Gyro Toe Delay ADD disagreement

[mc]

There are two footbag players, named A and B. They have a conversation that goes like this.

A: "Gyro toe is a three ADD trick. One ADD recognizes the gyro element, one ADD recognizes the rake element, and one ADD recognizes the delay. I feel that all these elements are clearly present in the trick, I have always thought of it this way, and that is why I'm right."

B: "Gyro toe is a two ADD trick. One ADD recognizes the gyro element and one ADD recognizes the delay.

Furthermore, calling this trick "gyro toe" is actually more of an approximation or misnomer, because most people do it with some rake style. However, we don't have a way of writing with Jobs notation "just like a rake except the bag travels past the outside of your shoe as opposed to the inside". We call it a gyro toe because of the path the bag takes, and yes, I agree that there is a rake element to the trick, but the effort or difficulty that would be recognized by the Rake Dex ADD is already recognized by the slightly-inaccurate Body ADD on the "spin" (a similar Body Spin ADD recognizes a similar "spin" on osis, which, like gyro toe, has a slight element of "spin", but really more an element of "carry". If it had a true spin, it would be much more similar, if not entirely similar to a gyro clipper).

So, to recognize difficulty for both a Spin and a Rake element is "double dipping" the single true element which is really a combo of a spin and a rake. Furthermore, it's not appropriate to suggest use of a Rake Dex ADD because the path the bag takes to the toe contact is significantly different to the path that the bag takes to what is traditionally called a Rake, so that is why it is recognized by a Spin Body ADD, and that is why I'm right."

Who is right?

[Tsiangkun]

It is a two add trick.

[Jokse]

I´d say it´s a 2 add trick, i really don´t find anything rake-ish in it. Just spin and delay.

[Jazzkid]

I always think of gyro toe as a 2 add move - One add for gyro and one add for the delay. I dont really even see how it could be a three. A video of said stylish rake might help.

[Ners]

2 Adds if we want to stick to the current system. If it would be 3 then Osis would be 4 by the same logic (there's almost always an element of "carry" in the execution of this trick).

What is interesting is the fact, that even though we have a Worlds event that is based on adds (Shred30), the adds themselves are not clearly defined in all cases (i.e. the grey area between a clipper and a frigidosis, no clear boundaries on defining spin categories, carry moves not covered by the system).

Can this be fixed without replacing the add system (which many have tried and failed)? Is this kind of regulations really needed since adds are only used for Shred30? Do we need more clearly and officially defined concepts in our sport? Could this kind of discussion lead to anything? I don't know, maybe not

Pozdrawiam
Szymon Kałwak (Ners)

[C-Fan]

I feel like if gyro toe is executed well, then it's 2 adds. If it becomes rake-y, then it's 3, but I'd call that trick more of a reverse xbdy rake (xbdy rake is like a far swirl bailed to toe, whereas the trick I'm describing is like far rev swirl bailed to toe). A well-executed gyro toe is worth fewer adds, but is harder (and cooler looking to boot, imo).

[Asmus]

I agree about the 2 add. Otherwise many peoples gyro pickups would be 4s.
Its a nice trick though.

[mc]

I feel like if gyro toe is executed well, then it's 2 adds. If it becomes rake-y, then it's 3, but I'd call that trick more of a reverse xbdy rake (xbdy rake is like a far swirl bailed to toe, whereas the trick I'm describing is like far rev swirl bailed to toe). A well-executed gyro toe is worth fewer adds, but is harder (and cooler looking to boot, imo).

hey Ken,

I count xbd rake as a 2 add, and also would count a "reverse xbd rake" (most people's gyro toes) the same way. Can you please tell me the three adds that you're counting there?

[WyrmFyre]

Im trying to hit this right now. Not sure if im doing it right or not but it does kinda feel like a very lazy DLO?

Might be able to knock a quick vid together if anyones interested

Edit : *Think* I just hit it, from a clipper set. Can imagine that from an outside perspective it looks quite stylie!

Edit the second : And i retract my original statement, doesnt feel like a lazy DLO.

