Heyo. I had a thought that I figured was worth tossing out to the community:
What if, when a new user joins, there is a period of time (one month maybe) where they can write PMs, but can't create any other topics? And if they have a question, they can PM it to a mod, and the mod can post the topic on their behalf if it isn't something that's being covered in another thread?
Suggestion for managing forums - new members
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Frank_Sinatra
- Avenging Disco Godfather
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Frank_Sinatra
- Avenging Disco Godfather
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Thanks, Erik. I hadn't thought of the point you bring up. Somebody could definitely join, kinda forget about it for a while, come back to the forum three months later and still post a dozen of the usual repeat questions.
It would be interesting to pull some data by user comparing when the account was created to when topics are created.
Another possibility, if something like this could be implemented, would be to tweak it as we go. Maybe start out with something minimally disruptive but still plausibly useful, like say one week, and see what happens.
It would be interesting to pull some data by user comparing when the account was created to when topics are created.
Another possibility, if something like this could be implemented, would be to tweak it as we go. Maybe start out with something minimally disruptive but still plausibly useful, like say one week, and see what happens.
Or if it could be based on total length of visit. I was going to say total number of visits, but if someone knew that was the rule, they could just open and close a bunch of times.
So, if possible, the total amount of time... actively viewing forums? I wonder if it's possible to control that sort of statistics... (does the PHP, or whatever know when a user is "idle"? -- logged in, but not changing pages and scrolling pages for more than... 5 minutes or so?) Like what would be a reasonable amount of time to read-up? A certain number of hours? And maybe a different amount of hours per forum...so obviously more hours reading time required for Equipment section and Trick Tips forum (maybe also Getting Started and Advanced)...
Something admin could look into if there was enough interest with the other mods/users.
So, if possible, the total amount of time... actively viewing forums? I wonder if it's possible to control that sort of statistics... (does the PHP, or whatever know when a user is "idle"? -- logged in, but not changing pages and scrolling pages for more than... 5 minutes or so?) Like what would be a reasonable amount of time to read-up? A certain number of hours? And maybe a different amount of hours per forum...so obviously more hours reading time required for Equipment section and Trick Tips forum (maybe also Getting Started and Advanced)...
Something admin could look into if there was enough interest with the other mods/users.
I think it sends entirely the wrong message. People who are new at things should be asking as many questions as they can, and you guys might find them annoying, but I think it's much more helpful to respond to those questions than almost any other topic on modified. Sure whatever they're asking might have been discussed before, but who honestly uses the search function? I only use it if I'm looking for something I already know exists.
The benefit from such a policy seems exceptionally marginal. Old members don't have to look at topics from n00bs, while the negativet - preventing new people an easy opportunity to ask questions - seems far greater.
Forums are evolving conversations, not resources. There are plenty of places for creating footbag information resources instead, if that's what you want to do.
The benefit from such a policy seems exceptionally marginal. Old members don't have to look at topics from n00bs, while the negativet - preventing new people an easy opportunity to ask questions - seems far greater.
Forums are evolving conversations, not resources. There are plenty of places for creating footbag information resources instead, if that's what you want to do.
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Frank_Sinatra
- Avenging Disco Godfather
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Thanks for your opinion, Jeremy. I appreciate your point that a forum is not an ideal medium to host resources. Despite that, it is what Modified is used for: the Trick Tips subforum obviously, but also the tutorials in Bags & Equipment and the Video sections, and everything from Jorden's 21 Tips to Bob Riefer's Event Organizing guide, to advice for rolled ankles in Health & Injuries.
People know Modified, they come to Modified, and there is a lot of good stuff contained in these pages, let's try to make the best of what we've got.
Sometimes questions that have been covered dozens of times just don't get answered, which doesn't send a very good message either. Sometimes they get answered with hostility, which sends an even worse message. Sometimes the answer just isn't very good, and there's a better answer available by reading a previous thread. The flip side of that is sometimes a really good answer is provided in the new thread, but now we've got multiple threads with multiple different, sometimes contradictory or incomplete, answers.
It is incredibly frustrating to new players to get one answer, follow it, and then find out some time later that there's a completely opposing answer. Or that there is additional information that they were never aware of. If all the relevant answers are contained in a single thread, at least the new player can see that there are different opinions, and the different opinions can be compared to one another, and more experienced players can weigh in and maybe move towards consensus or at least reasoned explanations for why one answer might be more suitable than another.
For example, what if every person planning to attend an event posted their questions in a new topic. Not only would the organizers have to try to catch every new topic, they'd have to write the same thing over and over again, and the attendees would probably not always get good information, they'd get rumors or assumptions. This is a pretty good analogy for what happens right now with questions like "can I play in skate shoes?" or "what is the secret to clipper?" or "what does paradox mean?"
