Hey Modified.
As I was showering from the day's shred, I got to thinking about how we judge things in footbag. For example, the first thing that came to mind was Double Legover, if you turn too much, it is considered not properly executed, even though on something like, far rake, if you turned 90 degrees on way or another no one would call you out on anything.
This thought process then folded itself over to shoes, and then I thought to myself "Yeah, I really should stick to Quantums so that I'm not cheating with the Gunits, which have a big bucket of an instep"..
Then it hit me...
We LITERALLY encourage players to have a 2x2+ inch toe surface bucket, that could easily have an apple nestle into it's fine interior dropped from a height of 2.5 feet. If I meet a new player, the routine is "Ok, get lavers, get a sandbag, go practice and be both sided, and wait, mod your shoes so that you can just hold your toe out and catch the bag, even if 1/3 of the bag was on the outside side of the wall, and then it dropped into the bucket and hit the other wall to finally stop flopping all around. That is great!"
But, because of the ideas put on this forum, if I meet the new player who asks me about Gunits, I immediately say "Don't wear them until you've got your basics, that bucket on your clipper is bad form, and you should wear slippery, and graciously curved insteps on the laver so every stall is perfect".
So, for the users on the forum who have been around for a while, I am curious as to why this mentality developed. How come it became acceptable to have toe walls? I imagine at the time, pixie sets weren't even a true reality as they are today, so I figure it would have encouraged similar bad form on the toe surface as do Gunits with a clipper surface. I do admit that styles can become much uglier in gunits (myself as a prime example). My idea for the outcome of this topic isn't to justify cheating with Gunits to hit big tricks.
Standards of shoe modification.
Standards of shoe modification.
Jay Boychuk
Though I have not been around long enough to remember a toe-wall debate or issue (mine are cut off anyway 
), I do have one comment on your post, which is related to the issue in general.
So really IMO, we should encourage players to start on un-modded shoes and slowly mod them more and more as they become competent in their stall, so they never learn to abuse the amazing surfaces of the shoes we use, and in turn, end up with crisper delays and better style.
), I do have one comment on your post, which is related to the issue in general.This sentence confuses me. As someone who has ONLY ever used lavers, I have never found that the catch is what causes me to drop. I have become so attuned to the surfaces of my shoes, it is only a poor dex or poor timing which causes me to drop, never the surface of the shoe. I think this is directly relatede to the subject, in the fact that G-Unit's CAN make your style ugly, if you use them to help you learn the catches on some of the more basic tricks (osis, butter, whirl, drifter), but if you do it like Jorden or a few other players did (get amazing, then swicthed to G's) they will only help in the way that they might give you a little extra stick on your Osii that you didn't have before, and the better grip and support they offer.Jay wrote:My idea for the outcome of this topic isn't to justify cheating with Gunits to hit big tricks.
So really IMO, we should encourage players to start on un-modded shoes and slowly mod them more and more as they become competent in their stall, so they never learn to abuse the amazing surfaces of the shoes we use, and in turn, end up with crisper delays and better style.
Style is completely subjective. That said, it is my opinion that whatever you need to get to the game you want is OK when learning freestyle.
Not every players is or will be World Class. Nor should EVERYONE strive for that level of play. It is ok to have an inner voice pushing you to your limits, but don't let history, tradition, or even pop culture dictate how you play, unless that is what you are about.
I have been playing for roughly 12 years, 7 of which were on a Pro/Open level. The other 5 have been just for fun. When I played competitively we modded our shoes to help improve the level of play we pushed to achieve. We had NO OFFICIAL SHOE, and mods were seen as a way to supplement that lack of a shoe. Cut off walls were used to enhance the pixie/fairy set. Some players modded the toe box with nothing more than a sheet of fabric instead of the standard mesh tongue. Some kicked in Tevas. Form was just as subjective then, and I think a lot of people will agree that style got accelerated once Europe took control of BAP. What I mean by that is that when Vasek, Honza, and Ales stepped on the scene, footbag suddenly became easier to learn. Why? Because these guys had put in the work and re-paved the way to learning freestyle. This had nothing to do with shoe mods, but rather with simple practice, practice, practice. A few more mods were then added like the ankle bone mod and clipper rails.
