Why are footbags that are handstitched apparently better?
Why are footbags that are handstitched apparently better?
sorry if there is a thread for this all ready
Adding on to what Nathan said, people who hand stitch know what players are looking for in a good freestyle footbag, and use the right materials. For example, many mass produced bags are made with inferior materials, such as synthetic suede that is not UltraSuede Light, and sand, pellets, or steel shot as filler. It's common knowledge on Modified that UltraSuede Light or Amaretta break in to make the best freestyle bags, and these fillers on their own will not work well inside of a bag. So basically, stay away from mass produced bags, unless you're going for a common beginner bag like a Sandmaster Footbag (I learned a lot of the basics on these bags). Any stitcher on Modified will make you a great bag, no matter where you are in your skill level.
that's the second time I've read something like that lately.fool wrote: Any stitcher on Modified will make you a great bag, no matter where you are in your skill level.
There are LOTS of good stitchers on modified, but not EVERY stitcher is good.
I would say, stick to the ones that have consistent good reviews, and read through the stitcher's For Sale thread to find those reviews and other important info.
BRICK!
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
I'll take the girth and back up Pakistani stitchers. I don't care if this harms my reputation as a stitcher.
Lotus works with Pakistani stitchers. This is a fact. Pakistani stitchers have a bad rep for making bad bags and having a bad showmanship in the work field for their labor conditions. With this logic, it is undeniable that Lotus has a poor reputation as a footbag distributor in the footbag world, especially in the freestyle footbag world. And it is undeniable that his past products distributed from his deals with Pakistani stitchers have been severely poor (poor material, large steel shot, etc.). And with this knowledge in mind, as well as the fervent questioning and feedback of how superior hand-stitched footbags made by those that have the background in freestyle (modified) have over the mass-produced, it is obvious that Lotus is at the deep end. He is at a severe disadvantage.
But let's also make this clear: What footbags do you see in the market that is made by sewing machines or machines that pump out footbags through a production line? The latter is a slight exaggeration, because I have yet to see a machine make an entire footbag without human hands (sewing is a semi-delicate process), but footbags can be mass-produced through a production line, and are usually made by humans. The ones that come to mind, in my opinion, are Freedom 4-panels (sewing machine, autonomous back-stitched, with the last 1/8th section hand-sewn after filling with a tight close), and mostly bags from World Footbag or Footbag[dot]com. Most of these mass-produced footbags are not practical footbags to freestyle with (but are practical enough to do consecutive kicking with), and aside from the Freedom 4-panel Mr. Sandbag it is natural to think that you should not invest money in areas that are not tried-and-true.
Lotus' footbag website, Elemental Footbags, has gone through many changes, and with the 10th anniversary range he has finally hit the mark. His advanced freestyle "Pakistani-made" footbags are filled with, what I assume is, size 10+ steel shot and are all individually filled at 55 grams which is the normal fill weight for freestyle today. They feel and play floppy and are non-toxic. The fabric material is ranged from decent to strong. With proper washing and care, they can last for a good while. They are also cheap and affordable. The advanced freestyle range is of comparable size with bags you usually see from bags made from the modified or freestyle footbag community.
I'm going to go through a small critical explanation through the latter portion of my post, so if you find it too retarded to read, just skip it or openly debate about it.
Slightly off-topic, but I understand and can reflect on the scrutiny of Pakistani-made products, or rather, products made in third-world countries or countries that monopolize on cheap labor. I'm a full-blooded Chinese man that was born in America and was raised on the ideals of the American dream while struggling/juggling with the ideologies that are prevalent in poor or migrant families, such as sweatshop labor and the pitfalls of working family life (I apologize for this small plug about my life, but I will argue my case afterwards). What I find troubling about the scrutiny of Pakistani-made products is not the poor quality of the products themselves, but rather the top-down mentality that comes with the product; that it is of lower-quality, can never match up with existing products, and was made in a background which is subjugated by labor conditions that American society finds offensive.