This isn't an attack on new players at all. If anything, I think it would create a more positive environment for everyone. The mods could politely steer them towards the right thread, and nobody would jump down their throat for posting something that's already been covered.
I don't want this to become a typical contentious modified thread. I'd really like to hear other people's opinions on this idea, though.
People know Modified, they come to Modified, and there is a lot of good stuff contained in these pages, let's try to make the best of what we've got.
Sometimes questions that have been covered dozens of times just don't get answered, which doesn't send a very good message either. Sometimes they get answered with hostility, which sends an even worse message. Sometimes the answer just isn't very good, and there's a better answer available by reading a previous thread. The flip side of that is sometimes a really good answer is provided in the new thread, but now we've got multiple threads with multiple different, sometimes contradictory or incomplete, answers.
It is incredibly frustrating to new players to get one answer, follow it, and then find out some time later that there's a completely opposing answer. Or that there is additional information that they were never aware of. If all the relevant answers are contained in a single thread, at least the new player can see that there are different opinions, and the different opinions can be compared to one another, and more experienced players can weigh in and maybe move towards consensus or at least reasoned explanations for why one answer might be more suitable than another.
For example, what if every person planning to attend an event posted their questions in a new topic. Not only would the organizers have to try to catch every new topic, they'd have to write the same thing over and over again, and the attendees would probably not always get good information, they'd get rumors or assumptions. This is a pretty good analogy for what happens right now with questions like "can I play in skate shoes?" or "what is the secret to clipper?" or "what does paradox mean?"
This isn't an attack on new players at all. If anything, I think it would create a more positive environment for everyone. The mods could politely steer them towards the right thread, and nobody would jump down their throat for posting something that's already been covered.
I don't want this to become a typical contentious modified thread. I'd really like to hear other people's opinions on this idea, though.
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PoisonTaffy
- Egyptian Footgod
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Maybe it could be gradual with short intervals, based on visits rather than time.
A scenario I could imagine would be- that the first time a registered user visits, she can only access a certain forum, and can only see sticky posts, and she cannot CREATE new topics, only reply to existing ones. Two or three visits later, she can view all the posts within the forum, but still cannot create her own. 20 unique post viewing later - the rest of the forums open up and creating new topics is available.
That would also entail making most forums invisible to unregistered visitors, which is a huge hole in my idea.
Of course any solution should be made entirely clear somewhere to the user, otherwise it'll be totally useless and only contribute to the eventual death of the forum.
A scenario I could imagine would be- that the first time a registered user visits, she can only access a certain forum, and can only see sticky posts, and she cannot CREATE new topics, only reply to existing ones. Two or three visits later, she can view all the posts within the forum, but still cannot create her own. 20 unique post viewing later - the rest of the forums open up and creating new topics is available.
That would also entail making most forums invisible to unregistered visitors, which is a huge hole in my idea.
Of course any solution should be made entirely clear somewhere to the user, otherwise it'll be totally useless and only contribute to the eventual death of the forum.
"Childhood is short, immaturity is forever"
Roy Klein
Roy Klein
1. The trick tip topics where all the posts about that trick have been collated into one long list are exceedingly difficult to read, and many people who ask for trick tips ignore them because of this. It may have been a good idea, but in practice it has clearly failed. This is therefore not a good example of a resource.
2. The health and injuries topic, the bags and equipment and the videos sections are almost entirely "conversations" rather than resources. There is a very small percentage of topics stickied - some of which are now redundant. The overall percentage of topics on modified compared with sticky topics shows that the sticky topics are largely insignificant and treating forum policy as if those are the most important is nonsensical.
3. In no way does this policy address the issue that "sometimes questions that have been covered a dozen times don't get answered." If people are unable to post that doesn't mean they're more likely to use the search function or to look at topics past the first page.
4. The issue of the quality of answers to questions is a serious one, but again preventing new players from posting does not address this problem at all. This problem can only be addressed by experienced players who know what they're talking about ensuring that they comment when they see advice they don't agree with and offer their own advice to any question that has not been adequately answered.
5. Your example about every player attending an event starting their own topic would be a good point if it reflected reality in any way. It does not. It would suck if people did that and hopefully mods would merge those topics together, but it doesn't happen so lets not remove people's posting rights based on hypothetical events that haven't happened and that we can see no reason to ever happen in the future.
