Everything you Own (ownership)

Drew · Post by **Drew** » 12 Oct 2007 13:34

Blue_turnip wrote:The more I own, the more tied down I feel in life. I can't wait to finish school and leave and just take a couple belongings with me.

According to Buddhist belief, by clinging to your attachments, or things you own, in life you are delaying the non-conceptual truth that everything is empty.

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 12 Oct 2007 19:33

duffelbag wrote:
Blue_turnip wrote:The more I own, the more tied down I feel in life. I can't wait to finish school and leave and just take a couple belongings with me.
According to Buddhist belief, by clinging to your attachments, or things you own, in life you are delaying the non-conceptual truth that everything is empty.

That is a very accurate reflection on my beliefs.

Here is the (probably uncomplete) list of things I'll take down to college (I won't need pots and pans because teh college has those in the hall):

- Tootbrush/Toothpaste
- 1 X Formal Suit
- 4 X T-shirt
- 2 X Full length Jeans
- 2 X Shorts
- 1 X Jumper
- A variety of socks and underwear

- Graphics card (Ati X1950 Pro), because I'll probably get a new comp when I'm down there.
- Footbags.
- 2 X Shoe pairs ( I don't know which ones yet)
- A portable harddisk with my music on it. Its impractical to take my CD collection everywhere.
- Bass guitar (I'll buy another amp down when I get to Melbourne)
- Suitcase
- Watch (I've had since I was 9, and I don't take off)
- Wallet with the usual stuff in it.
- Phone
- iPod nano

The list looks huge but really, its nothing.

Tell me if I've forgotten obvious/ necessary stuff.

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 12 Oct 2007 19:36

- Phone Charger
- iPod connecter cable
- Headphones

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 12 Oct 2007 19:40

- Passport
- Some form of connection between the harddisk and the PC (I don't own the harddisk yet)

Can someone please explain why there isn't an edit function in this forum?

QuantumBalance · Post by **QuantumBalance** » 13 Oct 2007 00:09

Hehe!

Commodore · Post by **Commodore** » 13 Oct 2007 02:14

http://zenhabits.net/2007/09/minimalist ... challenge/

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 14 Oct 2007 03:09

duffelbag wrote:
Blue_turnip wrote:The more I own, the more tied down I feel in life. I can't wait to finish school and leave and just take a couple belongings with me.
According to Buddhist belief, by clinging to your attachments, or things you own, in life you are delaying the non-conceptual truth that everything is empty.

And what's their evidence for that claim? Oh wait, it's a religion, they don't need evidence to make statements about how the world works.

Interestingly, the current evolutionary psychology theory is that the reason we developed intelligence because we developed tools; the better we got using tools the more intelligent we got and the more advanced our tools became. When you think about this, it seems really obvious, because the two things humans are most advanced in the animal world at are obviously intelligence, but also dexterity. No other animal in the world could ever be trained to write language to the skill that humans can, even if they didn't know what it meant.

So "the things you own" can be seen as the reason why you have the ability to think beyond the level of a chimpanzee.

Of course I'd agree that materialism in the sense of this discussion can be a problem, but I think the statement that "everything is empty" or that things you own delay the realisation of that is a meaningless statement.

QuantumBalance wrote:I don't know much about Tim Learys philosophy. I don't feel the need to know.

Tim Leary thinks that LSD and psilocybin (and other drugs) are linked to spiritualism, and open our minds to another universe or some kind of new age hippy shit.

I think its a copout to say that you own other things that arent of note Smile What are they!? hehe

The other things I own are things that everybody own, so I didn't think they were worth mentioning; food, food utensils, clothes etc. The only things I spend significant amounts of money on, that isn't for survival, is my computer and books (and of course non material things like going out drinking with friends, etc.)

Drew · Post by **Drew** » 14 Oct 2007 11:00

beginning of a friendly discussion...

Jeremy wrote:
duffelbag wrote:
Blue_turnip wrote:The more I own, the more tied down I feel in life. I can't wait to finish school and leave and just take a couple belongings with me.
According to Buddhist belief, by clinging to your attachments, or things you own, in life you are delaying the non-conceptual truth that everything is empty.
And what's their evidence for that claim? Oh wait, it's a religion, they don't need evidence to make statements about how the world works.

