ask if I may, first. Other than that, if I get impatient with a circle (ie, can't wait for the bag to get around), then I'll break off and have a wee kick on my own.

Self-serving is a disease - like alcoholism. It's only when we can accept that we have a problem that we can begin to over come it.

[QuantumBalance]

kiser wrote:

"For me, it can be hard passing on the bag when you've suddenly been inspired to hit something, only to drop it.
It's hard becase I love this sport so damn much and just don't want to give up the bag. But then I think of the next person in the circle... They probably want it too. In fact, I know they do. You can see it in their eyes... Like a pitbull with a baby in it's sights. And they want a go as much as I do. But... I've just had my go and I've blown it.
As much as I hate to do it, I will pass the bag on.
"

sam responds:

reading this made me not want to self serve

[Guest]

I've just had my go and I've blown it.
As much as I hate to do it, I will pass the bag on.

Well said.

It's a patience thing.

It's a discipline thing.

Nobody likes giving up the bag when they botch they're first try. It's *easy* to self serve. It's fast and most of the time no one will notice, let alone say anything.

Instead of having a knee jerk reaction to the restriction of "your freedom", *really* think about it for more than a second.

What do you loose by being patient and polite? Try it and you may find that not only do you not loose anything from your game, but in fact you will feel stronger and more confident in your abilities and you will be able to play for longer and get more enjoyment out of it. Playing in a circle in which no one self serves (and only rarely accept rebates -- if at all) is MORE FUN -- IF you give it a chance. "Trying it" for a session won't cut it. Make it habit.

You will find yourself WAY more approachable to "hacky sackers" who will absolutely feel less initimidated by your courtesy and obvious care for the energy of the circle. Isn't that alot of what makes the game cool? The flow? Care more about the flow than about whether or not you hit "that combo".

The irony is that the very reason why many people "like" self serving is the very same reason why the no self serves rule is there.

[Jeremy]

I'm amazed at that post from you allan. I had you down as a mature and sensible person. Sure, there's always one person who just doesn't understand the word "discussion", but my opinion of you was a lot higher than that. I also understood that you call yourself an anarchist. You are obviously not the same kind of anarchist that I am - I believe that nobody should have power or control over another person. I was lead to believe that this view was fundamental to political anarchism. Infact I was lead to believe that this was - to put it in one sentence - what anarchism is.

My real name is Jeremy takashi owheel. I have no problem with telling everyone that - I stand by my views and would never be ashamed of them.

I would like a response from Kenny about my example of him being offensive - rather than yours, because I'm sure that he can understand what I was saying - ie that the rules of the circle are more important than anything else - for example if you were in a cirlcle of four people who always played together and yourself, who had never played with them, and they had the rule that you weren't allowed to speak in the circle - would you
a) blatently break the rule
b) follow the rule
c) not kick in that circle.
It seems to me that almost everybody would do b or c, and that's what I was talking about with kenny and self serving - that is, we wouldn't change the rules just for him.

I am truely amazed that you think that kenny owns the sport of footbag and that were he to declare, for example, that footbag couldn't be played while listening to eminem, that you would go along with that.

I believe that my grasp of footbag history is very solid, however as I'm sure you realised, I don't believe courtesy tossing is fundamental to footbag because the majority of footbaggers self serve. But then you don't regard self servers as footbaggers. Wow, none of the Czechs are real footbaggers. Vasek Klouda - two time World Footbag Champion doesn't even play footbag. Thanks for clearing that Allan.

And why do I have no right to express my views to the people who invented the sport? If someone invented glasses made especially to stop you going blind from looking directly into the sun - would you tell them what you thought of their invention or would you have no right to do that? I believe that I, and everybody else have the right to express their views on everything. Were I to try to play basketball with Micheal Jordon and Larry Bird without travelling then they would be well within their rights not to play, just as I said - if kenny played with people who were self serving - he could either follow the rules of that circle, or not play - if I played in Kenny's circle, I would either not self serve, or I wouldn't play.

