The Big Move from Modified to Footbag.org (?)

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 17 Sep 2008 17:48

The only posts that have been moved (we don't usually delete posts, just move them to the mod forum) at footbag.org in the last 2 years are posts from companies trying to sell cheap footbags etc. from Pakistan, and a topic started by Kyle Hewitt which is just quoting a flame war (between Ken S and Paul Munger) from modified. There are also a couple of topics where the OP asked for the topic to be deleted (and there was no significant information in that topic).

I would be happy to post the full text of all the "deleted" posts during the history of footbag.org if you really want to see it (although with posts people asked to be deleted, I would feel compelled to hide their identity). I once deleted a post from Steve G for flaming Brad Kaplan.

During the times when I was a mod/admin at modified (I've always been a mod/admin at .org) the moderating at both sites was almost identical.

I think we should do phase 1 right now. I don't even think there needs to be a vote. We should keep the address http://www.modified.in as well.

So essentially modified would be *exactly the same* as it is now, nobody would notice any difference what so ever, except we wouldn't be costing modevia any money. While their generosity is amazing, and we should find a way of thanking them (I have an idea, but it can wait until after we've made a decision), it's seems to me to be wrong that we're costing a private company money due to their generosity when we have the resources to not be, and it essentially wouldn't cost us any more money than we're currently paying.

I also think this is the least controversial first step. It's hard to see any significant reason for disagreement, given that nobody will notice any changes to the forums what so ever.

Once that step is taken, we can spend as long as we want working out the specifics of the next phases without needlessly costing a company that has helped us out so much any more money.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 17 Sep 2008 18:02

Jeremy 'The Tazmanian Devil' O'Wheel wrote:I would be happy to post the full text of all the "deleted" posts during the history of footbag.org if you really want to see it (although with posts people asked to be deleted, I would feel compelled to hide their identity). I once deleted a post from Steve G for flaming Brad Kaplan.

I want to see that one! No... I DEMAND to see that one reposted immediately!

Do it. Do it now! Don't hold out on me, man...

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 17 Sep 2008 18:10

As tempting as that sounds I've got enough stuff to read as it is thanks! I'm happy with a general assurance.

I agree with doing phase 1 asap and then discussing the rest as necessary. While there is some opposition it seems to me that there is quite wide support for a switch.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 17 Sep 2008 18:11

It just said something like "stop being such a fucking cry baby." I had a quick look but couldn't find it. I did find my topic from when I proposed modified be moved to the .org servers on August 31 2004 (I made the proposal on both forums, but couldn't convince people it was the right idea).

webmaster · Post by **webmaster** » 17 Sep 2008 18:54

dyalander wrote:I was basically wondering exactly what sorts of things would lead to post rejection

Dyalan, you're overthinking this whole thing. The exact same people moderate both forums. Or they will when it's done. It's up to community standards. Whatever you found on footbag.org is left over from the orginal mailing list forums from the early '90s. It's old. Ignore it.

Steve

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 17 Sep 2008 18:54

I'm going to kick a dead horse here, but I have serious issues with the transfer of my data to a third party, in this case Footbag.org.

Footbag.org, and the IFPA, have my real personal information because I believed they needed that information to represent footbag with real numbers. I provided that information so that the growth of the sport could be monitored, and so that bigger sponsors and advertisers could be recruited for events.

Footbag.org, and the IFPA, were not provided with my personal information so that it could be attached to information generated on an independent, unaffiliated website.

I do not consent to the transfer of my data to a third party at this time.

