Passing on bails
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crazylegs32
- Egyptian Footgod
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james_dean
- space cowboy
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james_dean
- space cowboy
- Posts: 2268
- Joined: 26 Oct 2004 23:11
- Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia
I always thought that "genuine" was "guiltless with lots of uniques and a code of honor not to bail" type of concept, which is what everyone is aiming at it seems like. At least that's what I've always considered genuine.
Of course, people in different areas sometimes turn a term into different meanings, but that's how we used it around here. I think that probably was influenced by Kenny at the time.
Genuine of course has a really subjective component to it based on skill level. But that was part of the fun of it >> knowing the people you play with, allows everyone to push the honor code [edit] of what is considered a bail higher over time.
Of course, people in different areas sometimes turn a term into different meanings, but that's how we used it around here. I think that probably was influenced by Kenny at the time.
Genuine of course has a really subjective component to it based on skill level. But that was part of the fun of it >> knowing the people you play with, allows everyone to push the honor code [edit] of what is considered a bail higher over time.
Bob R.
Back when the term genuine was being created . . . it most certainly did not mean unique.
Genuine meant genuine. Genuine effort, genuine links, no bullshit routine crap. Somebody could bust nothing but five add tricks and not be genuine if there was no difficulty for them in the tricks or the links.
Of course the kids these days just take something and redefine it. . .
I think Jeremy wants more people to play genuine, but that term has apparently become synonymous with unique to a lot of the new players. ..
Genuine meant genuine. Genuine effort, genuine links, no bullshit routine crap. Somebody could bust nothing but five add tricks and not be genuine if there was no difficulty for them in the tricks or the links.
Of course the kids these days just take something and redefine it. . .
I think Jeremy wants more people to play genuine, but that term has apparently become synonymous with unique to a lot of the new players. ..
It's more that I think there is a greater disparity between the hardest and the easiest tricks that people are hitting in runs these days. A few years ago you could expect to see an add variance of 5 adds to 3 adds - that's only 2 adds difference. Today it's common to see a variance of 7 to 3 - 4 add variance - which is twice as much. It seems like bops have become engrained as an acceptable bail, and I think it would be possible to maintain the upper end of shred while rising the lower end - not in some runs, but almost all the time, like most players play guiltless all the time (once they're capable of it).
Tsiangkun, is your reply to me?
If yes, I did not say "genuine = uniques" (although I'd agree that some may think that's what it means). I said "lots of uniques with honor code not to bail". That's different, and I think it's true >> no one wants to watch even the hardest tricks over and over and over if there's no variety.
Also, if your "kids these days" comments refers to me..... Ummm, whatever
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If not, disregard my comments immediately above because I think in reality we're saying the same thing. When you know a player, their expected bails level changes. To remain genuine, the lowliest of the bails should really start to disappear.
Then again, if someone seals a 25 add trick with a butterfly, I'm not going to think "boy, what a bail"
If yes, I did not say "genuine = uniques" (although I'd agree that some may think that's what it means). I said "lots of uniques with honor code not to bail". That's different, and I think it's true >> no one wants to watch even the hardest tricks over and over and over if there's no variety.
Also, if your "kids these days" comments refers to me..... Ummm, whatever
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If not, disregard my comments immediately above because I think in reality we're saying the same thing. When you know a player, their expected bails level changes. To remain genuine, the lowliest of the bails should really start to disappear.
Then again, if someone seals a 25 add trick with a butterfly, I'm not going to think "boy, what a bail"
Bob R.
Good point, and I see what you're setting me up for.
Toe stall is too easy for a seal. I think your next point will be "well then, isn't a butterfly too easy too at this point since players are getting so good?"
True enough. It depends on what you're sealing and what your level is. If you're sealing a trick that's only been hit a few times ever, or that only a couple players hit, my acceptable bail threshold is lower. If it's a more common trick, and you're a very skilled player, I think the bail level should raise. Penske is a great example >> he pretty much adds an extra dex (or some component) to just about all his seals that I see. He's one of the best, and therefore has taken his bails to a whole other level.
edit: but there are so few out there that have gotten to that level so far. But in the cotinual drive that players have to be among the best, you'll see more and more upcoming players copying Jim (Clavens/Vasek etc.) rather than copying the previous versions of best players. When you're copying someone who's raised the level of bails, you'll start doing that too.
Toe stall is too easy for a seal. I think your next point will be "well then, isn't a butterfly too easy too at this point since players are getting so good?"
