Impassive Sentiments With Regards to Stitching Foundation

[Wasabi]

I'm going to repost this post from Blose's topic "Need help with stitching techniques" to give everyone a sense of what I've been seeing with stitching these days, and the impassivity of the stitchwork by the stitcher in making a shred-for-your-buck bag so to speak:

The most important step in stitching is this: KNOT YOUR WORK ON THE BEGINNING AND AT THE END PER PANEL.

It pains me, literally, to see bags that break-in beautifully and then have one (or few) oblong pentagon(s) eventually expand and pop a stitch. This cannot go on any further. The moment you see a bag with this shoddy stitchwork, immediately review this bag with constructive criticism, because half the time the stitcher doesn't know the life expectancy of the bags they sell, and they can be miles away from you to help repair the bag.

Bags made to sell should be made to be tough and not blow stitches. If you're a stitcher, you bet your needle that you should make bags that have an excellent foundation in your stitching. The days where simple knots, or threads that end somewhere with this big bulb of thread made to be a "stopper," but don't directly knot *exactly* where the stitching begins will eventually bust with enough abuse.

I knot where I begin a panel, and end my stitching exactly where I first began by knotting with tight, consecutive single thread knots. I have never experienced a popped stitch since having revised my technique at the end of World's '07.

I believe my point in expressing this frustration is a valid one, and all too often I've seen bags pop a stitch after several shred sessions, or that the panels themselves become so oblong that they inhibit the bags true performance.

Good day modified. Hopefully people can get a sense that the speed in making a bag is not as important as making one that won't die out from dedicated use. Please focus and make bags that are truly noteworthy to your name, and make sure your bags won't, I repeat, won't pop or bust a stitch.

-Waylon

[Nathan]

Do people actually not do this? It seems like common sense to me.

Or are you talking about the people who melt instead of knot?

[Donovon]

Hopefully people can get a sense that the speed in making a bag is not as important as making one that won't die out from dedicated use.
-Waylon

I completely agree with this too.
Turning bags out quick usually leads to less than top quality stitching, which is unacceptable when others are involved.

~Donovon

[mc]

Some of the best playing bags I've owned and used have had some of the very most unprofessional stitching you could imagine - threads showing, uneven gather, lumpiness, oblong panels, etc. The RFA's current preferred shred bag (Will Digges's VERY FIRST 32) is one of these bags. None of the unprofessionally stitched bags to which I'm referring have had any kind of reduced life span.

I have also had some bags with immaculate stitching, but with a fill type that just doesn't make sense to me - full and light. I will shred an ugly, oblong footbag that is empty and heavy, instead of a beautiful footbag that is too full and too light, any day. Having a sensible fill is way more important than good stitching when playability is concerned.

Waylon, I think you should take two minutes of raw footage of you using a badly stitched, oblong bag, and then take two minutes of raw footage of you using the best bag you have, and then post those as one four minute video, so you can demonstrate the difference in your level of play from one bag to the next. I think that might better help people understand where you're coming from.

I think nice stitching is a good thing, but I do not feel that it is as pivotal to a bag's performance and life span as Waylon does.

[Wasabi]

Exactly what you meant in the latter portion of your sentence, Nathan.

Matt, you're missing the point. I speak as a producer and as a consumer/customer. As a consumer, especially if I'm new to footbag and modified, I expect to have a bag that will be reliable and will keep up with me as I progress into the sport that is Footbag. This is especially important if I'm a professional player that puts time into my daily regimen to train for competition, and has invested money into a product that will accomplish that.

If I put $20-35+ into a faulty footbag, what kind of sentiment would I have in regards to the product and the stitcher if it breaks down prematurely? What if I lived in the middle of America or in some obscure country where Footbag is not a popularized sport, have a faulty footbag that has a busted stitch, and have no talent to sew it back up? Should I use glue or a band-aid to patch it?

It's like giving a line cook a chipped knife to chop stuff at a restaurant. Imagine that restaurant was a 5-Star restaurant, and you're expect to make fine cuts on meats and vegetables.

Of course, there is user error on equipment, especially high-end equipment, but it's expected that the maker of the equipment should make it so that's right and fit for the user as well.

I don't need video footage to prove this point. This is the pure basic concept of sales and reliability.

[akalazou]

Waylon, in a 5 star restaurant, even if the vegetable arent cut perfectly, they will taste the same anyways. i think thats what MC tried to explain. thats it, ultra even bags barely exist imo, my best bag ever made (that i have) isnt even at all ... i think that even if the bag is 100% perfect (talking about the stitching only) but the filler sucks, it wont be a good bag ... i changed the filler of a footfighter ... i dont like their filler but if you put lead in it, they become awesome .... it just depends on what you prefer. thats it, a beatifull bag doesnt mean its a good bag, its just ... beautifull

[Wasabi]

Popped. Stitch.