It is the belief that everything in the world is empty or meaningless, you came into the world alone and your birth is empty. Death and birth are dellusions, there is no coming or going, the only important and meaningful ideals are that of attaining eternal happiness, or nirvana or whatever you wanna call it.

Jeremy wrote:
Interestingly, the current evolutionary psychology theory is that the reason we developed intelligence because we developed tools; the better we got using tools the more intelligent we got and the more advanced our tools became. When you think about this, it seems really obvious, because the two things humans are most advanced in the animal world at are obviously intelligence, but also dexterity. No other animal in the world could ever be trained to write language to the skill that humans can, even if they didn't know what it meant.

So "the things you own" can be seen as the reason why you have the ability to think beyond the level of a chimpanzee.

How can "the things you own" be seen as the reason humans have a higher brain capacity? You related evolution with tools. Humans have possessions because there is a need or attachment to the "things you own," higher intelligence requires the use of more possessions for more purposes, we developed brains before tools, dude.

Humans developed intelligence which led to the use of tools. Are you saying humans developed intelligence AFTER taking the initiative to use tools? It would require intelligence to keep improving upon the tools, not the other way around, improving intelligence from use of tools? Our tools became more advanced because the brain became more advanced, the improvement of tools relied on growth of the brain.

Jeremy wrote: Of course I'd agree that materialism in the sense of this discussion can be a problem, but I think the statement that "everything is empty" or that things you own delay the realisation of that is a meaningless statement.

You can't deny that "the things you own" tie you down to this earth, the more you own the more you have to worry about and clutter your peace of mind.

I'm agnostic, I'm not even Buddhist, I was relating Blue Turnips idea of being tied down in life to a view of death.

QuantumBalance · Post by **QuantumBalance** » 14 Oct 2007 13:11

I really like all the ideas that people are adding to this discussion. In particular I enjoyed all the things that Jeremy just wrote! Thanks.

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 14 Oct 2007 17:30

[quote="jeremy][quote="duffelbag]Blue_turnip wrote:
The more I own, the more tied down I feel in life. I can't wait to finish school and leave and just take a couple belongings with me.

According to Buddhist belief, by clinging to your attachments, or things you own, in life you are delaying the non-conceptual truth that everything is empty.[/quote]

And what's their evidence for that claim? Oh wait, it's a religion, they don't need evidence to make statements about how the world works.

Interestingly, the current evolutionary psychology theory is that the reason we developed intelligence because we developed tools; the better we got using tools the more intelligent we got and the more advanced our tools became. When you think about this, it seems really obvious, because the two things humans are most advanced in the animal world at are obviously intelligence, but also dexterity. No other animal in the world could ever be trained to write language to the skill that humans can, even if they didn't know what it meant.

So "the things you own" can be seen as the reason why you have the ability to think beyond the level of a chimpanzee. [/quote]

Whether or not its evolution that causes the attachment (and it is!), I have to agree that people who cling to items sentimentally (of course, there's nothing wrong with clinging to an icepick when you're halfway up a cliff face), are delaying the truth that everything is meaningless. They can do this concsiously or not. I do it! I try my best not to though.

I'm not religious, but I have to say I agree with the statement.

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 14 Oct 2007 17:33

Sorry i totally screwed up coding that last post.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 14 Oct 2007 19:54

duffelbag wrote:
It is the belief that everything in the world is empty or meaningless, you came into the world alone and your birth is empty. Death and birth are dellusions, there is no coming or going, the only important and meaningful ideals are that of attaining eternal happiness, or nirvana or whatever you wanna call it.