As for my comments about the karmic law, thanks for giving me another reason why it is ridiculous. I don't know if you noticed but I was saying that kind of argument was ridiculous, and as far as I can see, you were backing it up - going by the immaturity of your post, I doubt that that was your goal.

when do you not self serve? When in a circle of non selfservers or whatever's appropriate for the circle. I mean it really depends on so many things. For example - you've been playing for 5 hours, there are only two of you left, all you are trying to do is hit one particular 3 string combo. In this situation you can probably self serve a lot. Example two - there are 5 people in the circle - you a run of 15 and drop - you probably shouldn't self serve again. It's all about common sense and trying to use your brian I guess.

In terms of keeping the bag moving, is there any difference between hitting a 30 move run and hitting a two move run, self serving and hitting a 25 move run (assuming the time taken for both is equal - it does take some time to selfserve). If your main goal is to keep the footbag moving, perhaps you should introduce the rule that you aren't allowed to do anymore than one trick.

As for talking behind peoples backs - you've obviously taken that quote out of context, and I'm sure you're aware of that. I hope it made you feel big.

Of course I decided if I think it has a practicle purpose or not - I would never let someone else tell me what I think. Do you really believe that that would be a good thing if people let other people tell them what to think. If you attempted to make a mature and serious argument for why there was a practicle purpose to not selfserving, I would gladly listen.

there is clearly a differnce between hogging the bag and not selfserving - and the only practicallity I can see for not selfserving is that it makes hogging the bag impossible, but if you respect the other people in the circle, this wouldn't be a problem.

Finally, I'm glad you think I've got my headscrewd on properly, I must say that up until reading that post, I had you down as probably my biggest footbag hero (or at least in my top three), and I'm very sorry that we've had this argument and that I've been so disillusioned. However I make no apologies for what I say, I never hold my opinions back and I always try to be as honest as possible.

[ImaginaryDemons]

I think you should be understanding if someone self-serves...as long as it's not everytime. Especially if you are a more capable footbag player. If they are struggling to hit a move, they keep trying, but can't hit it, then they should be allowed to try. But if they aren't even close, and it's obvious they will not hit it that day, then mabey they shouldn't self-serve. I would not mind if it was once, or twice, but ever time is not acceptable.

And if you want to hit a trick so much, why not go off to the side and school it by yourself?

[Cloud]

With my friends, every time you self serve, you get hit (pelted) with the footbag. Ahhh, it hurts sometimes. Especially when it gets you in the neck.

[Guest]

I'm just gonna add what happens in our circles:

Seeing as most of our club aren't hugely great at producing massive strings (average string for a circle would be about 4-5 moves) then for us we consider it fine to self serve - to an extent. If you hit a 4-5 string combo, then most people will pass it on out of politeness, but if you have just received the bag and try a killer opening move and don't hit it, then by all means its expected that you will pick it up and try it again. This usually happens 3-4 times (for trying a single trick) and then a pass is made. As the circle gets older (like after 3 hours of whatever) and people get more tired, self serving increases because generally by that time we all have a new move in our mind that we want to conquer before the day is over. We are all fine with this, its just the way our circle plays. We dont get angry or impatient or whatever with other people if they follow this general formula. However, if i walked into a non-self-serving circle, i would respect their rules and not self serve.

[MJK]

Allan and Jeremy: Please please don't turn this into an argument. Arguments are about %1 as productive as cheapshot-free discussions.

When Sunil came to play with our club, we self-served, because we always did. Sunil made a comment, and we stopped for the day, because:

a) he was the guest, and
b) we all knew that self-serving is crap, but we were newbs and didn't mind. Since someone DID mind, we stopped.

Self-serving in a circle, IMO, is like moving pool balls out of your way to make a shot. It's absurd, it's against the rules, and it's really stupid, but if all of the players are okay with it, it's fine. However, it's not about majority, it's about following the rules. If one person minds, you don't do it. (I'd rather have used a 3-or-more-person example, but I'm tired. Fuck you. )

[ShredPirate]

If I'm in a circle with people I never kicked with before, OR at a tournament/jam, OR if the others don't self serve, then I most likely won't self serve.