Today I play completely for fun, but when I get with Richie Abshire and Brad, we tend to push as if we were still playing at a BAP level. I personally have tons of mods that would promote "Bad Form" to the eyes of many competitive players today. For instance I have a clipper rail that runs from the heal all the way to the toe box. It is deep and curved. I can hold my foot at a ridiculous angle and still hold the bag on my foot. This has been both a blessing and a pain to work with. My osis sticks from time to time but my string length is also wayyyyy longer than without the mod. I also have a re-built toe box and tongue. My toe stall spot is deep which requires a higher lacing. Even with the first 2 eyelets cut off, I still have toe walls. I also added a stiff piece of canvas around the cut off eyelets and glued them into a curved shape. They look like they came this way.
Overall, I have to say that the mods you do are for you. For your game and no ones elses. Until we have an official shoe that is the only shoe allowed in competition, then I say mod away. This is a foot sport, and in my 12 years of play I have never considered a mod cheating. If anything I have adapted the ones I felt would help improve my game.
Not every players is or will be World Class. Nor should EVERYONE strive for that level of play. It is ok to have an inner voice pushing you to your limits, but don't let history, tradition, or even pop culture dictate how you play, unless that is what you are about.
I have been playing for roughly 12 years, 7 of which were on a Pro/Open level. The other 5 have been just for fun. When I played competitively we modded our shoes to help improve the level of play we pushed to achieve. We had NO OFFICIAL SHOE, and mods were seen as a way to supplement that lack of a shoe. Cut off walls were used to enhance the pixie/fairy set. Some players modded the toe box with nothing more than a sheet of fabric instead of the standard mesh tongue. Some kicked in Tevas. Form was just as subjective then, and I think a lot of people will agree that style got accelerated once Europe took control of BAP. What I mean by that is that when Vasek, Honza, and Ales stepped on the scene, footbag suddenly became easier to learn. Why? Because these guys had put in the work and re-paved the way to learning freestyle. This had nothing to do with shoe mods, but rather with simple practice, practice, practice. A few more mods were then added like the ankle bone mod and clipper rails.
Today I play completely for fun, but when I get with Richie Abshire and Brad, we tend to push as if we were still playing at a BAP level. I personally have tons of mods that would promote "Bad Form" to the eyes of many competitive players today. For instance I have a clipper rail that runs from the heal all the way to the toe box. It is deep and curved. I can hold my foot at a ridiculous angle and still hold the bag on my foot. This has been both a blessing and a pain to work with. My osis sticks from time to time but my string length is also wayyyyy longer than without the mod. I also have a re-built toe box and tongue. My toe stall spot is deep which requires a higher lacing. Even with the first 2 eyelets cut off, I still have toe walls. I also added a stiff piece of canvas around the cut off eyelets and glued them into a curved shape. They look like they came this way.
Overall, I have to say that the mods you do are for you. For your game and no ones elses. Until we have an official shoe that is the only shoe allowed in competition, then I say mod away. This is a foot sport, and in my 12 years of play I have never considered a mod cheating. If anything I have adapted the ones I felt would help improve my game.
Go out and shred already.
~Damon Mathews
~Damon Mathews
Post or create a vid demonstrating ugly gunit style. I'm not convinced it exists other than as some sort of guilt trip. Besides, the whole subjectivity thing. I'm pretty sure I'll like the 'sloppy' style better if the strings average to be 5% longer.
I've never supported the 'Lavers before Gunits' mentality either - not that this has even come up, I don't recall the last time I directly advised a newbie on buying footwear. If we should be learning clippers on Lavers before we learn them on Gunits, should we also learn them barefoot before we learn them in Lavers?
I think I'm pretty comfortable with 'anything goes' in the footwear department. Nothing we do with our shoes is going to help your legs do a tatw or a double down. Well, unless we strap large networks of nano-scale rockets to them, programmed to ... nah, forget it.
I've never supported the 'Lavers before Gunits' mentality either - not that this has even come up, I don't recall the last time I directly advised a newbie on buying footwear. If we should be learning clippers on Lavers before we learn them on Gunits, should we also learn them barefoot before we learn them in Lavers?
