Changing scoring procedures

sonofgenkai18 · Post by **sonofgenkai18** » 05 Sep 2008 23:40

So, I've been thinking about this for some time now. I've only been playing for a year but I've come to see a lot of the issues that are brought up on this forum hold high merit but I haven't read much about the current scoring and placing procedures however I'm sure someone has brought this one up.

It seems to me that a huge flaw in the scoring standards for the typical footbag competition is that the best player is the one who wins the routines. Naturally the best routine is going to come from an incredible player who deserves recognition, but why is it, that even if they don't compete in the other events, they are still the "champion" of that tournament?

Again I'm sure this has been brought up before but I have not seen any possible solutions, I think i might have a good one.

Before I found footbag I was a Nationally ranked rifle spinner for the ROTC program I was in in high school. I was undefeated for most of my seasons but the way I was ranked was based on a point system. For each competition I took first in, I would have 11 points towards my season total. 2nd place got 9, 3rd place got 7, ect.. After 4 competitions, each competitors points were totaled and the spinner with the most points for the entire season was the champion for that season.

Why not, in a footbag competition, make each event count for just as much as the routines towards a competitors placing for the entire competition?

Lets say, based on the same scale as the rifle spinning scoring I just mentioned, that each event awarded points for the top 6 placers in that event. Sick 1, sick 3, Shred 30, Rippin Run, Routines, and Circle. All scored exactly the same as normal but as a placing is awarded to each competitor so should a specific amount of points based on their placing( 11 for First, 9 for Second, 7 for Third, ect.). At the end of the competition the points for the 6 events are totaled and though players may win Sick 3, or have the best routine, which they deserve recognition for, they are not the Champion of the competition if they didn't compete in or compete well in the other events.

A player that has the discipline and stamina to compete and place well in each event should be recognized just as much, if not more than the obvious best player at the competition only competing in routines.

Ya this is only an opinion, but if you see what I'm getting at let me know what you think...

~Mattimus

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 06 Sep 2008 15:14

Yeah its definately a good idea. I think they do something similar with the juggling equivalent of worlds.

sonofgenkai18 · Post by **sonofgenkai18** » 06 Sep 2008 16:48

interestingly enough...most sports that are catagorized into seperate events operate this way.

Hopefully I can convince some people.

century264 · Post by **century264** » 07 Sep 2008 06:48

Good idea for the system. What I've done, though, is pretty much ignore the scoring of competitions. Someone once said to me "World champion isn't the same as best in the world." That's kind of helped me ignore the idea that the judging of footbag is somewhat flawed.
I just completely justified your point in my mind. It would mean a ton more competition in all the events if everyone who wanted the title had to do all of them. Makes for some awesomer stuff in all events.

sonofgenkai18 · Post by **sonofgenkai18** » 07 Sep 2008 08:27

Thats what I'm saying!

And to follow up on your point of ignoring scores... perhaps if we had a more organized and rigerous scoring procedure like this, it will be easier and more justified to classify the world champion as the actual best in the world. (best who competes anyway)

Max Power · Post by **Max Power** » 08 Sep 2008 16:30

I think that this is a good idea, but i feel like some events should have higher point values than others. I think that routines should stand above all the rest closely followed by shred 30 and circle and then rippin, sick 1 and sick 3 should have the lowest point value. I feel that comps like rippin, sick1 and 3 are more like fun events not real comp, personally i never really feel any pressure in those events (and that goes the same for circle). I just go out there and have fun. People always go soft in rippin, and sick 1 and 3 don't show a large range of ability. Shred 30, and Circle are both better comps imo, although they are complete opposites. One is totally subjective and random and the other is completely objective and usually planned out. Routines defenitly is the show stopper of the competitive side of our sport and i think that it should stay that way and this proposed point system should reflect that.

Asmus · Post by **Asmus** » 08 Sep 2008 21:33

I kinda like the idea. But at a world championship you are also there to see old friends and find new ones and having to compete in 5 different competitions takes alot of time and some people doesn't like some of the formats.

