New competition at Worlds : STP

mitko · Post by **mitko** » 31 May 2008 17:15

ianek wrote:A bad difficulty system will push players to choose certain type of moves for the wrong reasons.

Thumbs up.

sen · Post by **sen** » 31 May 2008 20:06

Adds isn't a difficulty system. It is a classification system that many people have decided to treat like a difficulty system. The system isn't broken. Our view of it is.

ianek · Post by **ianek** » 31 May 2008 21:16

Sen, take a look at this:
http://www.footbag.org/freestyle/concepts.html

"Each of the following is what makes up the technical difficulty of a freestyle move. Each of these is equal to one Add (element of difficulty)."

You are saying that even IFPA is wrong!

A classification system means you put elements in some categories, but why do the add system give points to each categories and cumulate them?. I bet it's because it's a difficulty system. And why do butterfly and stepping set doesn't get an add for symposium, even if they perfectly fit it's definition? because some people, many years ago, found those moves not difficult enough to get an add.

SergeyKozlov · Post by **SergeyKozlov** » 31 May 2008 22:35

Ianek, I really liked your circles innovation, and i will support any new competition ideas, but not instead of basic one's

And i wish circles become more official this year

james · Post by **james** » 01 Jun 2008 01:03

you can't escape adds. I can't stand when people hate on adds.

your (ianik) examples were a perfect example of the disparity between the 'add' and the 'actual' difficulty of the move. BUT the add system was/is more of a descriptive than technical way to describe all the crazy shit we do with our blades.
It's kind of hard to objectively decide what movement of the leg is harder than another. Obviously a double down is harder than say a clipper stall. There are let's say 'additional degrees of difficulty' between them. In reality the line between the 'difficulty' of one move and another blurs. There can never be a completely objective system to judge footbag.
Just think of the add system as descriptive. It describes what's happening. All experienced players know what's difficult. They know the ultimate coolness of linking, of freshness, of badassery.
That shit can't be counted.

We're trying to find competitive formats that explore all our abilities. But
in my opinion, they're all awesome. I love routines, shred30, sick 1, sick 3, STP, (big ten is a bit unwieldy).

BUT ultimately it will always be FREESTYLE FOOTBAG.

my point is, you all say 'fuck adds'...but it's our roots. Love adds. Just don't confuse them with linking, style or difficulty.
It's descriptive baby.
don't get hung up on it

EDIT: YA tony, what you said

mitko · Post by **mitko** » 01 Jun 2008 02:14

I've always considered the Add System as a system which explains how many components has a trick, not its difficulty level. I think this is the way that people should see it as well.
I support the idea for this new competition. Lets give it a try.

sen · Post by **sen** » 01 Jun 2008 16:44

I support STP, too.

Yes Ianek. I think The IFPA is wrong. Anyone Who feels The Add system measures difficulty is wrong, because it doesn't. Sure, it was created to measure difficulty. It Just doesn't do it anymore. Our tricks have become too complex and our styles too different for Adds to be effective.
STP is a great idea, But it doesn't replace What Shred30 does.

Nathan · Post by **Nathan** » 01 Jun 2008 17:55

I would like to argue that the add system does little to describe or explain a trick, like you guys are saying. jobs notation describes tricks, adds is just used along with jobs. so if adds also don't show difficulty, what is the point? the only reason we can't escape adds is that we are telling new players they still matter.

Jorden · Post by **Jorden** » 02 Jun 2008 00:49

STP sounds ok.

I hate Shred 30.

ianek · Post by **ianek** » 03 Jun 2008 19:57

i've emailed Dexter about having at least 1 round of shred30 and make STP also just 1 round for a small test.

that's what he answered:

we are not including shred30.

Now i'll told you how everything happend:

i've always hated the add system and also shred30 because it's based on it. At Worlds last year i organized a meeting about the future of our sport, with Vasek, Honza, Jorden, Dave Clavens, Tina, Sebastien D and Wiktor. We talked about a lot of things and shred30 was one of it. I was surprised to see everyone also hated it. (except Dave which said it was getting lame with the dadacurve and some changes needed to be done to shred30). so i talked about my STP project and they all said it was a good idea. But Honza said it should be objective judging. Next day i talked to Steve Goldberg about STP and he also said it should be objective judging. So Steve explained to me how could an objective judging system work, but i found it complicated and i felt it was too robotic. (and not enough FREEstyle). So i've started to work on STP document. I tried to find how an objective judging system could work (without adds) and i couldn't found any solution. During winter i've exchanged emails with mostly Jorden, Honza, Tina and Wiktor about how should STP be and by end of March we felt it was good enough to TRY it. So Honza explained to whole story to Worlds commitee (which Dexter is the main guy) and they decided to cancel shred30 and give a try to STP. By the time everyting was 100% confirmed it was mid-Mai. Then i've started this topic.