I think I'm pretty comfortable with 'anything goes' in the footwear department. Nothing we do with our shoes is going to help your legs do a tatw or a double down. Well, unless we strap large networks of nano-scale rockets to them, programmed to ... nah, forget it.
Colin Kennedy
[email protected]
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james_dean
- space cowboy
- Posts: 2268
- Joined: 26 Oct 2004 23:11
- Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia
Personally I would much prefer to have great style and form and have strings 5% shorter. But I guess that's the subjectivity again. Also that's a general comment, not related to gunits... unaware of their supposed effects on style.Colin wrote:Post or create a vid demonstrating ugly gunit style. I'm not convinced it exists other than as some sort of guilt trip. Besides, the whole subjectivity thing. I'm pretty sure I'll like the 'sloppy' style better if the strings average to be 5% longer.
I think g-units make styles worse, pretty much all the time. It is undeniable that Penske, Jorden, Dave, Dylan Fry, and other players have good styles in g-units. However, I almost always preffer the footage I see of these guys when they play in anything but G-units. I realize that this is totaly subjective, but oppinions can be like that... I find that there's something too bulky about g-units. I wouldn't call them cheater shoes, because the toe is garbage, imo, but I do call them ugly and style-robbing. Think what you will!
I agree with our Canadian Tree-planting friend. It's just a matter of getting used to your shoes, nomatter what shoes they are; be it g-units or lavers or barefoot or anything... I dig barefoot.
I agree with our Canadian Tree-planting friend. It's just a matter of getting used to your shoes, nomatter what shoes they are; be it g-units or lavers or barefoot or anything... I dig barefoot.
Ben Roscoe
Good points all around it seems, but for Colin's verification, I'll show my latest Gunit clip,
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Z4MLrkLOA[/youtube]
I played a few days after this in Quantums, and there is no way I could hit this drill with the careless-ness and poor concentration as I did with Gunits. With Quantums, you have to freeze the bag, look at it, perfect set, and then perfect catch repeat. With Gunits, all I had to do was get it in the air, put my foot under it, and go. Like, if the bag hit my heel, that is fair game, if it hit my shoelace border, perfect set, etc. I had a few attempts at this drill that were just so sloppy, I couldn't bare to keep it on my camera, until I got this, which was almost satisfactory.
The really flat footed-ness is also encouraged by Gunits, simply by their " < " sole construction. This day was particularily bad, because the insoles I was using made an even steeper slope, which I corrected.
And to Adam,
The thing is, once you get used to a shoe you start to only blame it on yourself, because you are comfortable with this shoes limits-as is normal. But, once you use a different shoe, which has different limits, you can compare. So, for example, I find with furious sets the angle that I can set the bag with Gunits allows me to have a higher, more parabolic arch to the bag which allows me to get consecutive Janiwalkers, as the catch on the first trick is also balanced be a bucket resisting the bag's momentum to just keep following it's path. Once I get to Lavers or Quantums, I find that the bag simply sets 'up' with the same technique, I fumble to get the butterfly, and I'm too off balanced to hit the next one. Not only until I have perfect form, am I able to hit the consecutive Jani's like I want to.
So, when I play for 3 months strictly Quantums, typically the time it takes for 2 of them to break, I only blame things on myself, and the way I hit the tricks. But, if I play a day in Gunits, and the next in Quantums I can compare the shoes limits, and then blame it on the shoe, because my technique would have been the exact same.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Z4MLrkLOA[/youtube]
I played a few days after this in Quantums, and there is no way I could hit this drill with the careless-ness and poor concentration as I did with Gunits. With Quantums, you have to freeze the bag, look at it, perfect set, and then perfect catch repeat. With Gunits, all I had to do was get it in the air, put my foot under it, and go. Like, if the bag hit my heel, that is fair game, if it hit my shoelace border, perfect set, etc. I had a few attempts at this drill that were just so sloppy, I couldn't bare to keep it on my camera, until I got this, which was almost satisfactory.
The really flat footed-ness is also encouraged by Gunits, simply by their " < " sole construction. This day was particularily bad, because the insoles I was using made an even steeper slope, which I corrected.
