Is reverse cleanliness an indication of cleanliness?

[mc]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_guqTrvYLU[/youtube]

The first move I hit in this video is a swirlingspinning (I don't separate the words because they happen at the same time) pdx whirl.

At first glance, the swirl looks like the tiniest possible flip you could ever get out of a swirl, and the whirl looks like it goes over the bag (ie: thin, and The).

Upon watching in reverse, it is an absolutely textbook reverse whirling set far dyno.


as cleanliness of this move goes, the bottom line for me is I look at the motion of a dex like a cone, and if the bag is within the cone during the dex, that is a clean dex whether the cone is at an angle or perfectly straight up and down (like a road cone in use). I feel like that understanding of cleanliness, plus the blatant cleanliness of the reverse move, indicates that my move is clean.

Anyway, the title poses my question - if a move is clean in reverse, is it clean forward? (and, sub question, is my move clean?)

just some food for thought. Thanks for opening a post with such a weird title.

[Zac Miley]

well, the reverse of dyno isn't really swirling spinning, so if the trick you were attempting was swirling spinning I would say no, it is not clean. (If you were attemping reverse dynoing p whirl it is for sure clean )

There's a little more margin for error on the whirl, so I would probably say that one is clean.

It's an interesting concept, though. We could start testing the slurriness of stepping sets by seeing if they're really butterflies in reverse.

[mc]

zac, I'm with you, thanks for the post.

Would you agree that the opposite of what I said I was doing ("swirlingspinning", or both kind of at the same time) is the reverse of dyno?

[Zac Miley]

well, apparently it is the reverse of dyno, so yeah, if you're attempting dyno in reverse it's indisputably that.

really, the cleanliness of a trick you're doing is all about the mindset, no matter how you figure it out. That's why people have to say the name of the trick they're trying in sick 1. If you did this trick in a sick 1 I would have no idea how to judge it because I haven't seen it before. Luckily, you found a way to tell.

again, very interesting. I want to see it applied to more 'normal' tricks.

[Jazzkid]

OK....I identify a swirling spinning trick as clean if the bag goes above the foot and if the dex happens at the ankle , at the shoe laces is not clean. I feel that if the first trick in that video was taken from a different angle, like the one Matt ended up in when the bag was at its peak, then it appears to be a clean Swirling spinning trick even though it was set far away from the body. I might have a video to contribute to this..
I also have tested pulled stepping sets in reverse , but momentum plays a factor.

[SlashC]

I sometimes use this method to evaluate cleanliness. I think it has its merits but it also has some issues. One that I'll point out is that for a downtime dexterity once the bag has entered the cone the dex needs to be completed without the bag leaving the cone to be clean. On the other hand with an uptime set there is like a bit of a gap in time until the bag enters the cone (during this time the player can already have started the motion of the dex) then the dex is completed quite quickly as the bag enters the cone briefly and then exits upwards. For example say on a downtime illusion dex you complete some percentage of the dex and then while the bag is almost on your foot you complete the dex, but the bag has left the cone already. I would consider this unclean. However, if you watched the video in reverse it would probably look like a perfectly clean quantum set.

Also, I think there is a bit of a double standard in that uptime sets are allowed to be more thin than downtime dexterities. I have never once had someone tell me I have thin quantum sets, but I have had people tell me that my illusions are sometimes thin.

[Muffinman]

Actually when I saw you do it in the video before this thread, I thought it was gyro whirlwalk... so in that context, if it's a clean dyno in reverse maybe it is clean?

[mc]

After reading these responses, and talking with Anssi in PM a bit, I think the short answer to the question posed by me is "sometimes, but certainly not often enough for it to be a full indication of cleanliness". Rory, I think what you said about finishing the dex with the bag in the cone (which I clearly do not do on whirl) and about double standards is correct.

[Jeremy]

I recall a discussion with Ales Zelinka when he was in Australia (2004?) where he speculated that not only should reverse cleanliness reflect actual cleanliness, but "rewind" moves should look identical to the reverse in reverse. So for example blurriest should like identical to a janiwalker in reverse, you shouldn't be able to tell whether ripwalks are being filmed in reverse or not etc.

This was just speculations, so I don't know if he's very decided on this, and it's worth noting that we were discussing "good form" rather than if something is actually clean or not.

I've become convinced of the "cone" idea of dexes, and with that in mind it's hard to see how a trick could be clean in one direction through time, but "the" in the other direction. Stuff involving spins and osis is probably a little different.