----------------------------------------

Within the next few days, i'll write a text on how should STP look like more precisely, so people will know more how to get ready for it.

ObArA'BaRs · Post by **ObArA'BaRs** » 03 Jun 2008 22:53

Not having shred 30 at worlds would be the stupidest shit ever.

JeffRichards · Post by **JeffRichards** » 03 Jun 2008 23:17

the Executioner wrote:Replacing an established event like shred 30--which people have already put routines together for--with a new experimental event, this close to the World Championships, seems to me to be a bit irresponsible.

ObArA'BaRs wrote:Not having shred 30 at worlds would be the stupidest shit ever.

Agreed.

I think STP will be cool but it really sucks for those who had a shred 30 planned...

LEGOMAN · Post by **LEGOMAN** » 03 Jun 2008 23:59

why dont we just get rid of all the fucking competitions?

max · Post by **max** » 04 Jun 2008 00:41

It's also strange that we learn about this [shred 30 cancellation] on a forum topic about a new untested event...

barnieshankman · Post by **barnieshankman** » 04 Jun 2008 00:44

oh my jod! i was practising my shred30 for a long time for world champonships and now i cant do it now. i don get what stone temple pilets have to do with my shed 30 or im stupid or something lol

so im ohhhhhhhhhh wait, i get it, its exactly like a rotine but its only 30 or 45 secends and they pick your music for you and they pick nothing everytime oh and choreography obviusly doesnt mattar. haha i get it know.

i also don get why somone would think the adds systems defines diffeculty, that sounds STuPid lol becuz it descrives compwnetz. even nubz now that hahahahahahahahaha doesnt it seam a lil hardish to make a new comp insteed of refineing shred30. lol my broter wouldnt like thes.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 04 Jun 2008 04:51

incoherent, and yet so observant and meaningful.

i was this [ ] close to making the stone temple pilots joke too.

Asmus · Post by **Asmus** » 04 Jun 2008 10:40

Seriously,
who already has a shred30 planned by now?

I think this is a great idea and I am thinking about competing.

I can't wait to see how well this could be done by a world class shredder with a planned program!

sen · Post by **sen** » 04 Jun 2008 11:03

Asmus wrote:Seriously,
who already has a shred30 planned by now?

A serious competitor.

professor · Post by **professor** » 04 Jun 2008 12:34

Ok, so everyone wants to change the add system or come up with something better, right? I disagree. I say we don't use any sort of difficulty system. Think about any other "trick" based sport. Skating, skateboarding, blading, snowboarding, motocross, etc. Do they have difficulty ratings for each trick or element? Nope. They have names so everyone knows what they're talking about, but no specific difficulty ratings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU_Judging_System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freestyle_ ... ing_tricks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_snowboard_tricks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_ska ... ne_skating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freestyle_Motocross

They do have difficulty scoring, but it is subjective. There is a general consensus on what tricks are more difficult than others, just like all of us know that a toe set inspinning simp swirl is harder than a ripwalk. What most of them do have though, is categories/definitions for elements in the tricks (ADDs anyone?). The number of ADDs can define the number and type of elements a trick is made up of. It's good for categorization, sorting, and describing tricks, but not for overall difficulty.

ADDs are not good for judging difficulty because in terms of difficulty, footbag tricks are not equal to the sum of their parts. Meaning although ducking and spinning are pretty much equally difficult, pixie + ducking + clip is much easier than pixie + spinning + clip.

If you ask me, I don't like Shred30, but I understand people's frustration over the cancellation of Shred30 so close to the event. Lots of hard work down the drain pretty much.

Although the STP sounds interesting, I don't feel like it is a necessary addition to footbag competition. I feel it is too similar to Routines. It seems as if it was just created for the sole purpose to replace Shred30. Why must we always replace things? Just get rid of Shred 30. If we find there is a skill in footbag that is not being represented by the current competitions, then create a new event, but we shouldn't be creating competitions to try and replace current inadequate competitions.

So the way I see it Routines & Circle are the "meta" competitions. Meaning they both require many if not all the footbag skills. The main difference being Routines are planned & solo, whereas Circle is improvisational & group. Big 1, Sick 3, & Rippin' Run are smaller specialized events that work one main skill. E.g. Rippin' Run works consistency.

What does Shred30 work most? Add-hunting ability? Shuffle ability? It does work important skills, but I don't feel it works enough skills to be a "meta" competition, but is not specific enough to be a specialized event. Meaning there really is no use for it because it's redundant and STP seems like it would have the same problem.

SergeyKozlov · Post by **SergeyKozlov** » 04 Jun 2008 20:36

I think that shred30 should BE, cuz there is no judges that giving paints (so they can't make a mistake(a human factor), so a player who has planed his shred30, and who doing his best performing it, will gain that maximum of point that he can, and the judge can't mess it up some how.

If we have defects in ADDs system we should correct them, not scratch shred30 out