Evolution

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 26 Mar 2008 01:50

Well it depends on what you think 'matters'. Without evolution we wouldn't be here. Depends on whether you think that matters or not.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 26 Mar 2008 04:26

Tsiangkun wrote:As I am verifying the integrity of my first synthetic
gene this week, I'm wondering

does it matter " if " "evolution" occurs or not ?

Even if things haven't been changing for millions of
years, things are changing now.

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you really asking if it matters if people believe in evolution or not. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with, is people lying to children and teaching them things that are not true, especially when those teachings don't just have an impact on whether the child believes dinosaurs existed with humans or not, which is obviously a trivial issue, but with things like sex, repression, guilt etc. I also am a very strong "believer" in scientific method, and that means criticising everything that is wrong - it means looking for the actual truth, not the things that you'd like to be true, or even the things that would make the world better if everybody thought they were true, even if they weren't. I think it's very obvious that the scientific discoveries that have led to things like penicillin, the internet, sanitation etc. have made the world a better place, even when you take into account the bad things that have been outcomes of science as well. 30,000 years ago about 30% of people died from violent deaths. In the 20th century when we had 2 world wars, atomic bombs dropped on cities, the holocaust etc. we also had the lowest rate of violent deaths in any century at less than 1%. Clearly enormous progress was made and we can see infinite potential for more.

So I see science and scientific method as creating massive progress, and I see religion and superstition, especially when it's used directly to counter known facts, as directly harmful. In creating uncertainty and misunderstanding around some aspects of science through manipulation and lying, they're really undermining science as a whole. So yeah, I do think it matters.

Whether we think it matters or not will obviously not have any impact on whether evolution occurs or not, but it certainly can have an effect on how we behave as a society. I look at Christianity prior to the enlightenment and I find it impossible to understand how people can consider it a "good" religion or see anything positive in it. What we see is that there was a philosophical movement that led to people completely changing their morals, whether they were Christian or not. We see the birth of atheism, we see the beginning of the end of slavery and torture and we see the death of "Christian values." Today's "Christian values" were born alongside atheism and have nothing to do with the first 1500 years of Christianity. Judaism and Islam, and indeed Hinduism and Buddhism are certainly not any better. They do have real impacts on the world, and they are not positive impacts.

Anyway there is an hilarious post on the New Scientist blog about Expelled;

http://www.newscientist.com/blog/shorts ... enced.html

Definitely worth a read.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 28 Mar 2008 14:43

More hilarity;

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 ... behave.php

Basically the Expelled team had a phone conference for the media where they could email through questions. PZ Myers, who is one of the "stars" of the expelled movie, but was also not told what the film was about or what it was called (he was giving a "working title" name, even though the website name; "expelled the movie" had been registered...), called up a little early and happened to hear to the number to call to actually be able to participate in the phone conference, rather than just listen...

Guest_1 · Post by **Guest_1** » 30 Mar 2008 13:29

Jeremy wrote:[Whether we think it matters or not will obviously not have any impact on whether evolution occurs or not, but it certainly can have an effect on how we behave as a society. I look at Christianity prior to the enlightenment and I find it impossible to understand how people can consider it a "good" religion or see anything positive in it. What we see is that there was a philosophical movement that led to people completely changing their morals, whether they were Christian or not. We see the birth of atheism, we see the beginning of the end of slavery and torture and we see the death of "Christian values." Today's "Christian values" were born alongside atheism and have nothing to do with the first 1500 years of Christianity. Judaism and Islam, and indeed Hinduism and Buddhism are certainly not any better. They do have real impacts on the world, and they are not positive impacts.

You're clearly wrong. A) Christian values are usually directly the opposite of Jewish values
B) Morality is only here in the world because of the Jews
C) Take a look at the history of the world and ancient civilizations practice of infanticide. Our lack of human sacrifice for the most part today is completely credited-even by most secular scholars-to the Jews

I've also never heard anything from a Rabbi contradicting evolution and in fact, Aish HaTorah, one of the largest institutions in present day Jewry utilizes evolution as support for the Torah.

