Fearless 55 vs Modified Stitchers

JoshC. · Post by **JoshC.** » 08 Jul 2008 08:54

I was wondering, why is the Fearless 55 from FreedomFootbags so expensive ($40) compared to the best stitchers on modified. Is it really worth it to spend that much on a high quality bag when you can get high quality bags that are a lot cheaper here on modified. I have never played with one, so i am just trying to get a sense of whether or not its worth it.

mosher · Post by **mosher** » 08 Jul 2008 09:34

Bags are worth $40. If I start stitching again I won't charge less than that.

The only reason anyone on modified charges less than that is because they live at home and the money just goes to buy them chips instead of keeping them alive. Oh, and because everyone else charges $30ish nobody wants to be a jerk and charge more.

There are many many good stitchers and a good bag isn't too hard to find. I'd say stick with the more expensive ones, otherwise you're ripping the stitcher off.

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 08 Jul 2008 09:53

I'm thinking of raising my prices again. Because of the U.S. recession, and because of what I'm about to go into detail on my post.

I'm thinking of switching the filler of my bags to something better. Steel doesn't please my standards of footbag playability these days. In fact, it truly disappoints me, especially in humid weather, how quickly steel-filled bags just literally rust. I've stressed myself and others on bag care and whatever, but there's always a limit to suggesting that type of advice.

I've given up on preventing rust to settle in my bags, since there are always times when you can't go to wash a bag to prevent the process (from sweat and grime). Also, if you're in a humid environment, rusting is imminent (some of my bags and a Peng bag had rusted the past two months). However, planetfootbag steel fill has consistently met my standards, and it doesn't rust at all.

I'm thinking about switching to lead and tungsten. I'm willing to shell out the extra money for these fillers (and charging higher prices to fit these means), and they will outperform steel in so many ways. I'm also going to fix my template to make my bags perform better in regards to my change in filler. I just find bags filled with lead and tungsten to be more enjoyable than my old filler, and I want to make that change for myself and for people that are interested (and still interested) in my bags. Yes, I know, I haven't stitched in a good long while.

I have a lot of comments about the Fearless 55 that I don't like, but that's just my review of the bag. Really though, in terms of pricing, I just need the extra cash to help me support my living and my future.

Chase · Post by **Chase** » 08 Jul 2008 10:08

I have to disagree...

$40 is just too much for a bag, at too many stitchers charge waaaay more than their bags are worth...

I guess if someone is getting tons of orders, $40 is a reasonable price, it becomes a business.

I sell mine for less, not because I'm provided for, or they are crappy bags. I sell mine for less for a number of reasons:

A: No one knows who I am... If I were some hot shot shredder that has been around for years I'm sure my name alone would carry my bags (such is the case for some people)

B: I have a job, it pays pretty well.

C: I make bags while watching tv, or listening to the radio. Things I would be doing anyway. I don't expect to make $10-$15/hr stitching... It's more of a personal accomplishment...

At a tournament you can actually feel a bag, and judge it right there before you buy, and you can often find some badass bags. If you're spending more than $30 you had better know exactly what's coming your way, or there's a chance you could have bought 2 better bags for the same price...

All in all, if I didn't stitch, but knew what a truly awesome bag felt like, I would absolutely never pay $40 for a bag...

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 08 Jul 2008 12:20

If stitching were a fun recreational activity, I would like to think that charging bags at $25-35 would be a decent medium. However, if we keep taking this mentality into heart consistently (say, decade after decade), how will the footbag business thrive further? Part of pushing footbag as a sport is spreading the activity of the sport, but in most regards business and economics have to wedge in and push it to higher heights.

I just think that people (tourists or common folk) won't take this sport seriously because of the equipment we use. Cut-up shoes, small little "bean bags," extra short-shorts... etc. Besides the latter, we are being under-represented for a sport we are lovingly priviledged to play and dedicate hours of our time toward because of aesthetic reasons. If we are serious in spending hours and hours training to get better, play better, and compete to gain acknowledgement from the community and the public, shouldn't our equipment reflect that as well?

At least planetfootbag is pushing the production of the Quantum shoe to newer and better heights, being solely provided and funded by the players themselves. Still, let's think about this for a moment. When will a true footbag shoe become accessible to the public at reasonable prices? When it's not funded by the players themselves, but by self-made organizations or higher brandname organizations finding a demand for it. Shouldn't the footbag, the materialistic item needed for our sport, follow the same route? When will there be a 32-panel footbag that won't suck for footbag freestyle become accessible to the public? Economically, being stoic and making prices consistent is a bad thing, since there won't be a change in demand since there is no change in sales consistency and buyer feedback/demand. Of course, as stitchers, we make and sell our own bags independently, and therefore become self-employed into this realm of economics. Unless stitchers band together to sell footbags benefitting under a united organization would it become a business, and thus allow the opportunity to reach higher goals, higher demands, and higher income. In that method of thinking, raising the price of a 32 isn't so bad.