If I'm in a circle that's not formal, OR the other players self serve, then these are my rules for self serving:

-if I hit more than 1 move, I won't self serve.
-I'll never self serve a second time (only if i miss my first move, on my first attempt).

This is pretty much how I've done it since I can remember. It's got rules, so the self-serving is consistent. And if everyone followed these rules then the self serving arguments would all be over FOREVER.

[McBane]

I like Chris' rules a lot. They make the most sense to me.
When I'm with someone in my crew, and it's just the two of us shredding, there really are no rules for self serving. We accept it- we just don't abuse it.

[Tuukka]

Before starting to play with my friends we decide if our circle is a training circle or real shred circle.
When having a training circle few selfserves are allowed, but when shredding seriously ->no selfserves.

[Jeremy]

Yeah I like Chris' rules too. We don't have any rules but rather guidlines, that some of us stick to more than others. It depends on your ability though - except in special circumstances (like someone asks me to hit superfly and then says you can have ten trys) we don't sef serve more than twice, if you bail tosomething below your ability, you either have to hit a trick above your normal ability or pass it on. But because we respect each other - we don't mention these rules and just follow them. If for some reason someone breaks one of them, we don't comment and I don't think it bothers us much. I must say too that I have no problem watching someone self serve five times in a row trying to hit a move they've never hit before, and then seeing them hit it. Hitting new moves is almost the best thing about footbag.

[dizzy]

I'm amazed at that post from you allan I had you down as a mature and sensible person.

Thanks.

I'm sorry to see your opinion has changed based on one post on a bloody forum where you have little idea of how I intone my words and take them with about as much offense as you possibly could. This is partly why I stopped posting here for so long -- because no one seems to be able to argue and not get all offended.

I figured because I can argue with my friends in person and still call them my friends that I could do it here too without being called immature and condescending. I guess all this respect that I get for my playing ability doesn't carry over anywhere else. I was your "one of your favorites" -- now I'm immature and stupid for having an opinion you disagree with. Hmmm.

Perhaps this is a sensitive issue. I know I feel pretty strongly about it. I feel pretty strongly that you people you who say it's "okay" to self serve are wrong. Of course there are certain situations that make self serving impossible to avoid, but that doesn't justify it beyond those situations.

If you try to justify self serving, I'll argue with you about it. I'll tell you your crazy. I'll tell you you're a crack addict. I tell you these things with a big smile on my face because I like to argue with my friends and call them stupid names and.... you get the point. I do try to make that relatively clear in my posts, but some of you seem incapable of discerning sarcasm or humour where it is obvious.

What I'm trying to accomplish here is to make it very clear that there are many people, many top players and hacky sackers alike, who feel the same way I do; despite the "poll" at the top of the page. These "polls" on these discussion boards are so fucking useless. They don't guage anything.

I don't care what you say or believe -- not self serving IS FUNDAMENTAL to the game of footbag. Maybe that aspect is evolving (or degrading as the case may be) into something else, but it's a rule and a part of hacky sack that's been around since it was invented, thus making it fundamental. You can't change that.

I also understood that you call yourself an anarchist.

I will ask you not to put words in my mouth.

Once and for all, I believe one of human kinds best chances for long term survival on this planet invloves a system known as Anarcho Syndicalism (http://www.anarchosyndicalism.org/ -- I point out that this web sites' mailing lists are moderated). To the best of my knowledge, it is a Union based anarchy that believes in valid forms of structure and rules that benefit society. I heard about it from Noam Chomsky.

My grasp of this topic is limited as the concepts invloved in anarchy are never as simple as you would make them out to be. Anarchy means many things to many people, so please don't dub your interpretation of it onto my "personality" on this board based on a few things I've typed and represent it as though it is what I believe too. Thanks.