I didn\'t ask you to repeat your claims, I asked you to provide evidence that they are true. I have observed both deaths and births; and I have no reason to question my observations. Many other people have also observed the same things. If you\'re going to argue that they are "dellusions[sic]" then you should be able to provide actual evidence that they are, otherwise I\'m not convinced at all. You claim that "the only important and meaningful ideals are that of attaining eternal happiness" but again you provide no evidence that is the case. There is no evidence to believe that any human emotion can be achieved "eternally." There are plenty of things that I feel are important and meaningful, which I happily accept are not related to "attaining eternal happiness," are you saying that my feelings are wrong, and if so, what evidence do you have that my feelings are wrong, and your feelings are right? Doesn\'t it seem more likely that what I feel is important and meaningful to me, actually is important and meaningful to me; which would, of course mean that you\'re wrong?

Nihilism is a weak and meaningless philosophy. It\'s blatantly obvious and observable that many people do find meaning for their lives. Do you, and the other nihilists on this forum deny that it\'s possible to feel like your life means something? How do you explain the feeling that many people experience of purpose and meaning in their lives?

How can "the things you own" be seen as the reason humans have a higher brain capacity? You related evolution with tools. Humans have possessions because there is a need or attachment to the "things you own," higher intelligence requires the use of more possessions for more purposes, we developed brains before tools, dude.

Humans developed intelligence which led to the use of tools. Are you saying humans developed intelligence AFTER taking the initiative to use tools? It would require intelligence to keep improving upon the tools, not the other way around, improving intelligence from use of tools? Our tools became more advanced because the brain became more advanced, the improvement of tools relied on growth of the brain.

Any sources for these claims or are you just making them up?

My primary source was Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast by the evolutionary biologist.

I\'m guessing you\'ve never studied evolution, or else you wouldn\'t have misunderstood my post so much. Intelligence and dexterity in humans are intrinsically linked. Both were developed at the same time; not one and then the other. Both were developed under the selection pressure of ability to make and use tools. Tools gave some humans higher chances of survival. To use more advanced tools they needed more advanced dexterity, so humans that did have more advanced dexterity than normal were more likely to survive. To have more advanced dexterity they needed more advanced intelligence, so humans with more advanced intelligence had more advanced dexterity, which meant they were more likely to have more advanced tools and more likely to survive. Almost certainly positive feedback loops in sexual selection were also involved. All three abilities (the use of tools, dexterity and intelligence) developed together.

That\'s what the scientific evidence suggests. If you think the science is wrong, I suggest you write a paper with your evidence that it\'s wrong and send it in to a journal like Nature so that you can become a ground breaking anthropologist or evolutionary biologist. I look to forward to reading your evidence that the science is wrong.

You can\'t deny that "the things you own" tie you down to this earth, the more you own the more you have to worry about and clutter your peace of mind.

I can deny that, and every other claim you make without evidence. Wouldn\'t you agree that it\'s hypothetically possible for somebody to own a lot of things, and not worry about them at all?

blue turnip wrote:Whether or not its evolution that causes the attachment (and it is!), I have to agree that people who cling to items sentimentally (of course, there\'s nothing wrong with clinging to an icepick when you\'re halfway up a cliff face), are delaying the truth that everything is meaningless. They can do this concsiously or not. I do it! I try my best not to though.

I\'m not religious, but I have to say I agree with the statement.

Dude nihilism is more dead than God. Things do have meaning. They have meaning within context. Questions like; "what is the meaning of life" are the wrong questions to ask, that\'s why answering them is impossible - because there isn\'t a set definite answer. On the other hand, people can live their lives with definite purpose, meaning and achievement. There is no evidence that life is "meaningless," and to keep saying so, without providing evidence is a waste of time.

What is the purpose of water? Would you agree that it doesn\'t have a purpose? Sure, but for example the purpose of storing water in big dams is to irrigate agriculture or generate electricity. Water doesn\'t have a purpose, but it certainly can be used for purposes. I would say that life is the same; it doesn\'t have a purpose, but it certainly can be used for purposes, and there any many observed examples where people have used their lives for purposes that they found meaningful and fulfilling. Do you think they\'re lying when they say that feel like they lead a meaningful life? Or are they wrong? What\'s your evidence that they\'re wrong?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 14 Oct 2007 20:10

Sorry, posting through a proxy, and apparently it puts in a slash whenever I use speech marks and apostrophes.

brinard · Post by **brinard** » 14 Oct 2007 20:17

man, i own a ton of shit.

not only do i have tons of toys, and footbags, yoyos and videogames/dvds,

i own a car that dosent run, and shoes i dont wear. i own books (school) that i never read, and i own too much art related crap, that i wont use and end up throwing out. and like 10 portfolios, one from each semester of each class.

theres alot more, but i just posted some stuff i want to keep, and some other shit i need to toss.