And to Adam,
The thing is, once you get used to a shoe you start to only blame it on yourself, because you are comfortable with this shoes limits-as is normal. But, once you use a different shoe, which has different limits, you can compare. So, for example, I find with furious sets the angle that I can set the bag with Gunits allows me to have a higher, more parabolic arch to the bag which allows me to get consecutive Janiwalkers, as the catch on the first trick is also balanced be a bucket resisting the bag's momentum to just keep following it's path. Once I get to Lavers or Quantums, I find that the bag simply sets 'up' with the same technique, I fumble to get the butterfly, and I'm too off balanced to hit the next one. Not only until I have perfect form, am I able to hit the consecutive Jani's like I want to.
So, when I play for 3 months strictly Quantums, typically the time it takes for 2 of them to break
, I only blame things on myself, and the way I hit the tricks. But, if I play a day in Gunits, and the next in Quantums I can compare the shoes limits, and then blame it on the shoe, because my technique would have been the exact same.Jay Boychuk
I played with laver toe walls for about two years or so and I found in most cases the walls did not help me catch the bag. If anything the toe walls taught me to set the bag straight up with my toe flat. If my toe was angled from the horizontal plane the bag would slide into the toe wall and get snagged. Similarily, for catches if I didn't put in the effort to catch the bag directly in the middle of the toe it would roll into the sidewalls and get stuck. Granted certain types of toe sets i.e. scoops out of dlo's or rakes might be easier with the toe walls on, but for me these were the exception not the norm as at the time I was mostly interested in atomic and pixie shuffle.and then it dropped into the bucket and hit the other wall to finally stop flopping all around. That is great!"
I've been playing in the same pair of quantum2's for about 2 years now, which in my opinion essentially have no toe walls (even unmodded) and I have to say they have not helped my toe sets at all. I now find on one side that I will often catch the bag way out to the side of the toe and at weird angles. That I can still set out of these situations I find reinforce sloppy control on my part. I did try changing back to lavers a couple weeks before vegas jam and it just was really difficult to get the same kind of sets that I would normally get out of the quantums. I find it takes me at least a month or two to become used to a pair of shoes regardless of style.
Rory "Tophat" Dawson
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"You can ask a stranger, my legs is fast and danger!"
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"You can ask a stranger, my legs is fast and danger!"
I enjoy having toe walls, but not for the sanctity of easy catches or delays. In fact out of all of the shoes I've played in - Lavers, G-units, Quantums - the best shoe with toe walls imo would be the G-units, and the reason for that is because they're big. Huge and bulky.
Why should I express a compassion for huge walls on my toe? In terms of setting the bag, I like challenging myself in performing a proper and straight set, from a flat toe delay, going past the knee. Toe walls help to aggregate this personal mentality of mine in performing sets well, and I absolutely hate it when my sets stray toward an arch or go off to an indirect path where it can be called unclean.
I play in my Quantum 03s these days, and I have the same opinion as what Rory has mentioned in his post above. I haven't really come across a situation where the bag would snag into the corner of my toe, but it is obvious that I don't play in the same level as him. Also, I would like to add that the Quantum toe is still really bad imo, but for better or for worse Quantums are the shoes that I am currently playing in right now. I'll decided whether I should switch to any shoe once they die from too much play.
As for the clipper or general footbag shoe outlook debate, I say that whatever feels comfortable to you while you are out playing footbag is what you should be wearing. Painful footwear can easily put a damper on a joyful footbag session. Surfaces are what you manipulate. Trick execution and variety are what you delegate. Style is what you invigorate.
Why should I express a compassion for huge walls on my toe? In terms of setting the bag, I like challenging myself in performing a proper and straight set, from a flat toe delay, going past the knee. Toe walls help to aggregate this personal mentality of mine in performing sets well, and I absolutely hate it when my sets stray toward an arch or go off to an indirect path where it can be called unclean.
I play in my Quantum 03s these days, and I have the same opinion as what Rory has mentioned in his post above. I haven't really come across a situation where the bag would snag into the corner of my toe, but it is obvious that I don't play in the same level as him. Also, I would like to add that the Quantum toe is still really bad imo, but for better or for worse Quantums are the shoes that I am currently playing in right now. I'll decided whether I should switch to any shoe once they die from too much play.
As for the clipper or general footbag shoe outlook debate, I say that whatever feels comfortable to you while you are out playing footbag is what you should be wearing. Painful footwear can easily put a damper on a joyful footbag session. Surfaces are what you manipulate. Trick execution and variety are what you delegate. Style is what you invigorate.