Infact I was lead to believe that this was - to put it in one sentence - what anarchism is.

Well, you were lead to believe a simplistic and myopic version of one of the most widely misunderstood political systems around. The meaning of the word anarchy has changed a lot over the years and contains within it several schools of thought. As with most things, it cannot be summed up so easily.

My real name is Jeremy takashi owheel. I have no problem with telling everyone that - I stand by my views and would never be ashamed of them.

My name is Allan Kenneth Edward Haggett and I haven't been posting under "Guest" to hide my identity; though admitedly it was more fun to not "say" who I was. Like I said, it's not about courage. It doesn't take any "courage" to post anything on these boards.

If you are judging people based on their posts, you need a serious reality check. Lighten up.

I am truely amazed that you think that kenny owns the sport of footbag

Gosh. I'm amazed you thought I was *really* serious. I have more than a lot of respect for Ken Shults and would not kick to eminem if he told me not to But Kenny wouldn't be so silly. He only enforces rules that are seriously fundamental to the game and I stand behind him in doing so. If you wouldn't want to "change the rules" of "your" circle for Kenny, then in my opinion that's pretty narrow, lame and disrespectful of you.

You wouldn't be doing what you do without Kenny -- the "rules" you speak of, the whole concept of freestyle "shred" is primarily Kenny's creation and for you to assume that the status quo for violation of those rules is law and you won't change them "even for Kenny Shults" is more controlling and restrictive than anyone asking you not to SS.

I believe that my grasp of footbag history is very solid, however as I'm sure you realised, I don't believe courtesy tossing is fundamental to footbag because the majority of footbaggers self serve.

And I believe this is incredibly flawed logic. The majority of footbaggers do not, in actuality, self serve. Been to lots of tournaments have you? Know "how it is" do you?

Don't hate me for my view. I'm just saying it. It wouldn't stop me from giving you a big hug if we ever meet and I know you're not so close minded as to take this one issue and blow it up into something that would come between us being friends in a non-virtual world.

But then you don't regard self servers as footbaggers.

OMGosh. It's my fault for posting something that could be so easily taken so literally. I'm sorry. Geeeez.

And why do I have no right to express my views to the people who invented the sport?

Telling them to "shove it" is hardly "exressing your view". If you had said that you would actively engage Kenny in a calm, rational debate on why self serving is okay with you, then I'd treat that with respect. But you said you'd tell him to shove it ("politely" - Whatever). I know (not well enough) Kenny personally and respect him more than I can express. Reading your casual contempt for such a great man (and indeed our game as a whole) got my back up a little. I stand by that.

If someone invented glasses made especially to stop you going blind from looking directly into the sun

I've got this pair of Oakley's and I swear I can look right at the sun for a while and not go blind.

Were I to try to play basketball with Micheal Jordon and Larry Bird without travelling then they would be well within their rights not to play,

And you'd be missing the opportunity to PLAY BASKETBALL WITH MICHEAL JORDAN AND LARRY BIRD because why???

just as I said - if kenny played with people who were self serving - he could either follow the rules of that circle, or not play

Yup, he probably wouldn't play. Now who's loss would that be?

if I played in Kenny's circle, I would either not self serve, or I wouldn't play.

I think you'd be doing so for the wrong reason. Not SS'ing because of respect for the other people in the circle is only part of the reason why not SS'ing is a good thing. As importantly, you shouldn't self serve out of respect for yourself.

As for my comments about the karmic law, thanks for giving me another reason why it is ridiculous.

I happen to believe in karma. It is not ridiculous. It makes quite a lot of sense actually. Don't agree? Cool. Please stop making everything that you don't agree with "ridiculous".

I don't know if you noticed but I was saying that kind of argument was ridiculous, and as far as I can see, you were backing it up - going by the immaturity of your post, I doubt that that was your goal.

Ummm, yeah, okay.....

when do you not self serve? When in a circle of non selfservers or whatever's appropriate for the circle.

