Shred 30 Clarification

david · Post by **david** » 19 Jul 2008 13:17

If I start my shred 30 with parkwalk, does the timer start on the toe stall or the clipper at the end of the butterfly?

If it starts on the first guiltless contact (thus, the butterfly), does this mean that if i drop the first trick I can start again?

Thanks

David

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 19 Jul 2008 23:30

Correct me if I'm wrong, but
The timer starts on first contact (Toe stall)
And counting of points starts on the first trick (Butterfly)

So even if you drop the first trick, the timer has been already started.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 19 Jul 2008 23:51

So are you allowed to start with the bag on your toe and go straight into a trick? Or would the first contact of that trick count as the time-starter? (Ie: if you started with the bag on your toe and went straight into phoenix, would the time start on the clipper, completely ignoring those 5 adds?)

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 20 Jul 2008 01:27

No. Wouldn't that be kinda stupid?

Like if you start Shred30 by throwing the bag from your hand to a Butterfly, both the point count and timer start on the same contact.

The reason why the Toe stall doesn't count for points if you start your Shred with it, is that it would lower your score and that wouldn't be fair.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 20 Jul 2008 22:49

There are no official rules about this. All the rules say is that the time limit is usually 30 seconds.

As I recall at previous worlds the rules were that the time started when you score your first add and your score starts when score your first 3 add? So if you start with a clipper, the time starts but you don't get a 2 add non unique counted towards your score. Some people could interpret this as meaning that if you place the bag on your foot to begin with and then hit a phoenix the time starts with the end of that move and you get 5 add unique. It's usual for the time to start as soon as you drop the bag onto your foot, so you're advised to place it on instead.

Given there are no official rules, I'd ask the tournament director or head judge for clarity, as it's really their decision.

professor · Post by **professor** » 22 Jul 2008 11:24

What about kicks? I assume they would be counted as non-unique 0 add contacts.

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 23 Jul 2008 00:33

I'm sure nobody wants to cause any harm to a player who wants to do a couple of kicks before starting the actual Shred. So the kicks don't count.

And if you do like Inside kick > Butterfly the timer and score count start on the Butterfly.

professor · Post by **professor** » 23 Jul 2008 09:13

No, I mean mid string.

King Monkey · Post by **King Monkey** » 23 Jul 2008 09:37

Kicks would be zero add contacts, wouldnt they?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 23 Jul 2008 09:45

Correct

. Come on footbag chat or msn or facebook jan.

professor · Post by **professor** » 23 Jul 2008 10:28

Ok, so if I get this right...

If I place the bag on my clipper the time does not start yet. So, I can try a montage as my first trick. If I hit it the time starts and I get a 7 add unique contact. If I drop the montage, the time starts on the drop, but the drop is not counted in my score and I can drop into a double down or whatever as my first adds.

Furthermore, after my initial dropped montage I can drop to clip and attempt the montage again. If I hit it, I get a 7 add unique as my first contact. If I drop it, that drop still doesn't count because I haven't hit my first trick, but I've lost 2 seconds of my time.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 23 Jul 2008 11:01

Basic kicks DO NOT count as a zero ADD contact. Kicks are not counted as a contact at all.

A drop is a zero ADD contact. A hand-catch done to avoid a drop is also a zero ADD contact (as opposed to a hand catch to seal a trick or string).

This sounds strange at first, as each kick is clearly a contact with the bag, but I think the misunderstanding really comes about because the "contacts" that we are concerned with in contest are not literally every single instance of a contact between the foot and the bag, but rather, we mean "contacts" as "attempted tricks". When we count contacts in a contest, we're really trying to count how many tricks are attempted. Similarly, drops are not the equivalent of a basic kick. Drops are typically a failed attempt at a trick (though, conceivably, one might drop in the middle of some basic kicks, so what is to be said of that?

). In contest, basic kicks are more equivalent to doing nothing at all -- for instance, basic kicks while waiting for your music to start are the equivalent of standing still while waiting for your music to start.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 23 Jul 2008 11:05

professor wrote:Ok, so if I get this right...

If I place the bag on my clipper the time does not start yet. So, I can try a montage as my first trick. If I hit it the time starts and I get a 7 add unique contact. If I drop the montage, the time starts on the drop, but the drop is not counted in my score and I can drop into a double down or whatever as my first adds.

Furthermore, after my initial dropped montage I can drop to clip and attempt the montage again. If I hit it, I get a 7 add unique as my first contact. If I drop it, that drop still doesn't count because I haven't hit my first trick, but I've lost 2 seconds of my time.