I have talked extensively with Lotus concerning the matters of his production line of footbags and the ethics* of his company associating with Pakistani stitchers. And with his 10th anniversary line I've come to the thought of whether a low-quality product can ever match up, or even come close to, an existing product and have a chance to compete on fair grounds with it (within the basis of affordability, availability, and performance). And from what I can see, the 10th anniversary 32-panel FREESTYLER and 20-panel SHOOTER have great chances to compete with footbag stitchers today, especially those within the modified community. And his other "freestyle" line of footbags are also made well to compete with size and visual differences, and they all perform to their own standard(s).
Even with the low status that comes from Pakistani stitchers, and the critical, objective eye that is looked down on Lotus' company Elemental Footbags, we should understand that not all footbags are made by machine (unless they are of a very simplistic design like a 4-panel). Lotus knowingly understands that he cannot dominate the exquisite craftmanship of footbag stitchers that know how to make the "perfect footbag" fit for their customers, but he has worked very hard to provide to the footbag world with affordable footbags that can be used for freestyle. And this is a strong goal that you do not see with most other footbag distributing companies aside from Freedom Footbags and maybe Dragonfly footbags - footbags that are mass produced and made for freestyle.
With what little money is made from making affordable footbags, Pakistani stitchers still need income to survive on what they do, and they have families to support. They are not an invisible community, although from how I see it their reputation forces them to be viewed as so.
*Just for the record, the stitchers that Lotus has associated in his company are all adults and are of working family backgrounds. They are paid well for their efforts, and survive on their work as makers of footbags.
PS: And to make this clear, I've started making bags since March of 2006 I believe (from what I can deduce in the "Bags I've (or any stitcher) has made" thread) and have actively made many footbags for some of the best players in the United States and Canada (and maybe parts of Europe). I have also bought and played with many footbags from a variety of footbag stitchers and companies and have a good eye on their products and craftmanship. If you find that my post about "Elemental Footbags" to be too preachy, you might be correct. I find that Lotus' company has finally done something that no other footbag distributing company has done, and he needs all the praise he can get.
Lotus works with Pakistani stitchers. This is a fact. Pakistani stitchers have a bad rep for making bad bags and having a bad showmanship in the work field for their labor conditions. With this logic, it is undeniable that Lotus has a poor reputation as a footbag distributor in the footbag world, especially in the freestyle footbag world. And it is undeniable that his past products distributed from his deals with Pakistani stitchers have been severely poor (poor material, large steel shot, etc.). And with this knowledge in mind, as well as the fervent questioning and feedback of how superior hand-stitched footbags made by those that have the background in freestyle (modified) have over the mass-produced, it is obvious that Lotus is at the deep end. He is at a severe disadvantage.
But let's also make this clear: What footbags do you see in the market that is made by sewing machines or machines that pump out footbags through a production line? The latter is a slight exaggeration, because I have yet to see a machine make an entire footbag without human hands (sewing is a semi-delicate process), but footbags can be mass-produced through a production line, and are usually made by humans. The ones that come to mind, in my opinion, are Freedom 4-panels (sewing machine, autonomous back-stitched, with the last 1/8th section hand-sewn after filling with a tight close), and mostly bags from World Footbag or Footbag[dot]com. Most of these mass-produced footbags are not practical footbags to freestyle with (but are practical enough to do consecutive kicking with), and aside from the Freedom 4-panel Mr. Sandbag it is natural to think that you should not invest money in areas that are not tried-and-true.
Lotus' footbag website, Elemental Footbags, has gone through many changes, and with the 10th anniversary range he has finally hit the mark. His advanced freestyle "Pakistani-made" footbags are filled with, what I assume is, size 10+ steel shot and are all individually filled at 55 grams which is the normal fill weight for freestyle today. They feel and play floppy and are non-toxic. The fabric material is ranged from decent to strong. With proper washing and care, they can last for a good while. They are also cheap and affordable. The advanced freestyle range is of comparable size with bags you usually see from bags made from the modified or freestyle footbag community.
I'm going to go through a small critical explanation through the latter portion of my post, so if you find it too retarded to read, just skip it or openly debate about it.