So you're comfortable making that call. How exactly do you determine if some one is against self serving? Wouldn't they get told to shove it for expressing that opinion? Wouldn't you get into an argument over it and end up not playing with each other? How cool is that?

My point is that SS'ing is selfish. YOU decide whether or not it's "appropriate" and there's no standard for knowing exactly when that is. Apparently it's different every time for you. If there's simply a "no self serving" rule, then no one has to guess about anything or take the matter into their own hands at the risk of offending anyone. I cannot believe that won't even concede that there is logic to this side of the argument. You're being irrational.

I mean it really depends on so many things.

Sounds to me like it's simply up to when YOU decide it's appropriate or not.

It's all about common sense and trying to use your brian I guess.

First of all there is nothing common about "Common Sense". Secondly, my common sense AND my friend Brian say that self serving doesn't make any sense because it's solely up to you to decide when you want to do it and that doesn't do any good to the rest of the people you play with. That's not anarchy by any actual definition. That's just plain selfish.

As for talking behind peoples backs - you've obviously taken that quote out of context, and I'm sure you're aware of that. I hope it made you feel big.

How exactly did I take that out of context? You were joking? It didn't seem like it at the time. I didn't see a smily-face. I brought attention to it because I actually thought you were serious. If it was not intended that way, I'm sorry. I don't say any of this to make me feel "big". I sort of resent that you would imply as much -- especially after purporting to have so much respect for me.

Of course I decided if I think it has a practicle purpose or not - I would never let someone else tell me what I think.

I'm not trying to tell you what to think. It's called a debate and generally people that disagree try to make a solid case for their side of things to possibly sway the other persons opinion or effect the thoughts of other people listening or reading the proceedings.

If you attempted to make a mature and serious argument for why there was a practicle purpose to not selfserving, I would gladly listen.

Dude. I don't know how much more mature and serious I can be. Please let's not degrade into petty name calling. My arguments are serious and valid -- as are yours. I happen to rather strongly disagree with you, so we're arguing. If no one can argue with you and not be immature and and serious, then fine, fuck it, I'm more than happy to stop wasting my time trying to explain my perspective. It's not like this board is chock-a-block full of serious and mature discussion. I don't know why I have to be so serious and mature for you.

and the only practicallity I can see for not selfserving is that it makes hogging the bag impossible,

This is the essence of my mature and serious argument. Thank you for being nice and succint about that.

but if you respect the other people in the circle, this wouldn't be a problem.

The problem is that most of the time people that self serve have no respect for the other people in the circle. It's great if you do and self serve "with respect", but this doesn't apply to most people.

Most people seem to believe when the bag comes to them they have a divine right to "try the move (or combo) 'til they hit it" -- even if it takes 5 tries to do it. There is no standard that says how many self serves is okay; there is no underestimating people's ability to be inconsiderate and disrespectful of each other. The *only* logical way to stop this is to not self serve. Imagine trying to explain your "rules" for not self serving to a new player. I'd be confused.

This is especially true for new kids coming into the game who see you do it and think it's okay. To step back for a second, I think one of the main reasons why the Czech's apparently self serve all the time is because the people that introduced the game to them were HORRIBLE self servers who didn't even realise the concept of non-self-serving. It's this kind of irrepsonsibility that leads to good (fundamental) rules being broken and lost forever in an ocean of selfish denial (sorry for waxing poetic).

Finally, I'm glad you think I've got my headscrewd on properly, I must say that up until reading that post, I had you down as probably my biggest footbag hero (or at least in my top three),

Again, thanks.

and I'm very sorry that we've had this argument and that I've been so disillusioned.

Ouch Hey, it's not really any skin off my back if you built me up to be something I'm not. I'm an opininated asshole. I shred. Don't like me for something I typed on a forum? Maybe I could do something to change to your mind?

It sounds more to me like I got you upset and flustered and you just posted your thoughts without thinking about it. I do that myself lots. Everyone on here does occassionally. Maybe you'll change your mind and apologize for calling me immature and frivolous. Maybe not. I'm not holding my breathe, but I must say that I'm disappointed.

