3rd Quarter Online Competitions Official Release!

footymatt · Post by **footymatt** » 24 Oct 2007 04:52

Well dang. With all these rankings I guess I should of put in on this one huh? Nice job everybody! Just in case yall been wondering where I've been I took some time away from the comps to work on my basics. I don't feel my "vacation" was all that productive, but I'll see about getting some new film and putting in on the next comps. I guess yall will see me then. Ltr....again nice work everybody! Anssi..you rule dude.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 24 Oct 2007 07:00

wow, everyone did bust really big in this comp.

why did my entry wind up so dark???

it looked like this when i hosted it: http://www.footbag.org/gallery/show/13042

i really do appreciate all the feedback on moves people are giving this quarter, instead of just rankings. i hope no one minds if i comment on their comments, or ask follow-up questions.

shredinger z wrote:Also, the duck, in my opinion is a little bit forced, your neck should be higher.

do you mean the bag should have gone more around my neck, or do you literally mean i shouldnt have ducked so low to get my neck under the bag, because i've always understood it to be a good thing to lower yourself for a duck, so that way it shows you're actually ducking the bag, instead of not moving at all and just sending the bag up around your head.

jorden wrote:8. Pete Bowler
-4 points (initial clipper: no magic hop(1) and not lowering the body to cushion(1), gnarled hands(1), bad posture after duck(1))

jorden, your criticism regarding form is probably even more useful than critiques on cleanliness, etc, but i dont think form should factor much into the judging process

for me, its more important (in competition) for a move to be clean than to be executed with less than perfect form. like, what do my monkey paws have to do with whether or not i hit the move? i do like critiques on form, but just basic critiques on cleanliness go hand-in-hand with the stuff on form. so if you wouldnt mind, watch the original version (in this post) and tell me more about cleanliness and how it relates to form. feel free to PM. or not, whatever.

anyway, thanks for all the feed back. i'll hopefully do my own rankings/feedback later if i have time.

Jorden · Post by **Jorden** » 24 Oct 2007 09:04

C-Fan wrote:Interesting concept for a judging system. I think it's a bit harsh to deduct for planting on certain tricks, when it isn't standard to hit them muted.

This isn't what I meant. I'm referring to "stutter steps", like what players sometimes do between butterflies as a joke. For instance, some players do a gallop-type action with when doing a duck. That's unnecessary planting. Tomahawk with or without planting the whirl foot doesn't matter, and didn't affect my scoring.

C-Fan wrote:
On an unrelated note, when you say that sunilwalker swirl has "never been seen," do you mean by yourself personally, on video by the public, or in general terms? Was there ever some San Diego vid (by Maraxus) where Jason Crook hit this? I can't recall.

I meant I'd never seen it before.

slapdash21 wrote:jorden, your criticism regarding form is probably even more useful than critiques on cleanliness, etc, but i dont think form should factor much into the judging process for me, its more important (in competition) for a move to be clean than to be executed with less than perfect form. like, what do my monkey paws have to do with whether or not i hit the move? i do like critiques on form, but just basic critiques on cleanliness go hand-in-hand with the stuff on form. so if you wouldnt mind, watch the original version (in this post) and tell me more about cleanliness and how it relates to form. feel free to PM. or not, whatever.

There are 3 areas I looked at to rank the Sick 1s. Difficulty, Efficiency and Aesthetics. An aesthetically pleasing, effortless and difficult move is the best possible move to achieve in our sport. Do you agree?

For this hypothetical move to occur, I believe every part of the body must work together.
The reality is we can't mentally remove the legs from the body when we see a footbag trick. The entire body is seen as a whole. If you don't want your upper body to be considered, film yourself from the waist down.

In footbag, arms are used to balance us. Relaxed and raised to the sides provdes the most balance and is the ideal for every trick. Things like tense shoulders, palms twisted facing outward and clenched fists are not generally aesthetically pleasing and do not help in the performing of footbag tricks.

JM

gMoney · Post by **gMoney** » 24 Oct 2007 09:20

Nice trix, everyone. Man, I really wish I would've entered this one

And geez, look at all the entries from Venezuela! Wow.. And for the open sick 1, the original Daft Punk version would've been cooler

Zeb Jackson · Post by **Zeb Jackson** » 24 Oct 2007 12:34

ok so yeah, entrys whether open or novice were chosen by me, i personally think smog is harder than whirling swirl, and even though you may disagree, i didnt just throw them all nimbly bimbly into what i initially thought the ranking of thier trick was. I also asked others what they thought it was worth (an open or a novice ranking) with out telling them names, so that i could get player input on what they thought was an open or intermediate level trick.

thanks for your comments and your rankings, the sick 3 are rendering right now so they should be up by about the same time tonight that he sick 1s were released.