6. People who don't like reading the same questions over and over and are not prepared to be helpful to new players should just avoid those topics. That's a much more useful approach than removing the posting rights of new players. It almost no effort to answer these questions in a direct manner without making any kind of personal remarks or getting annoyed. I find it amazing that people can have the patience to get good at footbag, but not have the patience to spend 20 seconds answering questions that they probably asked themselves when they were starting.
7. It seems entirely plausible that people who join a forum and find that they are unable to post will simply stop visiting the forum. Of course I have no evidence to support this, but likewise there is no evidence that this policy would have any positive effect on new players at all, and thus making a policy with such significant unknowns and potential risks appears very foolish.
2. The health and injuries topic, the bags and equipment and the videos sections are almost entirely "conversations" rather than resources. There is a very small percentage of topics stickied - some of which are now redundant. The overall percentage of topics on modified compared with sticky topics shows that the sticky topics are largely insignificant and treating forum policy as if those are the most important is nonsensical.
3. In no way does this policy address the issue that "sometimes questions that have been covered a dozen times don't get answered." If people are unable to post that doesn't mean they're more likely to use the search function or to look at topics past the first page.
4. The issue of the quality of answers to questions is a serious one, but again preventing new players from posting does not address this problem at all. This problem can only be addressed by experienced players who know what they're talking about ensuring that they comment when they see advice they don't agree with and offer their own advice to any question that has not been adequately answered.
5. Your example about every player attending an event starting their own topic would be a good point if it reflected reality in any way. It does not. It would suck if people did that and hopefully mods would merge those topics together, but it doesn't happen so lets not remove people's posting rights based on hypothetical events that haven't happened and that we can see no reason to ever happen in the future.
6. People who don't like reading the same questions over and over and are not prepared to be helpful to new players should just avoid those topics. That's a much more useful approach than removing the posting rights of new players. It almost no effort to answer these questions in a direct manner without making any kind of personal remarks or getting annoyed. I find it amazing that people can have the patience to get good at footbag, but not have the patience to spend 20 seconds answering questions that they probably asked themselves when they were starting.
7. It seems entirely plausible that people who join a forum and find that they are unable to post will simply stop visiting the forum. Of course I have no evidence to support this, but likewise there is no evidence that this policy would have any positive effect on new players at all, and thus making a policy with such significant unknowns and potential risks appears very foolish.
I'd have to agree with Jeremy on this one, plus add the opinion of someone who is pretty new to this forum (only been active on here for about a month and a half)
I myself had a lot of questions and did my due diligence searching the forums for answers, but couldn't find answers for several, and didn't find answers I liked for others.
I might have been annoying creating the few threads I did asking questions, but it was personally very helpful getting those answers.
I now see other new members asking ridiculous questions, and it doesn't harm me. I see a new post, waste all of 10 seconds shimming it, and then can ignore or post at my leisure.
Restricting the posting right of new members can ruin their forum experience, while even a few stupid posts a week barely has any negative effect
I myself had a lot of questions and did my due diligence searching the forums for answers, but couldn't find answers for several, and didn't find answers I liked for others.
I might have been annoying creating the few threads I did asking questions, but it was personally very helpful getting those answers.
I now see other new members asking ridiculous questions, and it doesn't harm me. I see a new post, waste all of 10 seconds shimming it, and then can ignore or post at my leisure.
Restricting the posting right of new members can ruin their forum experience, while even a few stupid posts a week barely has any negative effect
I didn't read the stuff after Jeremy's first post. Except Matt's quote, which I also considered.
I have another idea, though.
We could have open membership like there is now, but ALSO have a list of reliable, experienced users who are willing to help new users/players with any questions via PM, which would be recommended (not required). Or maybe these select advice-givers would be listed in the Getting Started section somewhere and then the new users would know whose opinion could be trusted or entertained when their questions are "answered".
Personally I love when new players PM me and I love to give as much info as I can and urge them to continue to contact me with any questions whatsoever they may have. On the flip, I never check the Getting Started forum, so I guess that's why Nathan's suggestion jumped out at me initially.
I guess the new players/users will often PM mods with questions, but not all mods are necessarily experienced players.
I have another idea, though.
We could have open membership like there is now, but ALSO have a list of reliable, experienced users who are willing to help new users/players with any questions via PM, which would be recommended (not required). Or maybe these select advice-givers would be listed in the Getting Started section somewhere and then the new users would know whose opinion could be trusted or entertained when their questions are "answered".
Personally I love when new players PM me and I love to give as much info as I can and urge them to continue to contact me with any questions whatsoever they may have. On the flip, I never check the Getting Started forum, so I guess that's why Nathan's suggestion jumped out at me initially.