Also I think it's way more important that we come to a conclusion on how we judge routines/sick3/sick1/circle right. Since there is still flaws in the judging of all these competitions.

sonofgenkai18 · Post by **sonofgenkai18** » 09 Sep 2008 05:24

Ya I get that, but I'm the type who thinks greatness takes sacrifice. And it's not like Worlds isn't a freaking week long event.

And I know there are still flaws in all of the base scoring as it is, but perhaps when that gets fixed up we can work on making the standings a bit more fair for those like Justin Dale. Takes very high placing in side events like Sick 1, Sick 3, Rippin', and Circle; but for some reason seems to have trouble with his routines. He placed 7th overall at the US Open, but his "overall" placing was only based on his routine. 0_o

There is a lot of that going on to players around the world and I think this would would encourage harder practice, faster advancement of the sport, and an "overall" placing system that is fair.

Eskimo Joe · Post by **Eskimo Joe** » 09 Sep 2008 10:40

I see a flaw with your proposed system. What is to become of rural people? People like me who live far off on some island in the Arctic who may only get to one or two events a year. Or even people who cannot afford to go (temporally or finacially) who live in and around urban centres.

I sort of like the fact that I can go to worlds and see if I qualify. Otherwise, if this were a points per discipline at events thing, I could just organize a whole load of Nunavut events and kick ass at all of them and become the world point leader, even though I still suck.

sonofgenkai18 · Post by **sonofgenkai18** » 09 Sep 2008 11:47

I don't think you're getting what I mean by this.

It's not going towards your placement on world scale (unless you go to worlds and place) it's only for the final placings for that specific tourniment you're in. You wouldn't accrue points at every tourniment. just for every event.

you see?

Eskimo Joe · Post by **Eskimo Joe** » 09 Sep 2008 12:05

Ahhhh. Now I see. My bad. I do like this idea then.

sonofgenkai18 · Post by **sonofgenkai18** » 09 Sep 2008 14:44

Great! I'm glad you like it. It's nice to get some positive response to this.

Hopefully those who organize events will see the effectiveness and try it out for one or two tournies.

PoisonTaffy · Post by **PoisonTaffy** » 12 Sep 2008 01:28

I like the idea too. At worlds I was a little disappointed that some players who competed in every event were not recognized, as opposed to some players who competed in selected few events and got a good place. Even though everyone can make their own choice, the current system seems biased against those who do make the effort to compete in everything, and that's wrong.
btw I'd differentiate between singles and doubles events, since doubles may create a bias against players who are isolated from footbag communities.

hacksterbator · Post by **hacksterbator** » 12 Sep 2008 07:23

i wrote a long well worded response and lost it, so here's the coles notes version:
-For me winning routines means your the routines world champion, not the overall world champion. Routines are still the most difficult and prestigeous events, but to me you're still just the routines world champion.
-Footbag has 2 disciplines, freestyle and net. LOTS of people competed in both net and freestyle this year at worlds. Oxana won singles net, doubles net, 6th in mixed doubles net, 3rd in women's routines, as well as rocking out in shred 30 and women's circle (in the top 5 in both i believe). Would you include net into your overall footbag world championship points total as well?
-With the exception of artistic gymnastics and decathalon, i can't think of many sports where your placing in multiple events is tallied to give your final score and crown a chamipon.
-if you put a decathlete into the world championships for hurdles, javelin, or any of the other 8 events that make up the decathalon, against people who specialize in that area the decathlete will not be successful.
-When i was fencing you specialized in your weapon. Those who did multiple weapons never succeeded at anything higher than a provincial level. You were never given extra points for competing in multiple weapon groups. There was a foil, sabre, ad epee world champion.
-Should a person who competes in every event, gives a mediocre performance in each but does not win any event be crowned world champion over an individual who wins routines, or shred 30 but competes only in the one event? I say no.
-sounds more to me that you are talking about an overall champion, or an iron man, which i believe is what they called it back in the day (correct me if i'm wrong).
-If it wasn't for people specializing in freestyle, we would never have many the tricks we have to day. Why spread our selves thin when we can specialize in an event and push the technical and artistic boundaries of that event farther than they have been taken before?

my 2 cents

sonofgenkai18 · Post by **sonofgenkai18** » 12 Sep 2008 12:41

well, in my suggestion I states that only the 6 standard events in freestyle footbag would be the ways to accrue these points.