Waylon Lew - maker of Wasabi bags
NYFA represent.
"Footbag can be pretty frustrating when it's supposed to be fun. I was partly driven by this forum - practice, practice, practice... As that is true, I think someone can be too focused on progressing and training that they miss the fun aspect of it." - Bander87
NYFA represent.
"Footbag can be pretty frustrating when it's supposed to be fun. I was partly driven by this forum - practice, practice, practice... As that is true, I think someone can be too focused on progressing and training that they miss the fun aspect of it." - Bander87
Re: Standards of shoe modification.
I would, that's why I hit cross body rakes so rarely. 99.99% of them are clearly not cross body rakes, but sloppy gyro (non crossbody) rakes. Obviously to do a proper xbdy rake you need to catch the bag in an xbdy position before dragging it through.jay7 wrote:Hey Modified.
As I was showering from the day's shred, I got to thinking about how we judge things in footbag. For example, the first thing that came to mind was Double Legover, if you turn too much, it is considered not properly executed, even though on something like, far rake, if you turned 90 degrees on way or another no one would call you out on anything.
I cut my toe walls off because I like to lace my shoes normally as this feels much better than the silly Kenny Shults lacing method.
I think my style with g-units is just as bad as it was in lavers. Actually it's better in lots of aspects, although that's probably not noticeable to anybody but me. Not that these style changes have anything to do with the shoes - it's just things more like I get over the bag a little more on my butterflies on one side. I agree Units are a bit bulkier than lavers, but this is the main reason I've stuck with them. My feet and ankles no longer hurt after I play footbag - the added bulk is because they give way more support, and I'd rather still be playing footbag when I'm 30 then have better style.
I do agree that units allow you to be a bit lazier in your style and still hit tricks. This is a personal issue though. If I'm playing with people I'll keep going, but when I'm practising if things feel sloppy I keep working on them until they don't. That's really up to individual players to strive for perfect style rather than just being happy being able to hit tricks.
While I agree with Damon that style is subjective, I think there are aspects to style that we can universally agree on are either technically poor, or universally (or close enough) ugly. Most of the issues I have with my own style are really technical issues - if I could hit the moves the way I wanted to I wouldn't just have a better style, I'd be more consistent on those moves as well.
I don't like modding. And I don't like slippery clipper surfaces. I don't think it matters what shoe you wear as long as you're comfortable in it. What I think is not so useful is changing shoes every second session. All that time re-adjusting could be spent drilling comfortably.
I need all the help I can get, and the G6s are the best. Why should I have to struggle? My form and style is good, I have no qualms with it. And if anything G6s look better because they have a flatter surface so it doesn't look like you have a limp ass foot when you clipper stall.
I'm still going to drop like a mofo, just slightly less.
Toe walls have no effect at all on my game, my toe stalls aren't sloppy enough to hit them :p
Don't forget, camo G6s are SEXY. Get with it, get the girls. If you've got some ugly ass mangled frankenstein shoe she gonna look at you an' be like 'nuh uhhhhhhhhh'
I need all the help I can get, and the G6s are the best. Why should I have to struggle? My form and style is good, I have no qualms with it. And if anything G6s look better because they have a flatter surface so it doesn't look like you have a limp ass foot when you clipper stall.
I'm still going to drop like a mofo, just slightly less.
Toe walls have no effect at all on my game, my toe stalls aren't sloppy enough to hit them :p
Don't forget, camo G6s are SEXY. Get with it, get the girls. If you've got some ugly ass mangled frankenstein shoe she gonna look at you an' be like 'nuh uhhhhhhhhh'
James McCullough
I honestly can't tell any difference in style when people like Jorden/Dave use different shoes.
Rather than write a long post, I'm just going to highlight quotes that I agree with from this thread:
Rather than write a long post, I'm just going to highlight quotes that I agree with from this thread:
habitat wrote:Can you really blame a shoe for "ugly" style? Isn't it your style?
Colin wrote:Post or create a vid demonstrating ugly gunit style. I'm not convinced it exists other than as some sort of guilt trip.