I will continue to withhold my consent until I see a proposal from Steve. I believe he is busy looking at the customizations each site has made to the BBS software, and the database schema of each site, in order to see what is actually possible. I'd like to hear his proposal, and see what the options are available.

webmaster · Post by **webmaster** » 17 Sep 2008 19:09

Cameron, for the third time, you don't "own" your posts on the forum. You don't have a copyright on them, and you don't get to say what happens to them. And nobody's doing anything with your personal information so there's nothing for you to grant or deny. I am not going to address this issue with you again. If you have further concerns, talk to me privately. Stop spamming the forum with fear-mongering nonsense. We're just gathering input right now -- you've more than given your fair share of input. And there are still 5 or 6 different ways we could go about this, including but not limited to one suggestion which is to do nothing. So please, get over yourself. I'm totally happy to delete all your personal data if that's what you want. It would probably be a net positive for this forum as well.

Also, you are just confusing people when you talk about footbag.org and IFPA's purposes. You really just seem to have no idea what you're talking about. Nobody on IFPA that I know of is or has been working on getting sponsors or advertisers based on monitoring of membership counts on IFPA's website. I mean, this is just ridiculous on your part. As I've made excruciatingly clear now several times, the meat of my proposal is about merging accounts to enable single sign-on within our community instead of having multiple accounts and profiles that are different everywhere. It's about evergreen address books for footbag players, so we can find each other. It's not about evil third parties taking our data and making money from them. Sheesh, you really need to get back on your meds.

Steve

Asmus · Post by **Asmus** » 17 Sep 2008 22:35

Voting time?

webmaster · Post by **webmaster** » 17 Sep 2008 22:46

Asmus wrote:Voting time?

There's nothing to vote on. I think this thread can end for now. Will post a new thread when a full proposal is ready for people to weigh in on. Thanks for all the input.

Steve

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 18 Sep 2008 03:49

webmaster wrote:Cameron, for the third time, you don't "own" your posts on the forum. You don't have a copyright on them, and you don't get to say what happens to them. And nobody's doing anything with your personal information so there's nothing for you to grant or deny. I am not going to address this issue with you again. If you have further concerns, talk to me privately. Stop spamming the forum with fear-mongering nonsense. We're just gathering input right now -- you've more than given your fair share of input. And there are still 5 or 6 different ways we could go about this, including but not limited to one suggestion which is to do nothing. So please, get over yourself. I'm totally happy to delete all your personal data if that's what you want. It would probably be a net positive for this forum as well.

Also, you are just confusing people when you talk about footbag.org and IFPA's purposes. You really just seem to have no idea what you're talking about. Nobody on IFPA that I know of is or has been working on getting sponsors or advertisers based on monitoring of membership counts on IFPA's website. I mean, this is just ridiculous on your part. As I've made excruciatingly clear now several times, the meat of my proposal is about merging accounts to enable single sign-on within our community instead of having multiple accounts and profiles that are different everywhere. It's about evergreen address books for footbag players, so we can find each other. It's not about evil third parties taking our data and making money from them. Sheesh, you really need to get back on your meds.

Steve

150 cc's of GG.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 18 Sep 2008 11:01

I agree 100% with Cameron.

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And Cameron owes you nothing. So stop badgering him.

webmaster · Post by **webmaster** » 18 Sep 2008 11:10

Goldberg's Law: all forum posts ultimately lead to Steve-bashing. I'm out of here.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 18 Sep 2008 11:13

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webmaster · Post by **webmaster** » 18 Sep 2008 11:15

What does that have to do with anything, and who are you anyway? Those terms and conditions protect the forum host from any objectionable content you may post, not the other way around. I'm not going to waste another minute on this project. Seriously, this is my last post on this thread. If you want to start another thread once we get to a more formal proposal, feel free. But if this thread keeps turning into more and more of a Steve-bashing personal attack, I'd like to think a moderator would lock it.

Steve

mc · Post by mc » 18 Sep 2008 11:18

Suggesting that Steve should not have absolute power over footbag seems to suggest that he already has a considerable amount of power, and that he's misused it, which has brought about negative repercussions.

Got some examples of his abuse of power?

control of a website is not control over all of footbag. no one controls my feet or what tournaments I go to, especially not a web site or its' admin.