However, from the ways things are right now, all stitchers are self-employed, and through their craft of stitching they earn the amount of income set by the amount of effort they put in. There won't be a raise in income or business potential unless you raise your prices.

Of course, if there were footbags made solely by machine, then the raise in prices wouldn't be so starkly negative. However, from all of the footbags I've come across, nearly all of the ones not made by reputable footbag freestylers/stitchers were made from sweatshop work, and I'm sure as hell most of them are under-represented as well. In fact, I've never come across a machine-made footbag before.

If the process of making a footbag were not a recreational activity, but more seriously focused for work and performance, then it'll be much more worthwhile to expand this toward the public eye. I mean, if Vasek is promoting Pepsi with football freestyle and footbag freestyle - given that publicity - wouldn't it be easier for the consumer to find out an online store like planetfootbag [dot com] or freedomfootbags [dot com] to buy the right types of equipment that Vasek has used, with no fuss whatsoever? Why get a bag from some nobody (mind the insult) who they don't know personally to make a bag for them through PM or e-mail?

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 08 Jul 2008 12:43

mosher wrote:The only reason anyone on modified charges less than that is because they live at home and the money just goes to buy them chips instead of keeping them alive.

While I can respect and understand that stitchers charge $40, the reason I charge ridiculously cheap is because I started stitching so that I wouldn't have to pay an arm and a leg for a bag, and I want others to be able to afford a nice bag too. Like Tom said, the bags are totally worth $40, considering the work that goes into them, but because of my situation, I wouldn't feel right charging that much.

Jeremy Mirken made the point that it isn't a job, just a hobby (is that why he quit?), so I'm not expecting to make what I make at my "real job" for a hacky sack. I do it because I like to, not to make money. So, also, on that point, stitching is likely a big part of Richie's (the guy who makes the Fearless 55s...) livelihood and he's been doing it for over 10 years.

Jordan · Post by **Jordan** » 08 Jul 2008 12:58

im starting to stitch and I have attempted, and it is a lot of hard work...

and I have 3 of Richies 55's (only one of which I paid $40 for) and I would have to say that they are a work of art... They are worth the money, and after attempting my first bag the other day I would have to say that you stitchers out there that make bags for $15 are out of your minds... Well, although we love your prices, you are doing the footbag community a huge favor by putting such an amazing price on something that should be worth $35 to $40 easily.

anywho, I would consider it a job in some peoples lives, and a hobby in some others, but all in all... Its a lot of hard work regardless.

Alf · Post by **Alf** » 08 Jul 2008 13:45

yeah, that's right! it depends on the stitcher, for some it's their real job!!!(whats totaly okay, cause they push he sport like no one else) for others like me, it's just a hobby! I do it for fun!
I take all the time I need for finishing a bag (in my case, way tooo long, sry for that) but my real job (being a student) is way more important!!!

In my oppinion, stitching a footbag is more like arts!
and so it's really okay, to pay more money, for someone who's known by name (like Richard) and to pay less for stitchers, that are not known (like me).

But, everybody can set a price for their bag by their own, that they think, represents their product!!!
So if you want 40 bucks for your bag, just tell the people to pay that much, and I think, footbaggers will pay it, if your bags are good enough!!!

Maybe we should all connect and make our own little joint-venture, like a stitchers co-operation!

One or two are making the organisational stuff, like making adverticement and opening a internet market, and all other stitchers are sewing bags and sell them over that platform!!!

A bit like modified but only for selling footbags!!!

think about that!!!!

JoshC. · Post by **JoshC.** » 08 Jul 2008 16:57

I am really glad this thread has sparked such good conversation. Thanks for the opinions, they are really helpful. Their is a lot very good ideas here.

ObArA'BaRs · Post by **ObArA'BaRs** » 08 Jul 2008 22:52

When did stitching become more about the money and not about helping out the sport?

