i would ask the same question. after about 20 people of almost 3000 registered users have voiced their opinion, you are ready to jump into action?Rieferman wrote:Matt wrot:Not sure whether I understand or not. Are you saying "We're making some/all of the changes and there's nothing you can do about it"?so, basically, what I'm saying is, looks like this is happening, at least to some degree. what are you gonna do about it? what COULD you do about it?
The Big Move from Modified to Footbag.org (?)
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Frank_Sinatra
- Avenging Disco Godfather
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Seems like a bunch of stuff has gone down here that's been edited out. A little confusing to jump in at this point...
Steve, I'm sorry to see you bailing on this thread because you've done a great job answering people's questions. I'm glad that someone who we know is an accomplished project manager is involved in this.
Agree with everyone else who said Phase I is a no-brainer.
The terms & conditions do say that certain user information won't be provided to third parties - seems to me that the spirit (if not the letter) of the t&c should allow anyone to 'opt-out' of being moved over, if and when we get to the point of the forums being integrated. That being said I don't see how Phase I amounts to sharing personal info with a third party.
As I just said in a PM about this topic - I think there's a lot of potential for taking all of the energy that is reflected in Modified, and harnessing that output into a more accessible resource.
But what I'm thinking about goes way beyond the scope of this forum hosting/possible integration discussion. What I'm thinking about is really integrating the current functions of footbag.org towards user-generated content - making use of the move-list wiki & integrating it with the trick tips forum and video hosting capabilities. Letting people upload their own videos to the move-list. Integrating the video hosting feature and the video subforum has already been discussed. I think it'd be cool to see the blogs as actual blogs rather than just threads in a forum.
Sorry, guess I'm being "that asshole" in every project design meeting - dreaming up cool stuff but unable to help make it happen.
Back on topic. Making it easier for people to find us has its trade-offs. I hope that before we get to the integration stage, we can have a discussion about different ideas to reduce the likely annoyance factor of the less experienced players that currently make up a significant chunk of the .org users. I'm not begrudging them for being new and having misconceptions. I could list all of the embarrassing misconceptions I stubbornly held on to for anybody interested.
You can probably find plenty of them on your own pretty easily.
What I'm saying is, let's proceed cautiously on forum integration.
EDIT: Just read over the flurry of activity, and really agreed with this comment:
Steve, I'm sorry to see you bailing on this thread because you've done a great job answering people's questions. I'm glad that someone who we know is an accomplished project manager is involved in this.
Agree with everyone else who said Phase I is a no-brainer.
The terms & conditions do say that certain user information won't be provided to third parties - seems to me that the spirit (if not the letter) of the t&c should allow anyone to 'opt-out' of being moved over, if and when we get to the point of the forums being integrated. That being said I don't see how Phase I amounts to sharing personal info with a third party.
As I just said in a PM about this topic - I think there's a lot of potential for taking all of the energy that is reflected in Modified, and harnessing that output into a more accessible resource.
But what I'm thinking about goes way beyond the scope of this forum hosting/possible integration discussion. What I'm thinking about is really integrating the current functions of footbag.org towards user-generated content - making use of the move-list wiki & integrating it with the trick tips forum and video hosting capabilities. Letting people upload their own videos to the move-list. Integrating the video hosting feature and the video subforum has already been discussed. I think it'd be cool to see the blogs as actual blogs rather than just threads in a forum.
Sorry, guess I'm being "that asshole" in every project design meeting - dreaming up cool stuff but unable to help make it happen.
Back on topic. Making it easier for people to find us has its trade-offs. I hope that before we get to the integration stage, we can have a discussion about different ideas to reduce the likely annoyance factor of the less experienced players that currently make up a significant chunk of the .org users. I'm not begrudging them for being new and having misconceptions. I could list all of the embarrassing misconceptions I stubbornly held on to for anybody interested.
You can probably find plenty of them on your own pretty easily. What I'm saying is, let's proceed cautiously on forum integration.
EDIT: Just read over the flurry of activity, and really agreed with this comment:
atze wrote:3. we must acknowlege/realize that modified is by far the more active forum. it has become the home of the hardcore freestylers. its been built, maintained and sustained by people who made a deliberate choice against the .org forum. there must be/have been a reason (which i personally never understood, but anyway). it's no use moving the content of modified to .org only to realize that most activity ceases and someone opens up a new underground forum.
I'm saying that no one owns modified, no one is the head decision maker, no one is going to have the final word about whether this happens or not.atze wrote:i would ask the same question. after about 20 people of almost 3000 registered users have voiced their opinion, you are ready to jump into action?Rieferman wrote:Matt wrot:Not sure whether I understand or not. Are you saying "We're making some/all of the changes and there's nothing you can do about it"?so, basically, what I'm saying is, looks like this is happening, at least to some degree. what are you gonna do about it? what COULD you do about it?
it's like there's a car in the yard, and no one owns it, per se, and we all have ideas about whether we want to move it, or how we're going to use it, but the fact is, someone's got the key to the car (despite the fact that no one owns it) and whatever opinions anyone has about the car are moot unless they're the person holding the key, or they can convince the person with the key to do what they want.