I guess the new players/users will often PM mods with questions, but not all mods are necessarily experienced players.
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Frank_Sinatra
- Avenging Disco Godfather
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Just a point of clarification, I am suggesting limiting the ability to post new topics, for a limited period of time, except where a mod determines that it hasn't already been covered. I am not talking about preventing them from asking questions in existing topics or submitting the question to a mod.
After submiting the question, the mod would either post it, or direct the user to the topic where it has already been asked.
The only point that Jeremy raised which I agree with is #3. I may respond in more detail when I have more time, but I think it's perfectly clear what my opinion is (and what Jeremy's opinion is for that matter) so I'll leave some oxygen for anyone else who wants to chime in.
After submiting the question, the mod would either post it, or direct the user to the topic where it has already been asked.
The only point that Jeremy raised which I agree with is #3. I may respond in more detail when I have more time, but I think it's perfectly clear what my opinion is (and what Jeremy's opinion is for that matter) so I'll leave some oxygen for anyone else who wants to chime in.
Shouldn't this "group" just be the experienced people who check the "Getting Started" subforum? I don't think a list or a special rank should be needed.Erik Chan wrote:I have another idea, though.
We could have open membership like there is now, but ALSO have a list of reliable, experienced users who are willing to help new users/players with any questions via PM, which would be recommended (not required). Or maybe these select advice-givers would be listed in the Getting Started section somewhere and then the new users would know whose opinion could be trusted or entertained when their questions are "answered".
I have in the past when I thought somebody made to many topics and might accidently step on somebodies toe, pm'ed the person and said that they could just ask me any question if they where scared to look dumb. This has worked quite well in the past.
Most people on this forum could answer like 90% of the questions and when I haven't been able to answer I just told them somebody else to PM that I thought would know the answer. If a big group of people checked the "Getting Started" subforum this wouldn't even be necessary.
I also think I would feel more appreciated and welcomed on a forum if 3 or 4 people answered my stupid question than if one person did.
Well that's one of the problems that needs to be worked on. 
It sounds like Asmus is suggesting that people who are knowledgeable and experienced posters could donate a little bit of time to answering questions in the Getting Started forum. True, that's not the majority of the forum users, but there are a heck of a lot of people who know a lot on here. Yes, a lot of new people try to help and give "wrong" or bad advice, but if someone who has been playing for years (and knows what s/he's talking about) steps in and corrects them both, both the brand new person and the misinformed new-ish player will both learn something.
I agree that there doesn't need to be a new group of people assigned to the task, but if anyone wants to commit to responding to a few more posts made by new players, all the better for the forum.
It sounds like Asmus is suggesting that people who are knowledgeable and experienced posters could donate a little bit of time to answering questions in the Getting Started forum. True, that's not the majority of the forum users, but there are a heck of a lot of people who know a lot on here. Yes, a lot of new people try to help and give "wrong" or bad advice, but if someone who has been playing for years (and knows what s/he's talking about) steps in and corrects them both, both the brand new person and the misinformed new-ish player will both learn something.
I agree that there doesn't need to be a new group of people assigned to the task, but if anyone wants to commit to responding to a few more posts made by new players, all the better for the forum.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Emily Kulczyk
Emily Kulczyk
Moxie brings up a good point, and I just wanted to point out that as a new member I have seen advice that I thought was fact and followed it, only to find out from more experienced players later that it was wrong. New members posting questions, after they've searched for their answer here, can only be a win for all...if just a few experienced members would take the 5 minutes to answer new player's questions.
The new member feels welcomed to the site and gets helpful information
Other members who think they know what is what can be corrected if they're wrong, and can improve
The new member feels welcomed to the site and gets helpful information
Other members who think they know what is what can be corrected if they're wrong, and can improve
When I look through the getting started forum I don't see many topics that haven't been answered adequately. Of course that's not to say that every topic has been answered correctly, so you probably don't need to bother posting the exceptions (unless it really means a lot to you), but I don't see any major problem with new people's topics being responded to.
Something I'm concerned with is how do the new players know to distinguish between other new players' advice and experienced players' advice? If a new player were to come in and "correct" an experienced player, what then? How does Nitrox tell the difference between "Executioner" and "gadgetboy"?Moxie wrote:Yes, a lot of new people try to help and give "wrong" or bad advice, but if someone who has been playing for years (and knows what s/he's talking about) steps in and corrects them both, both the brand new person and the misinformed new-ish player will both learn something.
Hopefully experienced players have the communication skills to explain their points in detail and the new player should find the better advice more convincing or at the very least will try both sides of conflicting advice and make up their own mind - which again should be to follow the better advice.