Slightly off-topic, but I understand and can reflect on the scrutiny of Pakistani-made products, or rather, products made in third-world countries or countries that monopolize on cheap labor. I'm a full-blooded Chinese man that was born in America and was raised on the ideals of the American dream while struggling/juggling with the ideologies that are prevalent in poor or migrant families, such as sweatshop labor and the pitfalls of working family life (I apologize for this small plug about my life, but I will argue my case afterwards). What I find troubling about the scrutiny of Pakistani-made products is not the poor quality of the products themselves, but rather the top-down mentality that comes with the product; that it is of lower-quality, can never match up with existing products, and was made in a background which is subjugated by labor conditions that American society finds offensive.
I have talked extensively with Lotus concerning the matters of his production line of footbags and the ethics* of his company associating with Pakistani stitchers. And with his 10th anniversary line I've come to the thought of whether a low-quality product can ever match up, or even come close to, an existing product and have a chance to compete on fair grounds with it (within the basis of affordability, availability, and performance). And from what I can see, the 10th anniversary 32-panel FREESTYLER and 20-panel SHOOTER have great chances to compete with footbag stitchers today, especially those within the modified community. And his other "freestyle" line of footbags are also made well to compete with size and visual differences, and they all perform to their own standard(s).
Even with the low status that comes from Pakistani stitchers, and the critical, objective eye that is looked down on Lotus' company Elemental Footbags, we should understand that not all footbags are made by machine (unless they are of a very simplistic design like a 4-panel). Lotus knowingly understands that he cannot dominate the exquisite craftmanship of footbag stitchers that know how to make the "perfect footbag" fit for their customers, but he has worked very hard to provide to the footbag world with affordable footbags that can be used for freestyle. And this is a strong goal that you do not see with most other footbag distributing companies aside from Freedom Footbags and maybe Dragonfly footbags - footbags that are mass produced and made for freestyle.
With what little money is made from making affordable footbags, Pakistani stitchers still need income to survive on what they do, and they have families to support. They are not an invisible community, although from how I see it their reputation forces them to be viewed as so.
*Just for the record, the stitchers that Lotus has associated in his company are all adults and are of working family backgrounds. They are paid well for their efforts, and survive on their work as makers of footbags.
PS: And to make this clear, I've started making bags since March of 2006 I believe (from what I can deduce in the "Bags I've (or any stitcher) has made" thread) and have actively made many footbags for some of the best players in the United States and Canada (and maybe parts of Europe). I have also bought and played with many footbags from a variety of footbag stitchers and companies and have a good eye on their products and craftmanship. If you find that my post about "Elemental Footbags" to be too preachy, you might be correct. I find that Lotus' company has finally done something that no other footbag distributing company has done, and he needs all the praise he can get.
Waylon Lew - maker of Wasabi bags
NYFA represent.
"Footbag can be pretty frustrating when it's supposed to be fun. I was partly driven by this forum - practice, practice, practice... As that is true, I think someone can be too focused on progressing and training that they miss the fun aspect of it." - Bander87
NYFA represent.
"Footbag can be pretty frustrating when it's supposed to be fun. I was partly driven by this forum - practice, practice, practice... As that is true, I think someone can be too focused on progressing and training that they miss the fun aspect of it." - Bander87
Go Wasabi
If you have any interpretation of me looking down upon the pakistani population that is false but i have heard that there products are inferior i have not played with them
Waylon you sound very qualified having played with many stitchers and lotus bagsso i trust your views since i have nothing to base my own on your post was very informative i did not know any of that
If you have any interpretation of me looking down upon the pakistani population that is false but i have heard that there products are inferior i have not played with them
Waylon you sound very qualified having played with many stitchers and lotus bagsso i trust your views since i have nothing to base my own on your post was very informative i did not know any of that
Some thoughts:
I would take some of the reviews in the for sale section with a grain salt.
Go for reviews by well respected players and stitchers (such as Matt Cross and Waylon).
Trio 8 panel is another mass produced, machine made bag that is a decent freestyle bag.
Proof:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHsBdVyK ... annel_page
[/youtube]
I have also seen Felix Zenger make really really shitty footbags into super amazing footbags with the right care (washing, breaking in, adding heavy filler, etc).