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 09 Jul 2008 00:05

First of all, this thread is hopelessly off topic, but since I have acknowledged that and because I have no information relevant to the original topic to add, I will post this:

I started stitching because i thought 30 was a lot to pay for a bag. I started selling for 20 bucks. As my product got better, my price went up. Originally, I was stitching for fun, but when people start to like your product and when word gets out you're a good stitcher, a casual hobby becomes an obligation, obligations with deadlines. When your list of bags to make is 15-long and there is no end in sight, when all of your free time is spent stitching, you start to realize that stitching for 20-30 bucks is pointless, that the sacrifice you're making, stitching instead of spending time with people you like, is pointless and not worth it. That is why I started to charge more, and ultimately to stop stitching altogether. I realized I had better things to do. I never stitched to help the sport.

I would hazard a guess that 90% of stitchers stop either bc of the time commitment or the realization that the compensation is pitiful.

When you buy a bag from Richie, you're supporting a man who has devoted his life to playing and creating footbags for the ever-increasing demand around the US. He has way more than 10 years of stitching experience, more like 18 to 20.

Wasabi · Post by **Wasabi** » 09 Jul 2008 08:00

This topic IS hopelessly off-topic. However, the concerns of the topic creator brought up an age-old argument of whether investing on affordable bags is the right thing to do, when you have a bag that is over-priced is assumed to play better as well.

And Chris, unless you stitch yourself, I doubt you can understand the amount of stress and obligation stitchers give to the community. Benefiting the community is one thing, but the fact of the matter is is that we don't live in a regionally communal society. We all live our own independent lives, in a capitalistic society. Jeremy hit the nail on the head; once you become well-known for your craft, you build up a list of people that are interested in your product, and you slave over them time and time again with little social life. You make and base your own income; you calculate the amount of hours it takes for you to make a bag in terms of compensation; that is what self-employment is all about, and it sucks when you feel that you aren't fully compensated.

But I'll be frank and put my disapproval of stitching aside (from this economic standpoint of mine) and say that there are bags that play better than a Fearless 55 and are cheaper as well. Jozef Palencar, Sergey Kozlov, Matt Cross and Cale McCoy come to mind. In fact, for $50, a Fletcher Funk bag will play a lot better than a Fearless 55. It's really based on the construction of the 32, and in general the size of a golfball is the standard for footbags in general. A Fearless 55 is really, really small, and I just don't approve of its size at all.

However, I've played with many good abshires, made from facile, and they were awesome once they are fully broken-in. Dispel the myth about an abshire taking a 1.5 months - 2 months to fully break-in. Bags break-in from the amount of effort you put into breaking them in.

Chase · Post by **Chase** » 09 Jul 2008 08:21

Here is where I feel the $40 price becomes appropriate. There are a ton of 55s out there, Richie has been stitching forever, and it's quite common to come across one of this bags. After seeing said bag, it's really easy to find one too. Lots of us may stitch cheaper bags that play better, but we don't have hundreds of bags out there...

Also in the case of Funk. He just doesn't have the drive to stitch anymore, but there is still a demand for his bags. So if you REALLY REALLY want one...

there are however, too many cases where someone pays an extra $10-$15 to just say "This bag was made by Shred Head Fred" But that's more the consumers fault for grouping two incredibly different skills.

ObArA'BaRs · Post by **ObArA'BaRs** » 09 Jul 2008 18:11

Senor Grommet wrote: I started stitching because i thought 30 was a lot to pay for a bag. I started selling for 20 bucks. As my product got better, my price went up. Originally, I was stitching for fun, but when people start to like your product and when word gets out you're a good stitcher, a casual hobby becomes an obligation, obligations with deadlines. When your list of bags to make is 15-long and there is no end in sight, when all of your free time is spent stitching, you start to realize that stitching for 20-30 bucks is pointless, that the sacrifice you're making, stitching instead of spending time with people you like, is pointless and not worth it. That is why I started to charge more, and ultimately to stop stitching altogether. I realized I had better things to do. I never stitched to help the sport.

I would hazard a guess that 90% of stitchers stop either bc of the time commitment or the realization that the compensation is pitiful.

Guess that answers my question.