True enough. It depends on what you're sealing and what your level is. If you're sealing a trick that's only been hit a few times ever, or that only a couple players hit, my acceptable bail threshold is lower. If it's a more common trick, and you're a very skilled player, I think the bail level should raise. Penske is a great example >> he pretty much adds an extra dex (or some component) to just about all his seals that I see. He's one of the best, and therefore has taken his bails to a whole other level.
edit: but there are so few out there that have gotten to that level so far. But in the cotinual drive that players have to be among the best, you'll see more and more upcoming players copying Jim (Clavens/Vasek etc.) rather than copying the previous versions of best players. When you're copying someone who's raised the level of bails, you'll start doing that too.
Bob R.
Hey Jeremy, been away on business for a week, sorry for the long delay.
Totally agree with you that 'acceptable bail' is completely arbitrary/subjective, which is ok in my opinion (apply the correct bail level to the player's ability). On the other hand, for many players, the traditional guiltless bail level is sufficient because those many players aren't better than the players that set the original arbitrary level.
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As for BSOS killing genuine.. I guess I just think about it differently. I would say that a player that entirely focuses on BSOS isn't playing genuine. I find it boring to watch a player that really only cares about hitting tricks on both sides. But, I never find it boring to watch a player mix it up and play at a level that constantly pushes them.
So, I'm going to keep using genuine to indicate playing with a cool mix of tricks that are hard for a player. But I'm just me, playing by myself in my barn, so my term usage need not affect anyone else. Ha ha
Totally agree with you that 'acceptable bail' is completely arbitrary/subjective, which is ok in my opinion (apply the correct bail level to the player's ability). On the other hand, for many players, the traditional guiltless bail level is sufficient because those many players aren't better than the players that set the original arbitrary level.
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As for BSOS killing genuine.. I guess I just think about it differently. I would say that a player that entirely focuses on BSOS isn't playing genuine. I find it boring to watch a player that really only cares about hitting tricks on both sides. But, I never find it boring to watch a player mix it up and play at a level that constantly pushes them.
So, I'm going to keep using genuine to indicate playing with a cool mix of tricks that are hard for a player. But I'm just me, playing by myself in my barn, so my term usage need not affect anyone else. Ha ha
Bob R.
ha ha.. don't mind me, I'm a dumb ass >> I thought you were saying "BSOS is the next evolutionary step after genuine, therefore BSOS killed genuine". When looking back again I think you were saying "It's too bad that genuine became a less popular/recognized concept as compared to BSOS"
so, I was debating.. my bad! also glad to know that I'm thinking about the concepts correctly. If I had to say what my main goal is in playing again these days, I would say "smooth and genuine"
so, I was debating.. my bad! also glad to know that I'm thinking about the concepts correctly. If I had to say what my main goal is in playing again these days, I would say "smooth and genuine"
Bob R.
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crazylegs32
- Egyptian Footgod
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The "when to pass" question is a good one. On one hand, part of the point of the way we play is to push our limits with the belief that the next part of the string will be doing just that. On the other hand, I've been in circles where passes after a solid run creates really great energy for the circle.
So, when to pass? Or is shred til you drop better?
I think Jeremy's original point on bails leads to "if you obviously bail compared to your level of play, pass it". I think that's a good fair rule that promotes circle energy and also allows players to push their limits (i.e. if you're still pushing your limits, shred til you drop is cool still).
Wait, that's basically back to genuine again.
In short if players are playing genuine and passing when they fall beneath that level, we're ok.
So, when to pass? Or is shred til you drop better?
I think Jeremy's original point on bails leads to "if you obviously bail compared to your level of play, pass it". I think that's a good fair rule that promotes circle energy and also allows players to push their limits (i.e. if you're still pushing your limits, shred til you drop is cool still).
Wait, that's basically back to genuine again.
In short if players are playing genuine and passing when they fall beneath that level, we're ok.
Bob R.
Yeah, I think we're ok no matter when people pass, but I agree with the sentiment, if you play below your level (in a "serious" shred situation) then that's probably when you should pass. My question was really should that "below your level" standard remain at bops. If people who were capable of it, decided to pass on bops as well, how badly would their run length be affected, and how long would it take them to be hitting the same runs as they hit now, just with slightly harder bails?
I'm saying that footbag has been increasing in skill level fairly dramatically over the last 10 years, so why is the lowest acceptable standard not changing at all?
I'm saying that footbag has been increasing in skill level fairly dramatically over the last 10 years, so why is the lowest acceptable standard not changing at all?
About bsos killed genuine - that's a really good point and it made me think.
Do players that focus training their flipside to become bothsided progress slower, than those who are not trying to be completely bothsided?
If yes, maybe that's why the lower acceptable standarts haven't changed.
Does it really pay off to be flipsideless? Is it just illusive, distracting from the real level of game?
Do players that focus training their flipside to become bothsided progress slower, than those who are not trying to be completely bothsided?
If yes, maybe that's why the lower acceptable standarts haven't changed.
Does it really pay off to be flipsideless? Is it just illusive, distracting from the real level of game?
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james_dean
- space cowboy
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