Commodore · Post by **Commodore** » 15 Oct 2007 05:03

Buddha didn't care about religion. He just wanted to know how to attain eternal happiness and developed his teaching after that. When asked if there's a god, Buddha replied that it's not important, this question is fruitless - nothing changes if we know the answer. So Buddha's teachings weren't religion but of course people later added stuff to it (like with any old religion) and turned it into a religion.

Owning stuff doesn't do anything bad, clinging to these things does.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 15 Oct 2007 07:17

I would say that the idea that "eternal happiness" exists suggests that it always has been a religion; because you obviously can't have any evidence that exists, even if you thought you were experiencing it, how would you know the experience is eternal? So that very premise is based on faith.

QuantumBalance · Post by **QuantumBalance** » 15 Oct 2007 08:27

Jeremy you sound like you don't believe in faith. I agree you can't prove it. And I don't think anyone should have blind faith without reason. But, don't you think that faith can add to your life? I don't nesc mean faith in a religion, but what about faith in spirituality.. or howabout faith in anything you want. Howabout when it comes to death. Are you just waiting to see what happens or do you ever think about it? I totally don't know what is gonna happen, but I have faith in what I believe (hope) might happen. That is different from someone who has faith in heaven and hell and is totally convinced of it. That is faith without reason. I believe in faith with reason. How bout u?

I don't like a lot of buddhism. Its too structured or something. I like being a free spirit, drawing upon the good ideas from different sources.

SWEET! back 2 the vid.

Commodore · Post by **Commodore** » 15 Oct 2007 08:58

Jeremy wrote:I would say that the idea that "eternal happiness" exists suggests that it always has been a religion; because you obviously can't have any evidence that exists, even if you thought you were experiencing it, how would you know the experience is eternal? So that very premise is based on faith.

Ok let's say "to maximize happiness" instead of "eternal happiness."

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 15 Oct 2007 18:09

I would say that everybody has some kind of faith in their lives. I have faith in my friends and family, that they're there for me if I need them.

But faith like that; it's based on evidence. It's not really faith, but a rational conclusion based on the way those people behave around me. I'll act as if my hypothesis towards those people is correct because evidence supports it, and I have no reason to think it's false.

In terms of death, the evidence suggests that there is no afterlife. We can play word games about that if you like, but there's no reason to believe there is any kind of afterlife, and when we assess people's consciousness and feeling as we reduce their brain power, we find it always diminishes - and if they do experience strange things, we can explain them. I will behave as if death is the complete end of me, my thoughts, my consciousness and my feelings until I see some reason to think differently. This means that I try to make the most out of my life, because although the nihilists may tell me that my life is meaningless, I'm going to take the opportunity to get as much as I can out of it anyway, because I feel so privileged to have ever been born and have a life.

I hate using the word "spirituality" because of all the supernatural and irrational connotations that word has. However I think everybody have experiences that they could choose to define as spiritual if they liked. The awe I feel for nature. The unity and comradeship at a demonstration, or in a sporting team. The amazing feeling of success after training 6 days a week for 6 months and then winning a medal at a national sporting event - those are all events that replicate so called "spiritual" experiences. In fact the research shows that you can get the benefits you get from praying and mediating, you can also get from almost anything you think of that involves focusing and usually away from your own life and problems. Playing footbag is definitely an equivalent to prayer or mediation; or playing music, or walking your dog (things like watching TV are not).

People often try to say that we need "spiritualism" or "religion" in our lives, but the reality is that most of us already have those things, we just call them something else.

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 16 Oct 2007 03:54

nice post.