Rieferman wrote:I applied the theory by using my wife (who knows almost nothing about what different tricks are, but does appreciate the sport when played well). Based purely on overall impression, she picked Sergey
Thanks to you and your wife for conducting that experiment. I think that it is relevant though not the dominating factor.
BTW, did I mention that I think Sergey dominated as well? Just checking.
I think that it is relevant though not the dominating factor
I think if the skills used to create the overall impression are roughly in the same league (i.e. not comparing tiltless player to genuine player) the overall impression really is the dominating factor in judging routines. Every year after worlds, we all argue these minute little points about all sorts of crazy criteria, and we justify the winner somehow. But when it comes down to it, among the top players, whoever has the most pleasing to watch routine ought to win in my opinion. Overall trick difficulty differences are usually not huge between the players that are going to place in the top 5 - at least not huge enough to outweigh the overall impression.
It's like this: If the results are controversial to the players, and if the general audience can't make sense of them without becoming a footbag fanatic, are they they the right results (and is the current method of measuring the right one)?
Sorry, I'm taking this thread way off topic probably.
Rieferman wrote:I think if the skills used to create the overall impression are roughly in the same league (i.e. not comparing tiltless player to genuine player) the overall impression really is the dominating factor in judging routines.
Hey Bob, thanks for taking your time to share your thoughts and conducting that experiment.
It's like this: If the results are controversial to the players, and if the general audience can't make sense of them without becoming a footbag fanatic, are they they the right results (and is the current method of measuring the right one)?
This has been quite a disappointing worlds showing I must say. I love watching Sergey he is awesome to watch, but I felt like that was IT!!! The Sergey show aka Worlds 2008.
I don't think that the top players have caught Vasek, I think Vasek has stopped playing footbag. It looked to me like he is just done. Even his physique looked less than spectacular. This is his show and IMO he disappointed. He really has no other excuse other than he is just not playing any more. I noticed the same thing happened the last Worlds that Peter Irish competed in. You could tell he was just done playing at that level.
I missed Dave and Jordan, and where the f#&k was Penske???
Damian put on a nice shuffle for the crowd, but that was NOT a routine. Sergey put on the BEST routine for the crowd IMO. Vasek's was a bit disjointed and the music was hard to follow with all the 1-5 stuff (sorry guys).
Overall - very disappointing! I enjoyed watching Sergey shred it up in Circle and his routine. Great Job Sergey! He is my '08 Champion!
I actually think Damian's routine was well choreographed. Sure there was a lot of shuffle, but it went well with the music and didn't bore me. Plus doing shuffle for 2 minutes just adds to the difficulty level.
Based on the videos, I think one could make a point about why each of the top 3 players deserved first place. But as others have pointed out, when you're judging, the overall impression of the routine at that time plays a role in the scoring. Since I wasn't there at the time, I don't have any place to comment.
One thing I wish is that they would release the judges scores for each player like they do in the X-Games and the Olympics. This way we can understand where the judges rewarded or penalized. It seems like the judging of footbag events has been this secret thing for a long time and that's definitely not right.
professor wrote:
It seems like the judging of footbag events has been this secret thing for a long time and that's definitely not right.
It was never secret. All the scores are public.
Here's what I took from professor's comment:
In X-Games, scoring happens immediately whereas footbag scoring often happens all at once at the end. The X-Games method is more fan-friendly and feels more transparent, whereas the footbag method (especially when results are controversial... which seems to be every time) can leave spectators wondering.
I think our hearts are in the right place (i.e. judge lots of things very very carefully so we don't mess it up), but other sports do just fine with the "score on the fly" methodology, and I think everyone generally feels pretty good about the results in those other sports.
I don't think Damians routine was as technically hard as people try to make it.
He only hits two stepping tricks (and drops on one) on his flipside.
And the Blurrier is way more "the" than Vasek's Whirr.
Vasek told me and two other persons at different occasions that he thought it was fair (but he said this in a im-being-modest-way) and that he will work hard and come back next year!
Also I have a problem with 2 polish judges in Finals.
I'm not saying that they did anything bad just that it's a bad signal to send.
Damians routine was a bit more than one point harder technically in my book while Vasek's was maybe 3 or 4 points better artisticly than Damians.
Next years worlds is gonna be exciting.
And I agree with circle being way cooler than routines and I hope it someday will be the main event.
Watching Damian's routine again has changed my mind. He flowed really nicely with the style of music he chose and hit some really nice ques. He shuffles when the main theme of the song returns. When the music changes a bit and he starts playing toe to toe. Then theres an interlude and he does some mini toe hopping (technical term?). He climaxes with larger tricks.
Watch it again with these things in mind. I can't believe people are actually discrediting it as a routine. It's great!
Danny Murphy
Working On: Stepping, painless whirls?
i was there and must say that a lot of damians choreography gets lost in this video because of the quality of the audio!
his choreography was ten times better than vaseks, IMO he really won with his AI.
whereas vasek had a VERY EASY song, where he missed many cues (it is very visible that it was a planned routine, he just missed it), damian's routine didn't have many BIG cues, but instead many more little cues and changes of pace and playing styles that vasek didn't have. i'm hoping we'll get video with better audio so at least accurate modified-bitching-aroundness can be done.
edit: thanks for the videos of course! this is just a reaction to some of the posts of course.