Net is another story and I don't know enough of the game to make any real suggestions to changing it in any way.

As for your inquiry as to whether a person who competes in all events and places mediocre in them winning over a person who only competes in one event and takes first in it...I think that's very fair. I stated that the winners of each event definitely deserve recognition. I know how hard each one can be and to take first in any of them is a huge accomplishment.

What I would like to see is a way to crown a true champion of a tourniment based not only on their placing in routines. And I know that some people see it as ranked first in routines, but many claim they are the top ranked players overall but that claim is based only in one event.

People that compete in and do well in every event, i believe (in a sense), are more talented than those who save all of there stamina and energy for just the one "Show Stopping" event.

sonofgenkai18 · Post by **sonofgenkai18** » 12 Sep 2008 12:44

Just to clarify...

in no way would my idea stretch freestyle thin...in fact it would increase the amount of work one must do to maintain energy and stamina...

this can lead to a longer run average for all players, bigger tricks as a result of bigger muscles, and more competition from those who are obviously not the most talented in a tournament, but work there asses off to compete in each event.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 12 Sep 2008 13:36

I like the idea, however I see circle as the #1 sport, with routines a close second. Personally I think too much emphasis is placed on routines as a discipline. I personally strive for technical ability when I play, not choreographed routines to music.

JMO though.

hacksterbator · Post by **hacksterbator** » 12 Sep 2008 21:27

but isn't the point of a competition to find out who is best, as opposed to finding out who tried really hard but didn't measure up? I want the gold medal. i don't want a gold star because i tried my best in every event.

I have to agree with Flex. Circle is probably the best way to figure out who is the best footbag player, as it comes down to creativity, technical ability, and consistancy. You have 5 shots at the bag, winner takes all. and preplanning your shred wouldn't work out so well, as you need to play off and 1-up the other player in your circle. It's true shred, as i see it.
That being said i prefer shred 30, as it's the only event that is objectivly scored. Routines and circle rankings will depend on the judges to an extent. every one prefers different styles and finds different moves to be difficult.

sonofgenkai18 wrote:in no way would my idea stretch freestyle thin...in fact it would increase the amount of work one must do to maintain energy and stamina...

when you are trying to compete in every thing, you can't bring your A game to every discipline. Your routines aren;t going to be top notch, because you're also training your shred 30, but it won't be scoring as high as you might be able to because you're also busy working on your sick 3's, which are suffering because you also are spending your time working oe your short technical program, which is also lacking because you're trying to lock down your sick one, which isn't as sick a it could be because you're training for every thing else, but hey, it'll have to do.

There's a reason a toe beast was only hit i recent years, and that's because people focused on their toe game instead of spreading them selves thin by working one million concepts. focus on a few events and the boundaries get pushed, if we all start doing every thing, the growth will slow down.

just out of curiosity, how many footbag competitions have you competed in? I'm not trying to belittle your opinion with your answer, but just curious if perhaps experiences with competitions is what gives us these different opinions.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 13 Sep 2008 00:21

Yeah I don't see the need for an "overall freestyle world champion." It's not like there is an overall swimming champion, or an overall cycling champion. You're the champion of the events you win, and that's enough.

Moglum · Post by **Moglum** » 13 Sep 2008 06:39

Jeremy wrote:Yeah I don't see the need for an "overall freestyle world champion." It's not like there is an overall swimming champion, or an overall cycling champion. You're the champion of the events you win, and that's enough.

Exactly.
Plus there is no way to decide which discipline should be more important than others.