The Rambam, one of the greatest sages of the Talmud says to use science as a way of connecting to G-d and that was the accepted opinion of the time, 1500 years ago.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 31 Mar 2008 04:42

lol.

Utter rubbish. I honestly can't believe what an ignorant self centred view you have.

Let me ask a very simple question;

In Indigenous Australian culture, as in most cultures, there is a complex moral law. Where did that come from? The Jews? Why didn't many Aboriginal tribes practice human sacrifice? The Jews?

Can I use your quote in the future to demonstrate how religion makes people stupid?

Don't bother posting on this topic again until you read this book;

http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Minds-Natur ... 0060780703

Slowsis · Post by **Slowsis** » 31 Mar 2008 17:55

MarvlMan wrote:A) Christian values are usually directly the opposite of Jewish values
B) Morality is only here in the world because of the Jews
C) Take a look at the history of the world and ancient civilizations practice of infanticide. Our lack of human sacrifice for the most part today is completely credited-even by most secular scholars-to the Jews

Hes right you know.....if it wasn't for the Jews I'd kill babies all the time.

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 31 Mar 2008 22:39

Slowsis wrote:
MarvlMan wrote:A) Christian values are usually directly the opposite of Jewish values
B) Morality is only here in the world because of the Jews
C) Take a look at the history of the world and ancient civilizations practice of infanticide. Our lack of human sacrifice for the most part today is completely credited-even by most secular scholars-to the Jews
Hes right you know.....if it wasn't for the Jews I'd kill babies all the time.

Haha. Silly marvlman...

gMoney · Post by **gMoney** » 04 Apr 2008 21:25

They call it "evilution" for a reason. You're all going to hell.

james · Post by **james** » 05 Apr 2008 03:33

hell is listening to you nubs blathering on ad infinitum

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 19 Apr 2008 18:04

Check it out; yet another example of evolution actually being observed occurring right in front of us. No faith needed to "believe" in evolution, all you need to do is move a species of animal with shortish generations to a new location and record how it changes.

http://scienceblogs.com/zooillogix/2008 ... lution.php

The "science is just another kind of religion" argument has been cropping up again a bit recently in the blogosphere. Well if science is a religion, it's the religion of believing the things you can go out and test for yourself.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 22 Apr 2008 05:43

Great letter from Richard Dawkins about the new film Expelled

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2488, ... rd-Dawkins

dazza · Post by **dazza** » 22 Apr 2008 14:55

Jeremy wrote: The "science is just another kind of religion" argument has been cropping up again a bit recently in the blogosphere. Well if science is a religion, it's the religion of believing the things you can go out and test for yourself.

and thats exactly how true religion/spirituality works .
no need for all the mythical stuff, ancient restrictions that are
often more than just outdated or a concept of "god" as a fatherly
or other person .
there is no way i can "scientifically" prove, that Moses parted the red
sea, but there is a "scientific" way to go about meditation, for example.

you follow the injunction, do the experiment, and verify/falsify your
results in a group of equals ( i.e. others that underwent the same proceedings) .

same process as in science, but it takes longer and it reaches into a different realm of human experience .

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 24 Apr 2008 17:47

Yeah well if we want to redefine "religion" or "spirituality" to mean whatever we'd like it to mean, then you're right. If we stick with the standard accepted definitions of those words than you're not.

Meditation by itself is neither spiritual nor religious. The two biggest proponents of meditation amongst the science writers that I read are Sam Harris, who wrote The End of Faith and thinks all religion harms humanity, and Susan Blackmore, who is a consulting editor to The Skeptical Enquirer. Both these people have spent their careers studying meditation and both of them are very strongly anti-religious.

Anything that can be experienced can be part of science. Science is a method of dealing with questions. Anything that you can ask a question about, you can attempt to answer using science, and anytime you attempt to answer a question using science, you're part of science.