Steve and I have had our differences in the past, but those are extrapolations of interpersonal problems that we've had. they had nothing to do with his competence or choices as a leader and developer of the scene, two things with which he happens to have considerable talents.

All the complaints and opposition I've seen to this so far seem to be either baseless gum-flapping, which I'm responding to now, or the result of not reading the conversation that's gone down in this thread overall.

By the way, to whom are you voicing your opposition? I can't help but note that there is no president or king of modified, and that steve's been given the key to the back door by the only admin, who is considerably disinvolved with the whole project, and footbag in general.

so, basically, what I'm saying is, looks like this is happening, at least to some degree. what are you gonna do about it? what COULD you do about it?

I support players' choices to not want their posts transferred, and if it takes time and effort to make that happen, I'll pledge some hours out of my life to work toward meeting the needs of those who don't want to be involved. I don't see non-participation as a problem, but for those of you who want to keep this from happening at all, just how do you plan on doing that?

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 18 Sep 2008 11:28

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FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 18 Sep 2008 11:33

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Rieferman · Post by **Rieferman** » 18 Sep 2008 12:05

Matt wrot:

so, basically, what I'm saying is, looks like this is happening, at least to some degree. what are you gonna do about it? what COULD you do about it?

Not sure whether I understand or not. Are you saying "We're making some/all of the changes and there's nothing you can do about it"?

atze · Post by **atze** » 18 Sep 2008 12:24

i'm all for the move, have been so form the start. but do have some remarks/questions:

1. once the proposal is phrased will all current modified users be informed?

2. why can't the wish of some people that their posts will be deleted if there is a move to .org (for whichever reason) be respected? or to put it more basic: if i post on any forum on the net can anybody do whatever they want with this content? i really don't know and never thought about this.
if so, couldn't we, as a community, still respect the wish of some people and delete their posts before the move (no idea how much trouble that is...)

3. we must acknowlege/realize that modified is by far the more active forum. it has become the home of the hardcore freestylers. its been built, maintained and sustained by people who made a deliberate choice against the .org forum. there must be/have been a reason (which i personally never understood, but anyway). it's no use moving the content of modified to .org only to realize that most activity ceases and someone opens up a new underground forum.

4. can we keep this discussion steve free? i already see this thread digressing into a steve against whoever thread and that gets us nowhere.
meaning that those having problems with his role in footbag or his person should refrain from personal attacks (or those that could be felt personally) and steve should attempt to close an eye over some of the remarks related to his person. in other words: let's keep this discussion constructive (and critical).

back to you, jim

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 18 Sep 2008 12:27

EDIT: I quoted a post that has since been edited. So no, I'm not making stuff up.

FlexThis wrote:Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.

This is a ridiculous argument. If you don't want to be part of Modified if it's hosted by .org, like Matt, I would also be happy to donate time to make that possible.

Steve isn't trying to take modified.in over. He has made it clear that mods from modified will be mods there. Phase I is just to have modified hosted by .org instead of Movevia, a company who is hosting the site for free, and we're costing them money. It's not right.

Matt Cross wrote:so, basically, what I'm saying is, looks like this is happening, at least to some degree. what are you gonna do about it? what COULD you do about it?

Matt, challenging people and trying to prove that they have no power in this situation isn't going to help anything.

FlexThis wrote:Steve fled like a beat dog just at the mere appearance of me. What does that say about his ability to deal with problematic situations? Turn tail and run. Great way to lead by example

Yep, no personal attacks there.

You're a flamer, you said it yourself. I don't think anyone spending their time, energy and money should stay to be treated that way.

FlexThis wrote:This is a sport, at least I use to think it was. I am not so sure anymore.

Stop being so dramatic, eh?

It takes away from your argument.

This topic should be locked. The point was to feel out the thoughts of a chunk of posters on this forum, and that has been done. Now that Steve's not here, it's going to degrade to simple bickering. The next time something on this topic is going to happen (or not), there will be a new thread anyway.