Hamas Fights back

[Jeremy]

Turkey's policy is to target the people that they profile as potential terrorists and to give them better health services, gifts on religious days, cheaper education, counselling and to attempt to better engage them with the community.

The US and the UK have had a number of further terrorists attacks planned against them, which have failed. Turkey is a completely Muslim country that is part of the war in Iraq, and yet has no terrorist attacks. The US and the UK have very few Muslims (in comparison with Turkey) and yet are constantly working to "foil" terrorist attacks. Or look at Indonesia; the largest Muslim country in the world. They have similar "community engagement" programs and much less terrorism. Indonesia is a country that's had religious inspired violence for decades. Why has it stopped now? Why didn't it stop until they changed their policy? Coincidence?

I don't know about Spain, apart from the fact that they had a terrorist attack only a few weeks ago, which wasn't 2002 as far as I'm aware.

[Outsider]

I wanted to stay out of this one, I really did...

But I decided to wade into this latest mess because I felt compelled to challenge some of Jeremy's assertions.

J, I love ya, mate, but I think you're cherry-picking your facts and circumstances and not giving an accurate picture of what goes on in Turkey.

I'll add some bold type here and there...

First:

Have you seen what's happened in Turkey. They're a completely Muslim society. They had a terrorist attack in 2002 and they changed their policy to attempting to integrate potential terrorists into the community as much as possible, and they've never had a terrorist attack since

It could be that this is one reason why they have had fewer terrorist attacks. Consider: who should muslim terrorists attack in Turkey? Almost everybody around is a fellow muslim. There are exceedingly few Jewish targets to be attacked, all of which are now on high alert and provide for their own defense. There are, like, two synagogues in all of Istanbul, and nobody is allowed to visit without an appointment. Then, everybody is screened before being allowed to enter. The streets they are on are small and car traffic on them is easily controlled. I know this first hand.

Second, this argument on terrorism in Turkey is, conveniently, very narrowly focused on Islamic terrorism. That is very misleading, allowing you to paint a very rosy picture. In short, I call bullshit. Turkey has had a very nastly history of, and continues to have, shall we say, "ethnic strife."

For my convenience, I'm just going to quote from Wikipedia. Again, the bold type is my addition.

First, from the wikipedia entry on Kurds:

In 1925 and 1930, Kurdish revolts were forcibly suppressed.
Following these events, the existence of distinct ethnic groups like Kurds in Turkey was officially denied and any expression by the Kurds of their ethnic identity was harshly repressed. Until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language – although widespread – was illegal. As a result of reforms inspired by the EU, music, radio and television broadcasts in Kurdish are now allowed albeit with severe time restrictions (for example, radio broadcasts can be no longer than sixty minutes per day nor constitute more than five hours per week while television broadcasts are subject to even greater restrictions). Additionally, education in Kurdish is now permitted though only in private institutions.

As late as 1994, however, Leyla Zana, the first female Kurdish representative in Turkey's Parliament, was charged for making "separatist speeches" and sentenced to fifteen years in prison. At her inauguration as an MP, she reportedly identified herself as a Kurd. Amnesty International reported that "[s]he took the oath of loyalty in Turkish, as required by law, then added in Kurdish, 'I shall struggle so that the Kurdish and Turkish peoples may live together in a democratic framework.' Parliament erupted with shouts of 'Separatist!', 'Terrorist!', and 'Arrest her!'"[38]

The Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan (PKK), also known as KADEK and Kongra-Gel, is considered by the US and EU to be a terrorist organization dedicated to creating an independent Kurdish state in a territory (traditionally referred to as Kurdistan) consisting of parts of southeastern Turkey, northeastern Iraq, northeastern Syria and northwestern Iran. It is an ethnic secessionist organization using force and threat of force against both civilian and military targets for the purpose of achieving its political goal.
Between 1984 and 1999, the PKK and the Turkish military engaged in open war, and much of the countryside in the southeast was depopulated, with Kurdish civilians moving to local defensible centers such as Diyarbakır, Van, and Şırnak, as well as to the cities of western Turkey and even to western Europe. The causes of the depopulation included PKK atrocities against Kurdish clans they could not control, the poverty of the southeast, and the Turkish state's military operations.[39] Human Rights Watch has documented many instances where the Turkish military forcibly evacuated villages, destroying houses and equipment to prevent the return of the inhabitants. An estimated 3,000 Kurdish villages in Turkey were virtually wiped from the map, representing the displacement of more than 378,000 people