I'm not saying that "I" am part of a "we", and I'm not suggesting that "we" are going to do anything specific. I just see a lot of argument and bad noise being made by people who have absolutely no control or power over what happens now, and I'm just acknowledging that, and I wanted to see how those people would respond to me bringing that up. The only person with real power over where the site goes, where its' hosted, what happens to its' content, etc etc etc, was mike. he is disinvolved with modified, as far as I can tell, and he's given the executive power to steve.
I support footbag.org hosting this web site in some capacity, even if it's just to get the responsibility of hosting off the back of Modevia.com.
BRICK!
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
Emily, I'm not "trying" to prove that people have no power in this situation. I proved it. That's just how it is. There's no power structure in place on modified.
so, who wants to give this one a shot? I wrote the following (but it's been ignored thus far).
so, who wants to give this one a shot? I wrote the following (but it's been ignored thus far).
or how about, any manifestation of that power whatsoever?Suggesting that Steve should not have absolute power over footbag seems to suggest that he already has a considerable amount of power, and that he's misused it, which has brought about negative repercussions.
Got some examples of his abuse of power?
BRICK!
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
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Blue_turnip
- Egyptian Footgod
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Sigh, he was asking whether anyone had examples of Steve abusing his power - because there aren't.FlexThis wrote:I can hardly recognize you way up on that soap box Matt.
No one in this sport deserves POWER. That is ridiculous.
Don't SELL OUT modified.in. That's all I ask.
Regardless, its not a discussion about anyone having power in the sport of footbag. Its just a discussion about moving a bloody forum.
No...just...no.FlexThis wrote: WOW - Guess I have the power. Since no one wants to talk about this ....
Fair enough.
Oliver Adams
Thanks Matt,Matt Cross wrote: I support players' choices to not want their posts transferred, and if it takes time and effort to make that happen, I'll pledge some hours out of my life to work toward meeting the needs of those who don't want to be involved. I don't see non-participation as a problem, but for those of you who want to keep this from happening at all, just how do you plan on doing that?
Obviously it all comes down to the proposal, but I appreciate your willingness to work towards making non-participation an option.
There were similar problems when we moved the ausfootbag forums to footbag.org in that a couple of users had objections. We moved it and haven't had any problems. We lost a user because of it which was a shame, but overall it has been for the best. In that case ausfootbag has a power structure and decision making process in place so it was simply a matter of putting the decision through it. No such structure exists here. The closest thing we have to an authority here is the host and admin. We have been offered a better host and the admin has no problems with switching. I agree with Matt, even if there was a reason for this not to happen, I'm not sure as users we can do anything other than not participate.
I don't see the need to lock this thread *yet* and if people wish to discuss the matter further they are welcome to. Voice your opinion, but there's no need to challenge each other to argue about it.
I don't see the need to lock this thread *yet* and if people wish to discuss the matter further they are welcome to. Voice your opinion, but there's no need to challenge each other to argue about it.
Who wears short shorts?
Dylan Govender.
Dylan Govender.
I'm sorry, it really feels like a lot of people just haven't bothered to read the topic at all, read the title and have voiced their opinions.
The leading proposal that is probably going to be enacted is that we move the server modified.in from the modevia servers to the footbag.org servers.
If this occurred, unless we decided to change URLs, there would be absolutely no difference to the forum. In fact it could be done without telling anybody and nobody would be able to figure it out!. The phase 1 step that has gained the most support is purely administrative. It does not relate to any changes to options on what you can and cannot do on the forum.
All that would change is that instead of a private company generously donating the bandwidth to host this forum, we'd be utilising resources we (the footbag community) are already paying for through our memberships and donations to the IFPA.
I still don't think people are clear on the argument. Regardless of if we go any further than that step, lets take that step before getting involved in the far more complicated discussion of the specifics of further integration.
It seems completely irrational to me, that people would be happy having their "personal details" stored by a private corporate entity that has almost no connection to footbag and has made no promises or statements about what it may or may not use for that data, rather than having the exact same details stored by an association representing, supported and run by people in the footbag community. I can't say that's a position I can understand at all. Not that I don't trust modevia, or think there is any "personal" information I have stored on this forum that I'm concerned about sharing (beyond, perhaps what I've put in the public domain through my own short-sightedness), but in general I think you'd have a question the motives of a corporate businesses motives for generosity more than the motives of a community based association that is made up of the people whose information is being stored.
The leading proposal that is probably going to be enacted is that we move the server modified.in from the modevia servers to the footbag.org servers.
If this occurred, unless we decided to change URLs, there would be absolutely no difference to the forum. In fact it could be done without telling anybody and nobody would be able to figure it out!. The phase 1 step that has gained the most support is purely administrative. It does not relate to any changes to options on what you can and cannot do on the forum.
All that would change is that instead of a private company generously donating the bandwidth to host this forum, we'd be utilising resources we (the footbag community) are already paying for through our memberships and donations to the IFPA.