Last edited by krawallier on 18 Aug 2008 11:43, edited 1 time in total.
max kerkhoff
fcfootstar
! 30TH ANNUAL IFPA WORLD FOOTBAG CHAMPIONSHIPS 2009 - BERLIN !
Scoring happens as the routine goes on, and then at the end is calculated to see who win. Where the in the world does Bob get his info? Its like the X-Games they score the trick lets say, and then at the end do you find out who wins....
Also if we want wow factor for your wife, then all I would do would be pendulam, rake, handstand, fliers and maybe a duck and dives. Sorry this is a sport judging more than just "overall impression" and that is just beyond vague.
-Yeah there is a better audio its under my thread...... Damien HARDLY even had movement in his routine. The problem is that so many people do not know what a good routine looks like. One thing to play to the music which Damien did not even do, just watch it and its just not as good.
Also I apologize for screaming "Get the fuck out of the way" during Sergey's routine. I've realized I might have ruined it for some people. But really the tournament was so poorly done, and the camera men had messed up two frisbee freestylers already...
acommoncold wrote:The problem is that so many people do not know what a good routine looks like.
aha. says who? you? the allmighty? your mom? steve? and do you consider yourself one of them? while your statement factionally is correct, the notions included are just downright cocky. to how many big competitions have you been that had routines? how many routines have you judged that you are qualified for this statement?
btw - being one of the steadycam camera men (even if only during two of the routines) i asked most players afterwards again if they were bothered by the cameramen, and they said they didn't even notice them/us!
i actually think damians routine was together with serges the best choreographed routine of the tournament.
max kerkhoff
fcfootstar
! 30TH ANNUAL IFPA WORLD FOOTBAG CHAMPIONSHIPS 2009 - BERLIN !
I agree - this goes for you newer "superstars" as well. Watch some older routine videos from guys like Peter Irish, Eric Wulff and Ryan Mulroney to see a mix of difficulty and presentation in a routine.
2 minute shred is NOT a routine. It is 2 minutes of shred. NO ONE got it right this year. I saw no fancy 2 bag juggling, no impressive fliers, and not even impressive shuffle (just some shuffle). I am still disappointed.
Circle comps are looking better and better for the technical side of things, routines are missing the mark.
Scoring happens as the routine goes on, and then at the end is calculated to see who win
So, at worlds, player 1 plays, and instantly score is displayed for all to see? Is that how it went? If yes, I'm mistaken. In the past, all players go, and at the end someone is awarded 1st place etc. It was my understanding this is the way it went again this year. Please let me know. Thank you!
Also if we want wow factor for your wife, then all I would do would be pendulam, rake, handstand, fliers and maybe a duck and dives. Sorry this is a sport judging more than just "overall impression" and that is just beyond vague.
self edit to remove pointless profanity>> Dude.... Read my entire post. I wrote:
I think if the skills used to create the overall impression are roughly in the same league (i.e. not comparing tiltless player to genuine player) the overall impression really is the dominating factor in judging routines.
You're just annoying.
Last edited by Rieferman on 18 Aug 2008 16:23, edited 1 time in total.
acommoncold wrote:...pendulam, rake, handstand, fliers and maybe a duck and dives. Sorry this is a sport judging more than just "overall impression" and that is just beyond vague...
Read between the lines. When you post inflammatory responses to someone who already takes your arguement into consideration it shows not only that you have no respect for them, but that you don't have enough for yourself to make defendable, public actions. First off, all of these would have been a fantastic addition to a final routine. Routines are not shred 30. Variety plays a crucial role.
acommoncold wrote:...Also I apologize for screaming "Get the fuck out of the way" during Sergey's routine. I've realized I might have ruined it for some people. But really the tournament was so poorly done, and the camera men had messed up two frisbee freestylers already...
Not to sound like I'm trying to be an overbearing authority figure, but you don't really sound sorry. It sounds more like you are trying to defend an action that I myself would prefer to forget ever happened. For the future, two wrongs do not make a right.
The top 3 looked very hard to judge but in my opinion it is a routine and a drop in a routine is a failure. Also imo sergey should have won but with it being so close I don't think you could argue anyone got robbed. If you want to go on technical merit alone I suggest a shred 60 or 90. It's a routine everyone should go dropless.
once again imo
1 Sergey not the most difficult but not easy everything was smooth and awsome choreography and no drop.
2 vasek, very dissapointing I don't think his routine went as planned. he probably would have won with a more difficult finish. He just looked off or something.
3 Damian a little sloppy looking but that doesn't matter too much decent choreography and difficulty, the drop killed him.
Just my opinon.
I am sorry for not reading Bob's post fully, and being so "cocky" about what I thought was the routine. I was merely trying to provide details (though it wasn't very in depth) of why I thought Damien wasn't the winner. Enjoy the routines, cheers.
Last edited by Eric Chang on 18 Aug 2008 14:32, edited 2 times in total.