And just for fun, a little bit from the Wikipedia entry on the PKK:
Recent history

[edit] 1999–2004
After his capture in 1999, the group's leader Abdullah Öcalan has urged the PKK to work peacefully to attain its objectives, and the PKK declared a ceasefire in that year. It changed its name to KADEK to reflect moves towards peaceful politics and co-operation with a wider range of ideologies, but it is claimed that this change was aimed to protect itself from the legal implications of being listed as a terrorist organization. A PKK/KADEK spokesman stated that its armed wing, The People’s Defense Force, would not disband or surrender its weapons, to maintain its capability of self-defense. PKK/KADEK avowing to not lay down its arms underscores that the organization maintains its capability to carry out terrorist operations.[13] Abdullah Öcalan, has declared his own militants as "No better than Murderers".[14]

[edit] 2004–2006

The refusal of the Turkish government to issue a general amnesty to PKK operatives, the failure of the Kurdish nationalist Democratic People's Party to make an electoral breakthrough until 2007 and profound ideological disputes within the movement led to the ceasefire becoming ragged in 2003, before breaking down completely in 2004.[attribution needed] Since the declaration of cease-fire on August 2000, aside from a few isolated incidents, the armed conflict had come to a complete halt. Since 2004, there has been an increase in PKK attacks on the Turkish military, police, and governmental targets near the Iraqi border in the last months. Ankara is increasing its pressure on the US to obtain the go-ahead for a military strike to the PKK installations in northern Iraq. PKK claims it is only acting in self-defense and for the protection of the Kurds.

During the 2003-2005 period, the total security personnel lost (soldier, police (21), village guard (22)) is 246. The total number of personnel wounded and disabled is 147. The total armed militants captured: 1325 (359 dead, 377 live, 589 amnesty) (116 among 377 through exchange of criminals with Iran, Iraq, Syria, Greece, Azerbaijan and Ukraine). The TBMM report also expects an increase in the number of militants captured through exchange of criminals in the coming years. These numbers are presented as part of the fight on terror activities. Report also mentions growing efforts in mobilizing the criminal intelligence exchange.


[edit] 2006-2007
The PKK had declared ceasefire since September 28, 2006.[15][16] although Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and Chief of Staff, General Yaşar Büyükanıt do not recognize such a motion. Erdoğan was quoted as saying; "A ceasefire is done between states. It is not something for a terrorist organization,"[17][18] The Turkish army is calling for action against PKK training camps in northern Iraq.[19]


A demonstration against the PKK in Kadıköy, Istanbul on October 22, 2007.On September 29, 2007 "PKK terrorists set up an ambush in the Beytüşşebap district of Şırnak on Saturday. The assault claimed the lives of seven village guards, five construction workers working on a dam project to bring water to their villages and one young child, while wounding two others".

Turkish newspaper Zaman reported: "Separatists and terrorists from the PKK used machine gun fire on a minibus carrying 13 people, killing 12 people including seven village guard militia," local governor Selahattin Aparı said on Sunday. The 13th body, belonging to a child, was located close to the scene of the attack a few hours after the governor's statement."[20] According to PatDollard.com, Bozan Tekin, a PKK militant, claimed that the attack was in fact carried out by the government forces against a Kurdish wedding party. [21]

In early October 2007, PKK fighters carried out another ambush, this time near the border with Iraq, killing 13 Turkish soldiers. The incident sparked renewed threats from the Turkish government to cross over into Iraq to pursue the fighters. [22]

On the 17th of October 2007, the Turkish parliament approved a military incursion into Iraq to pursue the PKK fighters. The vote for incursion won with an overwhelming 507 to 19.[23] Action was delayed on request by the US government on the condition that "swift steps" were taken to deal with the rebels.

Just five days later on October 22nd, BBC reported another PKK ambush that left 12 more Turkish soldiers dead with an additional eight more missing.[24] According to The Independent, the October 22nd attack happened when PKK rebels blew up a bridge located just three miles (5 km) from the border with Iraq, when a 12-vehicle Turkish military convoy was crossing it. The attack left 17 Turkish soldiers dead and some were taken prisoners. Turkey reported that 32 rebels were also killed in the raid [25].