Eskimo Joe · Post by **Eskimo Joe** » 24 Oct 2007 12:50

Thanks for putting this all together Zeb! Great job.

Everyone had some sweet tricks in there. The open guys are nuts. I can't wait to see the 3's!

PegLegHolly · Post by **PegLegHolly** » 24 Oct 2007 12:57

i understand everyone being honest... i just dont think you have to be rude to be honest. like cfans post, he was honest but he wasnt calling "the" on everything. i think the term "the" is a bit overused, but appropriate in some cases. with the quality being low on some of the shots, how can you call something "the" or thin if you cant even see whats going on?

i also feel like people are being rude to the newer players. like a comment on the venesuela dude that did the hop over, saying that was an easy trick. i personally think hopover is hard, and compared to the other tricks its a lower add. so maybe instead of using the term "easy" you should just use "lower adds".

opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone has one.

Kljopa · Post by **Kljopa** » 24 Oct 2007 13:22

PegLegHolly wrote:

opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone has one.

Will Digges · Post by **Will Digges** » 24 Oct 2007 13:40

But everyone knows the add system has nothing to do with difficulty.

I think we just need a new system.

footymatt · Post by **footymatt** » 24 Oct 2007 14:20

PegLegHolly wrote:
i also feel like people are being rude to the newer players. like a comment on the venesuela dude that did the hop over, saying that was an easy trick. i personally think hopover is hard, and compared to the other tricks its a lower add. so maybe instead of using the term "easy" you should just use "lower adds".

I agree. I twisted both my ankles doing my 1000th (or so) hopover (I landed my jumping leg on my bag leg's inside shin), and that really sucked...so now I don't do them, and I think ne1 that does is doing an ankle breaker trick....props for risking it. plus although it's "easy" it can be hard for newbi's to master jumping without dropping the bag from the shock of landing (so hitting it, if you remember those newbi days (unless you've been pro since day 1), can be a big deal). I'm not saying he should be first or nethang, just agree'in. Ltr

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 24 Oct 2007 15:36

Wow Zeb, good job bro. I was expecting to wait the obligatory 6 weeks for release. You're a soldier. Anz' trik was off the chart. I thought it beat out Will's personally, but Will's trick was awesome as well. Good job everybody!

Hahaha I just watched the Novice Sick 1...You used the Tetris theme song!!! Go Venezuela!!!

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 24 Oct 2007 16:00

i personally didnt think that the pixir atomic dbl down was clean and I have a HARD TIME placing any hard trick with a thin or the dex above cleanly executed tricks. Jorden, Your judging system would place a highly flawed blurriest above a perfectly executed ripwalk. This shouldn't be. You dont deserve any points for trying to hit a hard trick and sucking at it.

Lee, I'm not trying to say you suck at that trick. Im speaking in generalities. Sorry.

Post by **Zac Miley** » 24 Oct 2007 16:46

I didn't mean that hopover was in general just an easy trick - just that it lacked difficulty in comparison to the rest of the tricks being hit in the competition. I wrote those little things in the time that the trick happened (although I watched the Open one multiple times).

Obviously I'm not trying to put anyone down, it's just me critiquing the moves hit.

I'm sorry if I offended/put anyone down.

HG · Post by HG » 24 Oct 2007 19:07

no one was complaining about the criticisms (except for pete

)

so no one else can apologize about being honest.

about the "how can you tell if a trick is the with low quality vid", most people can. After years of watching/hitting tricks, just the way the persons body is positioned during a trick can reveal that it is the.

brinard · Post by **brinard** » 24 Oct 2007 19:47

HG wrote:
about the "how can you tell if a trick is the with low quality vid", most people can. After years of watching/hitting tricks, just the way the persons body is positioned during a trick can reveal that it is the.

i think this idea is bs. (no offense H, lots o peeps think they have sight beyond sight or some shit).

everyones body is different. everyones camera is different. everyone footbags different. i dont see how just lookin at someones blurry camera/video can make you see its the or not. id give them the benifit of the doubt, just because this has no standing on anything other than the internet, and to announce a winner. so why bash the people who didnt win? they know they wont win when they enter, so no need rubbing it in.

i understand that from a invisibag clip you may be able to tell, depending on form and thats fine in certain cases. but for some things, like certain dexes, i see no way unless the vid is clear. i dont give a shit if you say otherwise, so dont worry about telling me im wrong.

im also disappointed on the amount of people juding these comps that never tell the lower players good job or props or anything. i know it discourages me, for sure. i look to upper players to build up the little guys. but that hardly ever happens. DC takes time to tell you what to do/why it was correct or sloppy or whatever, and dosent act like an asshole doing it.