SlashC wrote: I played with laver toe walls for about two years or so and I found in most cases the walls did not help me catch the bag. If anything the toe walls taught me to set the bag straight up with my toe flat. .
Jeremy wrote: I agree Units are a bit bulkier than lavers, but this is the main reason I've stuck with them. My feet and ankles no longer hurt after I play footbag
I do agree that units allow you to be a bit lazier in your style and still hit tricks. This is a personal issue though. That's really up to individual players to strive for perfect style rather than just being happy being able to hit tricks.
.
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james_dean
- space cowboy
- Posts: 2268
- Joined: 26 Oct 2004 23:11
- Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia
Whether gunits are a help or a hindrance is definitely a personal issue:
(I'm gonna do what Ken did)
All in all, myself I'm for perfect form and style and feeling tight and controlled with everything, but I recognise that's not everyone's deal. Also, I've never actually played in gunits, just going by comments.
(I'm gonna do what Ken did)
Jeremy wrote:My feet and ankles no longer hurt after I play footbag - the added bulk is because they give way more support, and I'd rather still be playing footbag when I'm 30 then have better style.
Wasabi wrote:Why should I express a compassion for huge walls on my toe? In terms of setting the bag, I like challenging myself in performing a proper and straight set, from a flat toe delay, going past the knee. Toe walls help to aggregate this personal mentality of mine in performing sets well, and I absolutely hate it when my sets stray toward an arch or go off to an indirect path where it can be called unclean.
Def. If you let the walls help you the set is going to suck ball...SlashC wrote:I played with laver toe walls for about two years or so and I found in most cases the walls did not help me catch the bag. If anything the toe walls taught me to set the bag straight up with my toe flat.
Totally sucks. If I throw my foot out there and it sticks I'm not proud. When it's tight, exact and controlled, them I'm proud and happy, because I controlled that bitch.jay7 wrote:I played a few days after this in Quantums, and there is no way I could hit this drill with the careless-ness and poor concentration as I did with Gunits.
So true.Jeremy wrote:If I'm playing with people I'll keep going, but when I'm practising if things feel sloppy I keep working on them until they don't. That's really up to individual players to strive for perfect style rather than just being happy being able to hit tricks.
Another good point - not everyone is playing for perfect style/form etc.james wrote:I need all the help I can get, and the G6s are the best. Why should I have to struggle? My form and style is good, I have no qualms with it.
All in all, myself I'm for perfect form and style and feeling tight and controlled with everything, but I recognise that's not everyone's deal. Also, I've never actually played in gunits, just going by comments.
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Sporatical_Distractions
- registered sacks offender
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- Location: Guy's American Kitchen & Bar
I also felt that my style was ugly when I used g-units. After 2.5-3 years in them, I switched to quantum2's at Worlds07. I still don't like my style, but it's not as ugly as it used to be.
Personally, I think it's from lugging around the heavy weight of the g-units and bailing to the scoopy surfaces as opposed to working more on form with the lightweight quantum2's. But some people have awesome style with g-units. I just wasn't one of those people
Just like stated before though, this is a subjective opinion.
Personally, I think it's from lugging around the heavy weight of the g-units and bailing to the scoopy surfaces as opposed to working more on form with the lightweight quantum2's. But some people have awesome style with g-units. I just wasn't one of those people
Just like stated before though, this is a subjective opinion.
Welcome to Flavortown
Kevin Crowley
Kevin Crowley
The thing about shoe mods is that most people in the world, myself definitely included, don't really care about perfect technique and would rather have some fun with tricks being easier to hit. It's great that there is a bunch of people wanting to push for technical perfection and they should keep going in this regard. It's just that shoe mods make it easier for people who are not in that tiny minority to get into the game in the first place and survive the frustrations of playing.
If it makes you happy to hit better tricks, then wear what makes you hit those tricks.
Personally, I like playing in Lavers with only the normal toe box modded. It's the old way of doing it, but I like to know that I'm hitting tricks with the same advantages/disadvantages as the original pros.
The only thing I truly disagree with is toe tricks with no shoes on.
Personally, I like playing in Lavers with only the normal toe box modded. It's the old way of doing it, but I like to know that I'm hitting tricks with the same advantages/disadvantages as the original pros.
The only thing I truly disagree with is toe tricks with no shoes on.