Im still sure there are stitchers out there that love stitching for the hell of it though and do it to encourage people into joining and enjoying the sport. That is all

Guydro · Post by **Guydro** » 10 Jul 2008 06:27

BUY ONE OF EACH KIND. Suport all of the stitchers on modified. Hell Richie is on here too. I bought bags from him here and there. I buy them with my chip money. So I don't get fat.

calemccoy · Post by **calemccoy** » 10 Jul 2008 11:26

there are about 20 stitchers on modified..... w/ an average price of around 28 dollars, to be safe. that's 560 dollars. i dont have that much to spare =]

anyways, awhile ago i wrote up a big reply to this thread, and then accidentally deleted it, so ill try to give my two cents again.

personally, i stitch for a few reasons. to make money when i make bags for others, and for personal satisfaction when i make it for myself. i view each bag as like an art project, and i like art. i would prefer just buying all the materials and stitching and endless amount of bags for myself, but i also like it when i see big names like lon smith, david clavens, and nick landes playing with my bags and hitting blurriests and stuff. that really makes me smile, and its another reason i stitch.

as far as why i charge what i do.... im not THAT well known yet. i dont have enough bags out there to be realistically asking for upwards of 30 dollars a pop. once im better known and there is a higher demand for my bags, and people actually know how well my bags play before they buy one, wether it be from past experience with one of my bags or just sheer reputation. i dont think it would be right for me to ask for as much as richie, who has been stitching for 20x as long as me. so thats my stand.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 10 Jul 2008 12:36

Richie has been selling bags to anyone, and everyone, for the 10 years I've known him, and has been stitching closer to 20 years now.

There might be equally good bags on the market today, but there is no other stitcher who has made such a long term commitment to supply bags to the world.

Richie's bags are $40 because he is a professional. His bags stay on the market and evolve with the demands of the top players, unlike all the johnny come lately stitchers that make 50-100 bags in their career and disappear.

Or, to put it another way, anyone can call Richie today and say they need 40 bags. Richie will sit down and fill the order. Seriously. Is there another stitcher on modified ready to fill one 40 bag order after another, month after month, year after year ? That's why Richie can charge more, he fills his contracts and doesn't have a cute little "waiting list".

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 10 Jul 2008 13:07

Yeah I admire Richie for sticking to it. He really churns out those bags like a champ. I just wish he'd switch back to the standard hex/pent model. The 9/10s just don't break in that well, and they look like crap cuz half of the panels are different sizes. Not all of them, but a lot of them are like that.

I'm not knocking his stitching, I couldn't do any better. Try stitching 12 near-circles to 20 nonagons and see how pretty it comes out.

Anyway he was telling me the reason he went to 9 and 10 sided panels instead of hexes and pents is because he was threatened to be sued by a company that patented the standard 32 panel footbag model around 5 or so years ago. Now to my knowledge, the patent expired a couple years ago or more, and everyone's free to make standard 32s without worrying about patent-infringement.

As far as customer service goes, Richie has an extremely strong ethic for that. Repairing/replacing bags, filling orders, etc. He and Daryl Genz make a great team because they're both so dedicated to that side of footbag.

I feel the 5/6 is superior to the 9/10 for the reasons I mentioned earlier. However, once broken in, they're both fine bags. That can be said about practically any bag though. The 9/10 will also break down faster after break in IMO because it took so much wear to even get it to playing standards. I don't know, maybe he could sell both, I know I'd buy a 5/6 model. He's so good at stitching he's able to have multiple product lines. I could never keep up with that.

I think it'd be just as easy for Richie to type up a questionnaire/survey to all of his clients and potential clients to fill out for feedback on what they'd like to see out of his products. If he's truly dedicated to the players, let the players influence his bags.

/2c

mc · Post by mc » 10 Jul 2008 13:50

C07 wrote:
A: No one knows who I am... If I were some hot shot shredder that has been around for years I'm sure my name alone would carry my bags (such is the case for some people)

::Thumbs Up!::

except the hot shot part

richardabshire · Post by **richardabshire** » 14 Jul 2008 10:38

I have read alot of feedback on this thread and all I can say is thanks. The bags I am making now are better than the year before. Fabric thickness is leveling out in most colors. That was a big problem for the Fearless 55 facile. The Fearless 55 amaretta is super thin and can wear really fast if you don't take care of it. Don't land on this bag or you will have a torn shell and a pile of filler on the ground. My prices are cheaper if you buy from me. The reason the price is high on Freedom is to prevent newbies from wasting their money. Most of the time a newbie will buy something cheaper. My bags are design for the advance player. My service policy is rivaled by no other. The panels are more consistent now, with different types of stitch. My prices are 30.00 plus shipping. Freedom has an overhead to cover, with employees, advertising, and providing products to events for sponsorship. Keep something else in mind. This is a sport and a business. The sport can't exist without someone paying the bills. Just ask Steve Goldberg how he has put into footbag. The number would scare you. PM me for custom orders or call me at 760-429-8039. Hope this helps, Richard Abshire

Fearless 55 vs Modified Stitchers

Which is better? Considering the price, playability, break in time, and overall qualilty.

Fearless 55 vs Modified Stitchers