[mc]

The first time I showed steve goldberg my attempts at gyro toe, that ("lazy DLO") is almost exactly how he described it. He may have used the word "sloppy" or "slurry" or something like that.

So ya, it can be a bit like that.

[WyrmFyre]

Just a quick heads up, I am topless, and it aint all that pretty, but suck it up, and squint your eyes!

My attempt at gyro toe.......

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgBfZf0HdGg[/youtube]

Ive voted it a 2 add. I found it a bit harder than a rake, but if butterfly is an easy 3 add, theres no reason why there cant be "BOP-like" two's as well. I think its one for the gyro, one for the delay.

[Jazzkid]

I am curious to where the rest of this discussion goes. I will post some videos with questions soon. In my first post, i thought of gyro toe WAY DIFFERENT then the above video (which looks like a sloppy clipper set x body rake to me now), but I do alot of variations on the above trick
The amount of adds awarded I am now unsure of

[mc]

Ian, that is a gyro toe as I understand it. I call the rakey style a gyro toe for the previous reasons I explained. I consider gyro toe one of those moves like osis where the place where you catch it and the amount carrying is a bit flexible, and it is going to look slightly different from move to move from the same player depending on what other trick elements are present in the move.

I think it's clean and looks good. props.

[C-Fan]

I count xbd rake as a 2 add, and also would count a "reverse xbd rake" (most people's gyro toes) the same way. Can you please tell me the three adds that you're counting there?

I remember being taught that xbd rake was 3 adds, thought I'm not sure it was ever clearly spelled out to me why. It certainly gets a delay add and a xbdy add. I guess I always assumed the third add was a body add for carrying the bag out of xbdy position, in the same manner that osis gets a body add for its similar turn. That sounds right to me.

And I also think gyro toe can be "the." An example of a great gyro toe is Ryan Thomas' strong side.

[Jazzkid]

In this video--- I call these tricks like this ..in order 1. gyro toe 2. same side clipper set x body rake, 3. swirling gyro toe. 4. swirling x body rake and if you add a gyro to the swirling x body rake you then get the last trick which is 5. swirling gyro pickup. I feel that you cant say a trick is gyro unless you have to turn and look to catch the bag. My gyro toe is 2 adds , X body rake is 3.... Thoughts?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QCnuS_t7x0[/youtube]

[Matt K]

In the second move, you're doing a rake. A gyro toe is the downtime version of the first move you did; you have to go "around" the bag in the other direction from a rake. ie it has to pass by the outside of your ankle instead of the inside.

[mc]

re: xbd rake, steve g says this -

"Oh, and to be clear, on the cross-body rake question -- it's cross-body [xbd] toe-stall [del] carry [dex]."

So, if you apply that to a rakey gyro toe, looks like B is wrong, but for a true gyro toe, it is only 2 adds... Now, where do you draw the line? do you have to be fully spun before the catch for it to be 2 adds?

f***.

[FlexThis]

xbd rake is a 3 add move. Gyro rake would also be a 3. But the question was for gyro toe which is a 2 add move.

When I first hit pixie paradon rake at worlds I was told I was in a handful of people that had hit a quad dex. To this day I do not see xbd rake as a dex move, but rather a body move. That body add being a flyer (or so I was told by Pete back in the day). Regardless of which it is (guessing Steve is correct???), it has never been that popular a move nor regarded as that difficult a move. In fact, it was regarded as an add hunting move.

Which is why I do them so much

~peace

[WyrmFyre]

I dont mean to derail the topic, but if a "Carry" gets an add as per that xbod rake descripton, then wouldnt Osis be 4?

Spin [1]
Carry / Dex [1]
Clipper [2]

Or in doing the spin, you do the carry at the same time and therefore its combined into one.

So confused

[FlexThis]

I do not believe a proper osis has a carry. I know it is easier to hit osis with a carry, but it shouldn't have one. I also didn't think osis had a spin either, but rather a blind bod move. I could be way off...have been for years.

~peace