I don't think that's the case. As I said, it's really up to what the tournament director or head judge decides. I'm pretty sure if you tried what you're suggesting they'd use their common sense and hammer you for trying to cheat the system.

Good call Jon - I kick the bag so little these days I'd totally forgotten that kicks are worthless.

professor · Post by **professor** » 23 Jul 2008 13:09

Ok, so if someone bobbles a trick mid string and recovers the bag by kicking it a couple of times, wouldn't those be considered "attempted tricks". They are done purposefully to regain control of the bag. If someone did a couple toe stalls to recover they would be counted, why not a kick?

So in this situation, should the kicks be counted? I say yes.

If not, then nobody should ever recover with a stall. They should only use kicks because they essentially don't exist.

Post by **Zac Miley** » 23 Jul 2008 13:41

professor wrote:Ok, so if someone bobbles a trick mid string and recovers the bag by kicking it a couple of times, wouldn't those be considered "attempted tricks". They are done purposefully to regain control of the bag. If someone did a couple toe stalls to recover they would be counted, why not a kick?

So in this situation, should the kicks be counted? I say yes.

If not, then nobody should ever recover with a stall. They should only use kicks because they essentially don't exist.

I agree only because I don't want to rescore Bevier's Shred:30.

flash · Post by **flash** » 26 Jul 2008 08:19

For the record, I took those midstring kicks with Outsider's explanation in mind. I really don't care very much about shred 30, but those are the rules I was playing by. For clarification, would my score be potentially higher or lower by my understanding?

professor · Post by **professor** » 26 Jul 2008 10:16

Actually I think we calculated your score without the kicks because I re-scored it without the kicks and I get the same number. With the kicks added in it's only slightly lower.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 28 Jul 2008 13:27

Ok, so if someone bobbles a trick mid string and recovers the bag by kicking it a couple of times, wouldn't those be considered "attempted tricks". They are done purposefully to regain control of the bag. If someone did a couple toe stalls to recover they would be counted, why not a kick?
So in this situation, should the kicks be counted? I say yes.

Its an interesting question... And, I didn't realize we were talking about a specific instance here - I though this was a hypothetical situation. Anyway, I can see how one could make a case for counting the kicks in some way, however, I cannot support the idea of counting them as a zero-ADD contact. Thats pretty much like suggesting that a kick is equivalent to a drop. A kick is not the same as a drop, and can't be counted as such.

If not, then nobody should ever recover with a stall. They should only use kicks because they essentially don't exist.

Again, you make a pretty good point, but I think you're exaggerating the potential difference in the scored outcome, especially when you take into acount the different ways that people use kicks vs. stalls. I, for instance, sometimes bail on a trick and take two or three kicks to recover. At other times, I bail with a toe-stall, and I'm usually right back to guiltless tricks after only the one toe-stall. That is to say, you might hurt your difficulty ratio with the toe stall, but ultimately save yourself TIME, and in the Jon Schneider Book of Shred Strategy, Time Is Money, so I personally would tend to use the option that wastes the least amount of time.

Speaking of saving time, I remember how Sunil Jani, in shred contests, would sometimes recover from a mistake by simply making a hand-catch, placing the bag back onto his toe, and go straight back into shred with a butterfly, pixie butterfly, or paradon right from that toe set. That is to say, he wouldn't bother trying to recover from an error with any sort of bail, but just accept the drop that is implicit in a hand-catch of that sort, avoid the 1-ADD contact penalty by placing the bag on his toe rather than actually dropping the bag to a toe-stall, and quickly get back to busting unique guiltless shred. Its been a long time since I've seen him do that, but as I recall, he was lightning quick with that whole process -- I'm fairly sure it saved him time. (It even looked kind of cool when he did this - it sort of highlighted his intensity and competitiveness)

So, it seems to me, a screw-up is always going to cost you something in a Shred contest: you'll have to sacrafice either your ADD ratio or your time, but I think it usually takes a little bit longer to recover one's balance with kicks than with toe stalls (plus, while the toe stalls hurt your ratio, your raw ADD count is at least still increasing, whereas with the kicks, your ratio doesn't change, but your not earning any ADDs during that time either). I'll leave it to some math or accounting major to collect some data, crunch the numbers, and determine if one toe stall vs. two kicks is the most effecient way to recover form a mistake in a Shred30, but I still can't accept the notion that a kick is no better than a drop in a footbag contest.