On December 16th, 2007, Turkish Armed Forces started the biggest attack to Kurdish camps at Northern Iraq. Turkish Air Force F16s and F4s using night vision systems destroyed main camp at Kandil with Zap, AvaÅŸin and Hakurk camps.

I don't know, Jeremy, it just does not sound to me as though the enlightened Turkish state is as free of terrorism as you claim, nor do they really seem to be employing your supposed gentle methods of killing their enemies with kindness.

[full nelson]

I'll have to go with Jon on this one. To say that Turkey deals kindly with terrorists or even civil disobedience is blatantly false. Terrorist attacks have also been frequent since 2002 from other organizations such as the Kurdistan Freedom Falcons.

[Jeremy]

Turkey's policy is to target the people that they profile as potential terrorists and to give them better health services, gifts on religious days, cheaper education, counselling and to attempt to better engage them with the community.

[Guest_1]

Turkey's policy is to target the people that they profile as potential terrorists and to give them better health services, gifts on religious days, cheaper education, counselling and to attempt to better engage them with the community.

Uh huh...

And the already terrorists?

[Jeremy]

Is a different issue. What's the point of having a discussion, if I post up sources from somebody regarded as the world's leading expert on an issue, and nobody reads them?

[crazylegs32]

Terrorist is a joke of a term.

[Krafty]

Terrorist is a joke of a term.

How is it a joke term? A terrorist is someone who deliberately targets civilians in violent acts.

[Bringerofpie]

Terrorist is a joke of a term.

How is it a joke term? A terrorist is someone who deliberately targets civilians in violent acts.

I was under the impression that terrorism had more to do with terror than with violence.

[Krafty]

I'm in a class that deals with both nuclear weapons and terrorism and my professor has a long list of credentials (he advises Congress on various topics involved with nuclear weapons and terrorism). According to my professor, it cannot be considered terrorism unless there is violence or a threat of violence that is deliberately targeted at civilians.

That's why a term such as cyberterrorism is illogical (since there is no violence or threat of violence).

[Krafty]

I accidentally hit Submit before I finished what I was going to say. One of the goals of terrorism is to elicit a reaction and instill fear in their adversary, but terrorists achieve this through violence targeted against civilians.

[Bringerofpie]

It sounded like you were talking about the threat of violence. You don't ever have to intend to be violent, if you're adversary believes you will be.

[Krafty]

It sounded like you were talking about the threat of violence. You don't ever have to intend to be violent, if you're adversary believes you will be.

Yea, sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

[Jeremy]

I think the issue with terrorism is that you're targeting a method of achieving goals without dealing with the people or their goals.

It's like; we arrest people when they murder other people, but does that stop the murders from happening? Of course it doesn't, if you want to stop the murder, you need to either treat the murder before they commit their crime for whatever mental illness they have or you need to find out why they want to murder somebody and address their concern.


So fighting a "war" on terrorism is as successful as a "war" on murderers. What we really want to do, is stop people turning to the method of terrorism, rather than trying to kill the people once they have.

[Guest_1]

http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nl/con ... ct=3698367

[Guest_1]

http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nl/con ... ct=3698367

Do the champions of human rights for Palestinians care when little Palestinian Children are killed by PM Ismail Haniyeh's Troops? No Of course not. Do they craft resolutions condemning the killing and raping of women in Darfur.

So when UN Watch, an NGO delivers a speech at the UN exposing the blatant hipocrasy of the leaders of the Arab, Persian-Mideast nations who solely draft resolutions condemning Israel for the "occupation of Palestine." Yet, stay silent when Palestinian children are killed as collateral by rival Palestinian terror groups! NEVER DO THEY SPEAK OUT word when this happens on a daily basis throughout the world... It is only when they can't paint Israel as the culprit, the voices Human Rights on this committee lay silent.

Listen to the UN official's response at the end. You will see that they mock the UN Watch Representative and warn him not to speak out for global human rights again.

-quoted from someone




*double post, please replace first*

[Guest_1]

How do you make peace with animals like this?


http://american-infidels.com/2008/03/18 ... i-teens-2/