Zeb Jackson · Post by **Zeb Jackson** » 24 Oct 2007 19:55

sick 3 will be up in about an hour...

JohnMacCormack · Post by **JohnMacCormack** » 24 Oct 2007 20:23

Erik Chan wrote:The Fairy pixie thing was incredibly the, and that's the only one that would have bothered me if I wasn't supposed to be judging anyway.

I just wanted to thank Eric for actually commenting on my move. It was the first time I even filmed a move so it took me forever to figure out how to submit it to the competition, that is why my video is the odd one out. Also the camera angle isn't the best for jiggles (well I'm not even sure there is a better angle for fairy pixie to look clean). I have another video where I think I hit it solid, but I didn't seal it.

http://www.footbag.org/gallery/show/13093

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 24 Oct 2007 20:40

HG wrote:
about the "how can you tell if a trick is the with low quality vid", most people can. After years of watching/hitting tricks, just the way the persons body is positioned during a trick can reveal that it is the.

Actually, I completely agree with Henry on this one. Regardless of your camera or your footbag, gravity works the same no matter where you are. Certain tricks are impossible to hit clean if your body isn't in certain positions at specific times, and you can tell this even with a bad camera. There are exceptions to this rule, depending on how many components are in the trick and whether or not it is downtime/uptime, but for some tricks you can tell by the timing of components whether or not it is clean. Nemesis comes to mind; if the third dex isn't thrown immediately after the 2nd dex, then the trick is doomed to be "the." As for examples of exceptions, one that comes to mind is spinning whirl; there was some video from 04 Worlds where Laroche does a fast spin with a high set, pauses, watches the bag fall, then does a last second clean whirl. He did it on purpose and everybody laughed.

Jorden: thanks for clarifying. I'm always intrigued by new systems for scoring. I think the best way to test anything out (and this is something I do in my academic studies all the time), is to try and find an example where the system doesn't work. Mirken picked up on something that was also on my mind, which I think needs to be addressed in your system by tweaking it. If we do start judging a trick based on how hard it is in the abstract, and then subtract points for execution, there is a clear problem with rewarding thin/the crazy tricks over cleanly executed standard tricks. Under your system, quadruple spinning clipper would clearly be a 10 in the abstract, while blurriest might be only a 7. If I hit double spinning clipper, I would have 2 points subtracted, but I would still beat a perfect blurriest. Even if you think DSC is cooler/harder than blurriest, that's beside the point; I did not hit the trick I said I would and had 2 mistakes, but I still beat somebody who hit their trick perfectly. Still, I think your system could have potential if you tweaked it.

Zeb Jackson · Post by **Zeb Jackson** » 24 Oct 2007 21:06

novice sick 3 is uploading to sick 3 as we speak, as soon as its uploaded then ill release the sick 3s

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 24 Oct 2007 21:14

I think Jorden's system is basically good, and I use a similar system when I judge sick 1s and 3s actually (just in my head), but I think "the" moves should be punished much more severely. In my opinion a "the" move is not actually hitting the move at all. Of course it depends on how you "the" the move - but in terms of dexes, ducks or spins, if you're not actually doing what the move is supposed to be, you should be severely punished - certainly that would be the case in other sports like diving.

I also don't think sealing should be taken into account, except as indirect way of judging how well the move was executed. It is not a footbag skill to be able to catch the bag with your hands - and in examples like Max's gyro barroque, I think it's clear that the lack of a seal wasn't because of a lack of execution, but rather a lack of hand-eye co-ordination (I thought the move was clean too). If he had to reach or lunge to catch the bag, but did catch it, that would be worse execution than getting a relatively straight set and dropping the catch.

Regarding camera quality; I think it's a little harsh to penalise people because of their lack of a good camera. We should be encouraging people to enter, even if all they have is a mobile phone of a photo camera that can take pictures. That said, given the time you have to film a move, bad lighting and poor angles aren't really acceptable. These kinds of things ideally shouldn't be taken into account in judging, but if the judge can't see how well the move is hit, you shouldn't assume it's hit poorly or well, but give a lower score because you can't tell. It's a complicated issue, and I'm a little conflicted on it, but I think if you make sure your move is well lit and filmed from a good angle, there isn't a problem.

The standard was typically good. I think I would go for Sunilwalker swirl or pdx swifter as the top 2 moves. Both stood out for their execution especially. Both could have been lit a lot better, but I felt like you could see the moves enough to see that they're really well hit and confidently hit too. As I said, things like that shouldn't really be taken into account in judging footbag, unless it becomes impossible to see the move - I don't think that was the case here.

There were a couple of moves towards the bottom that I would have thought should have been intermediate, and indeed I find easier than some of the moves that were in intermediate.

modified

3rd Quarter Online Competitions Official Release!

thank you