I still don't think people are clear on the argument. Regardless of if we go any further than that step, lets take that step before getting involved in the far more complicated discussion of the specifics of further integration.
It seems completely irrational to me, that people would be happy having their "personal details" stored by a private corporate entity that has almost no connection to footbag and has made no promises or statements about what it may or may not use for that data, rather than having the exact same details stored by an association representing, supported and run by people in the footbag community. I can't say that's a position I can understand at all. Not that I don't trust modevia, or think there is any "personal" information I have stored on this forum that I'm concerned about sharing (beyond, perhaps what I've put in the public domain through my own short-sightedness), but in general I think you'd have a question the motives of a corporate businesses motives for generosity more than the motives of a community based association that is made up of the people whose information is being stored.
Jeremy wrote:
dyalander wrote:
This is a classic philosophical question. Good of the many vs. good of the few. In this case, since I personally feel that modified and footbag.org forums both have a purpose, and are both doing good for the sport in their different ways, the many is already served. So why risk sacrificing the few? If even a few key (or for that matter, not-key) contributors bail as a result of future steps, regardless of their reasons for bailing, I would consider further steps a failure - and a needless failure.
Matt wrote:
Right, that's what I'd be wary of.
Clearly stated, well stated. I don't see any real opposition to this point personally. I think if Phase 1 were put to a vote to everyone with the explanation above, it would receive close-to-100% approval. So let's concede that part for now.The leading proposal that is probably going to be enacted is that we move the server modified.in from the modevia servers to the footbag.org servers.
If this occurred, unless we decided to change URLs, there would be absolutely no difference to the forum. In fact it could be done without telling anybody and nobody would be able to figure it out!. The phase 1 step that has gained the most support is purely administrative. It does not relate to any changes to options on what you can and cannot do on the forum.
All that would change is that instead of a private company generously donating the bandwidth to host this forum, we'd be utilising resources we (the footbag community) are already paying for through our memberships and donations to the IFPA.
I still don't think people are clear on the argument. Regardless of if we go any further than that step, lets take that step before getting involved in the far more complicated discussion of the specifics of further integration.
dyalander wrote:
This pertains to phases after the conceded phase 1 (see above).We moved it and haven't had any problems. We lost a user because of it which was a shame, but overall it has been for the best.
This is a classic philosophical question. Good of the many vs. good of the few. In this case, since I personally feel that modified and footbag.org forums both have a purpose, and are both doing good for the sport in their different ways, the many is already served. So why risk sacrificing the few? If even a few key (or for that matter, not-key) contributors bail as a result of future steps, regardless of their reasons for bailing, I would consider further steps a failure - and a needless failure.
Matt wrote:
dyalander wrote:so, basically, what I'm saying is, looks like this is happening, at least to some degree. what are you gonna do about it? what COULD you do about it?
I'm not sure as users we can do anything other than not participate.
Right, that's what I'd be wary of.
Bob R.
http://www.modevia.com/company/privacy.phpJeremy wrote: It seems completely irrational to me, that people would be happy having their "personal details" stored by a private corporate entity that has almost no connection to footbag and has made no promises or statements about what it may or may not use for that data
That's a policy for visitors of their website (http://www.modevia.com), not for small online communities using their servers.
In any event, it's irrelevant to the argument. Are you saying that if footbag.org put up a privacy policy like that (if it doesn't already have one), you would then have no objections?
In any event, it's irrelevant to the argument. Are you saying that if footbag.org put up a privacy policy like that (if it doesn't already have one), you would then have no objections?
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Senor Grommet
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Before this thread does get locked, I'd thought I'd chime in and say
Suck it bitches!
Modified is .org's bitch! In fact, what did Steve Goldberg's fingers say to Modified's face? SLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!
In all seriousness, I support the move. The community will stay the same, possibly increase in numbers, which can't be a bad thing. If we lose a few members, I don't feel that the community will be missing out too much.
Steve Goldberg is good for footbag. Steve bashers are bad for footbag. Steve bashers, what have you done for footbag? Oh, yeah, right . . . not too much lately.
BTW, the net section at .org already has a fairly active community. To my knowledge, there has NEVER been over-moderation, and in fact, I can only remember one instance when a post was removed. It was a drunken vulgar rant in the style of a pro-athlete's media tirade, and it was half-serious.
Suck it bitches!
Modified is .org's bitch! In fact, what did Steve Goldberg's fingers say to Modified's face? SLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!
In all seriousness, I support the move. The community will stay the same, possibly increase in numbers, which can't be a bad thing. If we lose a few members, I don't feel that the community will be missing out too much.
Steve Goldberg is good for footbag. Steve bashers are bad for footbag. Steve bashers, what have you done for footbag? Oh, yeah, right . . . not too much lately.
BTW, the net section at .org already has a fairly active community. To my knowledge, there has NEVER been over-moderation, and in fact, I can only remember one instance when a post was removed. It was a drunken vulgar rant in the style of a pro-athlete's media tirade, and it was half-serious.
My name: Jeremy Mirken, AKA Chocolatey Shatner, AKA jerk enemy rim.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.