However I make no apologies for what I say,

That's a scary policy; generally reserved for the immature. Adults can apologize when they realize they hurt someone's feelings. Hey, if I've hurt your feelings with what I've said, I'm sorry.

I never hold my opinions back and I always try to be as honest as possible.

I wouldn't have it any other way.

For what it's worth Jeremy, I still think you've got you're head screwed on straight (even if you are an evil self serve condoner (is that a word? ) and I still respect you because I think this forum is complete bullshit and I'm not taking any of it personally or truly seriously.

Why do I post here??? oh wait, I don't.... uhhh, shit!!

LOL

My name is Allan and I'm a recovering self server.

[Doylie]

*blatantly stays away from the Allan/Jeremy thing*

Umm, just so no-one got the wrong idea, that last 'Guest' post up there was mine, i was at an internet cafe and thought i'd logged in properly when i obviously hadn't. Sorry.

[jon]

so much emotion, its still only hack dont freak out every circle has its rules. If you step into someone elses try and follow their rules, if its yours you decide imho.

[Guest]

so much emotional, its still only hack dont freak out[\quote]

This from the guy who started the "Rejecting BAP" thread on flipsider

Shit disturber

It's not really "only hack". I spend a lot of my time working on "only hack" and I care about the direction it takes. If I go to tournament next year and everybody in every circle I step into self servers I'll be truly sad and I'll wish that I had been more vocal about it when maybe there was chance to make some people think about it.

every circle has its rules. If you step into someone elses try and follow their rules, if its yours you decide imho.

Who's circle is who's? On Friday, when we play Jon, who's circle will it be? Who's "rules" will you follow? You know I don't like self servers, but you do it anyway. Does that make our circle "yours"?

I think the circle "belongs" to everyone playing in it and no one person should be deciding the rules for everyone else. When you self serve, you decide for everyone what kind of circle it is and what the rules are.

If everyone actually followed "Chris's Rules for Self Serving" (which seem almost reasonable to me) it probably wouldn't be a problem. But for most people, once you open the gate to it, any respect for the "rules" goes out the window.

[jon]

on friday I will try to not self serve but it feels ohhhh sooo gooood :p jk

[Guest]

on friday I will try to not self serve but it feels ohhhh sooo gooood :p jk

I'd rather have you not self serving because you thought it was the right thing to do and not just because I've been whining about it here, but I'll take what I can get

[Guest]

ok allan, Firstly let me say, when I said I make no apologies for what I say, I meant that I don't apologies for my opinions - I often apologies for what I say - for example the other day I was playing Touch Football (like rugby league but better ) in a team of people who had hardly played at all, except for myself, and at one particular point, the other team scored and I turned around and yelled at one of our team mates for letting the score in. I later spent the rest of the night apologising, and still feel guilty about it now (I believe that yelling at a teammate in sport is the worst possible offence -apart from getting in a fight with them).

So I guess you can see where this is leading. I'm sorry for much of what I said in that post - I wrote as a spur of the moment, caught up with emotions. I did briefly think, when reading your first post, that you couldn't possible be serious about all of that, but I guess one of my faults is that I'm pretty crap and noticing if someone really means something or not, I guess especially since we haven't met, so I don't really know if you're a serious person or not. The reason you were (and after your last post, still are I guess) probably my favourite footbag player was/is about so much more than your footbag skills. If I were to base my descision completely on skills, I don't think that anyone could go past Vasek or Lon. Infact, because you were the moderator on the freestyle list, and kept bouncing my posts (i think you did three in a row) which I thought were legit. I originally had a pretty low opinion of you. But then reading what you had to say on this board changed my opinion a lot. The fact that you were one of the only "big name" players to make posts, the way you spoke out against the war and the fact that you're an anarchist, all combined in makeing you my footbag hero - you were demonstrating the kind of behaviour I would like to emulate if I were a "big name" player.

Anyway, I have to go, but I'll comment on the selfserving later.