I would take some of the reviews in the for sale section with a grain salt.
Go for reviews by well respected players and stitchers (such as Matt Cross and Waylon).
Trio 8 panel is another mass produced, machine made bag that is a decent freestyle bag.
Proof:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHsBdVyK ... annel_page
[/youtube]
I have also seen Felix Zenger make really really shitty footbags into super amazing footbags with the right care (washing, breaking in, adding heavy filler, etc).
You can make bad bags play better with care, mods, etc.... I had a really choice Hemp bag once.
...Buts that requires extra effort. Like breaking in a new pair of old skool Lavers (the bricks).
I have played with many, many, bags over the past 12 years. I have worked with Pakistan, sampled their products, distributed "Dirt Bags" and Paki Juices, and bought from a number of qualified stitchers.
In my experience there have only been a handful of bags that I would call appropriate for Professional Footbag and I would rank them as such:
1.) Abshire Fearless 55 - Good to go right out of the box.
2.) Abshire Mini "Money Bag" - Too bad this material is obsoleted
3.) Carol Bag - Best standard bag ever!
4.) Mungus - I want paul to come out of retirement and make me a dozen. LOL
I have played with a good number of other stitcher made bags, and they just didn't do it for me. They were either too flat paneled for my taste, under-filled, or made with too stiff a material.
What I didn't care for with the Paki bags was the roundness and thickness of the material. They never fully broke in for me.
Ultimately it would be nice to see a cheap alternative available in stores to replace the crap that is there today.
~peace
...Buts that requires extra effort. Like breaking in a new pair of old skool Lavers (the bricks).
I have played with many, many, bags over the past 12 years. I have worked with Pakistan, sampled their products, distributed "Dirt Bags" and Paki Juices, and bought from a number of qualified stitchers.
In my experience there have only been a handful of bags that I would call appropriate for Professional Footbag and I would rank them as such:
1.) Abshire Fearless 55 - Good to go right out of the box.
2.) Abshire Mini "Money Bag" - Too bad this material is obsoleted
3.) Carol Bag - Best standard bag ever!
4.) Mungus - I want paul to come out of retirement and make me a dozen. LOL
I have played with a good number of other stitcher made bags, and they just didn't do it for me. They were either too flat paneled for my taste, under-filled, or made with too stiff a material.
What I didn't care for with the Paki bags was the roundness and thickness of the material. They never fully broke in for me.
Ultimately it would be nice to see a cheap alternative available in stores to replace the crap that is there today.
~peace
Go out and shred already.
~Damon Mathews
~Damon Mathews
Not to toot my own horn, but I can make an abshire mini "money bag," or money bags in general. I'm very certain that I have the colors required to make that, and I know extensively about Abshire's template and sewing style (had to repair plenty of abshires, both worn-in and new, in the past). What I don't have is his shot filler, but I feel that lead can be a good replacement.
And Carol bags are off the hook (the working ones, at least). I wish I was able to play with a Mungus bag, because I've heard so many good things about them, but I think the one oldschool stitcher that doesn't get enough credit is James Hermey. He made some pretty dope bags.
If I can find Lonn Irish/Vo, it would be an honor for me to make a 32 for her as a gift. I've had a lot of good memories with Lonn bags.
And Carol bags are off the hook (the working ones, at least). I wish I was able to play with a Mungus bag, because I've heard so many good things about them, but I think the one oldschool stitcher that doesn't get enough credit is James Hermey. He made some pretty dope bags.
If I can find Lonn Irish/Vo, it would be an honor for me to make a 32 for her as a gift. I've had a lot of good memories with Lonn bags.
Waylon Lew - maker of Wasabi bags
NYFA represent.
"Footbag can be pretty frustrating when it's supposed to be fun. I was partly driven by this forum - practice, practice, practice... As that is true, I think someone can be too focused on progressing and training that they miss the fun aspect of it." - Bander87
NYFA represent.
"Footbag can be pretty frustrating when it's supposed to be fun. I was partly driven by this forum - practice, practice, practice... As that is true, I think someone can be too focused on progressing and training that they miss the fun aspect of it." - Bander87