Rpt.

[will_T]

popping stitches is more a problem with shallow bite depth. once you get under 1mm, you run into danger. or uneven stitches, where the edges aren't parallel during stitching.

of course, there are lots of variables. weightier bags will obviously put more strain on seams, but the pulling force isn't linear with the direction the stitch runs. more abrasive fill types could potentially fray and pop the string or floss, particularly with rough play. the possibilities are endless. there are a lot of well renowned stitchers here who swear by floss. you just need to be sure you leave a consistent amount of it (about 1.5-2cm) and get a good melt (not a burn). i always wash my hands once or twice during stitching to prevent the floss from getting oily and burning.

could the problem be how you wash your bags?

and wash gently! don't mash it or stretch the bag. i massage hand soap onto the panels and just sort of slip it around in my hand under lukewarm water. just a little friction on the surface to remove the dirt.

Squeeze that ****er out. Don't underestimate the strength of ultrasuede light.

Amaretta is a material that you should be concerned with when washing a bag.

it just seems like you're having problems others aren't nearly as often.

[Tsiangkun]

I have had one popped stitch in 12 years of using Abshire bags.

YMMV, but it has never been a problem for me.

[mc]

ah, so nathan cleared that up - this is about melting floss. I thought this was about technical stitching.

okay, I flat out think you're wrong. Also, I don't think that that's a sign of my "passivity", nor do I think your use of thread is a sign of your "impassivity" (could you be any more obtuse?).

The sentence that I *think* I most disagree with (I say "think" because if you read it, you'll see that it doesn't make any sense) is this one -

"The days where simple knots, or threads that end somewhere with this big bulb of thread made to be a "stopper," but don't directly knot *exactly* where the stitching begins will eventually bust with enough abuse."

All bags will eventually bust with enough abuse!

Using melted floss does not guarantee some sort of malfunction.

The sentence I do agree with is this-

"The moment you see a bag with this shoddy stitchwork, immediately review this bag with constructive criticism, because half the time the stitcher doesn't know the life expectancy of the bags they sell, and they can be miles away from you to help repair the bag. "

If your bag busts, give it a bad review and / or talk to the stitcher. You should probably talk to the stitcher first, because the two or three times this has happened to me IN 400+ FLOSS BAGS, I have replaced the bag with one that didn't bust.

I think the original post in this thread is addressing an issue that does not exist.

[Wasabi]

I've had a good handful of bags that popped a stitch from any type of play - freestyle, general hack, 4-square - and I had to repair them with simple needle and thread all the time. If not myself my club mates and circle of friends. And if you know me and my style of play, I'm a pretty gentle kicker and treat my bags with a decent level of abuse (nothing extraneous). However, to see me finding a bag that I exclusively use bust a panel, made by another stitcher, I should be aware of what type of stitching style was implemented to result into this busted stitch. Nine times out of ten, it is as I've mentioned over and over: little foundation on securing a solid knot from beginning to end on the sewing path of said panel.

My initial post is addressing the issue of impractical foundation that can possibly issue a leeway to busting or popping the thread/stitch on a panel, and this is because the continuity of how a panel is sewn is not connected and solidly tied or bound together. I am also addressing the notion that stitchers are taking this mentality as "the way things are" as accountable for having the panel having that small possibility of weak foundation, and don't blame it on their technique but on user error. I've seen and dissected so many bags that have a tied or melted "stopper" that eventually, with enough abuse, won't keep its initial form any longer.

An overly stretched panel is a good sign that that panel will bust. It doesn't detriment on the bag's overall performance, but it's a sure sign for a bad blowout.

And also, Will T, when I wash a bag, I expect to get the bag clean so that I don't have to deal with gunky fill of rust build-up. Squeezing is a necessity in my book to get that issue over with in the washing process. But, since squeezing is a requisite, I am also expected to believe the bag I'm "roughing up" when washing is supposed to have a solid build in its stitching. As you have said, a lot of factors can play a role, but as a stitcher, producer and maker of your ware you should have a solid idea that your product doesn't face premature breaking.

I don't understand why I'm being contested on this issue. Be aware that most bags that are sold and have busted can also be undocumented as well, leaving only the initial grateful posts of the bag received glamorously reviewed to support the stitcher. I'm just stating that there's a way for YOU, THE STITCHER, to MAKE BAGS that are SECURE and don't ENLARGE the PANELS which is a FINE SIGN for the PANEL to BUST A STITCH. I'm speaking to everyone to enhance the dependency on your productivity, which is just a simple remodification on your technique.

Geez.

[Tsiangkun]

Seriously, ONE popped stitch in 12 years of purchasing bags from Richard.

If you can measure your popped stitches on a 9 out of 10 basis, you need to do one of two things.

1) Stop buying bags from crappy stitchers.

2) Learn how to treat a bag.

[akalazou]

id say option number 2 would be the best