Is footbag on the rise?

redshredz · Post by **redshredz** » 09 Nov 2010 12:43

Hiya,
This is a great thread, and one that needs to be talked about. More recently I have been getting people contacting me about the state of things.

Footbag is certainly in an interesting place right now. As I mentioned in the 'State of Freestyle Footbag' article, over my long years in footbag the sport has fluctuated greatly. The highest I have seen it at was during the 2002-2004 years. That was an explosion. It was a plateau after that, and after 2007 Worlds seemed to start dropping off. Now we arrive at this point, where the numbers appear to be much lower. This has to be taken in context, we are still larger than we were in most of the 90's. The strange thing about that however is that there are less clubs and tournaments than that time period. I think this is due to the internet rise; exposure is up with the web, but people don't need to find/form groups to learn and get better anymore. Thus, clubs are down, geographically sprinkled players are up. With less clubs, there are less organized events. One person freestyling mainly in their basement will have a tough time putting together a large event. I do also think the tough economic times (at least in the US) have slowed people from attending events, running events, or even playing. Priority kicks in when times are tough, no pun intended. The average freestyle player is not known for having a lot of cash anyway, thus things might be doubly tough right now.

Just yesterday in the Sole Purpose Group we called for a meeting to take place, regarding how we want to proceed in our local club. We still have a good size group of people that play, Portland seems to be the anomaly with that in relation to most of North America. That being said, right now we are in our down time as I call it, when attendance is lower during the off season. Keeping people rallied is important however, if you are lucky enough to have a club, it does take a group effort.

Speaking for myself, for a great deal of time I was solely focused on promoting the sport, no other main interests really. We are also at a point where some older generation promoters and organizers are moving on, and some new/fresh people are coming in working to promote the scene. I certainly welcome this. I respect and honor the people who fought for footbag for so long, and encourage the new people who want to promote to really go for it. This sport is not large to say the least, and we need everyone who wants to do something contributing. Everything helps for sure, activity is better than inactivity.

For me personally, I still care about the sport I have been with for so long now. Things are now a bit more of a balancing act for me however. As many people know I am wrapped up with the Street Fighter/fighting games thing at present (we just launched a new LLC running mobile tournaments), right now the scene is in a state of boom. I am watching how this is being handled, as I of course would like to apply what works in that scene to footbag. Aside from that I am involved with a company that teaches chess in after school programs, another worthy cause methinks. I have taken what I learned doing the footbag organization and applied them to these other things, and again now am studying how they are successful to apply back to our sport. My time is really divided now though, which is why I will most likely begin to hand the keys of Sole Purpose off to others in our local scene, most likely Nick Landes and crew. I will still play lynchpin at Fourkast, and in conjunction with a couple of other companies in the scene will mostly likely be pushing into apparel, as many people know by now. Not all of it will be solely focused on footbag, to be successful there has to be larger appeal. Anyway, I always say it is not a done deal until it is a done deal, so we'll see. This kinda sums up where footbag is right now. As my buddy said on chat yesterday, people are kinda wondering what is next. The sport definitely needs more hype right now, there has been a real lack of it this last year. Footbag seemingly has been in better times, people want to know where it is going to go from here. Hopefully up. My time is a little more limited now, but I still have love for the cause, and welcome anyone else who wants to be a part of our wonderful sport. It'll take the whole team to make it happen, so the more the merrier. It's nice posting up on modified again : )

F[uns]tylin' Eclectic · Post by **F[uns]tylin' Eclectic** » 09 Nov 2010 12:56

Around my small town back home, I got a good friend of mine (my age) who now goes to Ohio State, 1 senior in highschool, 1 junior in highschool, and two 13 or 14 year olds into footbag. All of them have Lavers and are pretty serious into the sport. Nick (Pasquar on the forum) is hitting his first 5 adds and kicking very often. Nick had no one to kick with in Ohio, sadly. Then I met Mike Angeski (also from Ohio) at East Coasts this year and he said he had no one to play with either, so I talked to Nick and apparently they lived within 15 minutes of eachother, so now they kick together along with Danny Petrick, who I saw also lived in Ohio and I hooked him up with their names. Corey is really kicking ass stringing around 10 contacts tiltless, Jackson, the senior, is stringing around 6 tiltless, Luis, one of the 13 or 14 year olds, is hitting sole stalls and pixie> toe bs. The other kid can do some inside stalls and toe stalls and atw's. And they told me that they've inspired some other kids at their school to get into it and one other kid that I haven't met is getting decent.

So total people who play semi-close around me: about 10

I think the key to getting people interested in footbag is to do it in public and be as welcoming as possible to people that ask you questions. And like Bob about how we all started in a circle. When people tell me "I could never do that" or "I can only hit the bag a few times" , I tell them, "You CAN do this, it just takes practice" or "You gotta start somewhere, we were all at your level at one point" I feel that the more encouraging you are about footbag, the more of a response you get from people.

Rieferman · Post by **Rieferman** » 09 Nov 2010 12:58

I don't participate in a lot of threads these days, but if I've got people like Red jumping in, I'll keep talking. Good to see you here Red

So let me regroup..

My hypothesis is: Past methods of promotion were not successful in creating sustainable growth. Therefore, just getting pumped up to be like we were... it won't work. SO... What is the new method?

One idea (to reiterate my comment on previous page) is to attack the perception that "I could NEVER do that?!?!". How do we get people past that hump?

Donovon · Post by **Donovon** » 09 Nov 2010 14:56

I wish I could answer that question ^. I think a lot of people around my area are a mix between thinking that and thinking they could probably get there eventually, but they dont want to put the time in. Its more like "Wow, you seriously spend hours doing that!?"
Being/Feeling like more a part of the community I think keeps people in footbag (what gets them into it is beyond me, since Im amazed at how many people dont even turn their heads at an outdoor tournament. Id stand jaw-dropped for hours, lol). Whether their ambitions are to be the best or not, if they really enjoy the people enough to make it to events, they will stick with footbag. A lot of people around like to play, and like playing more when other people show up. Solo shreds aren't for everyone.
Im really trying to latch onto the juggling community. Seriously think of how broad the term juggling is and all of the things jugglers do. Footbag isn't to different. I know this has been done in the past, but I think there is a strong overlap. And, along the theme of this discussion, most people to spend time juggling aren't burdened by the "how can I ever get that good?" issue. Somehow, if people see me playing footbag at a juggling event, it doesnt seem so impossible with the entire gym juggling 5+ props.
Somehow, that community has found a way to at least be more successful than where we are now so it may be another place to turn our heads to from time to time to see whats going on there.
~Donovon

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 09 Nov 2010 16:17

1. If the prize money at worlds was anything significant the level of play and number of players would go up. As much as you may like to play imagine if there was some actual prize money.
2. What were the past methods of promotion? Were these methods telling players to include "hacky sack" in the tags of their youtube videos? I can only think of two "large scale" times that footbag was involved in "mainstream" culture. Shes all that and modest mouse.
3. Is there an activity or sport that you see for the first time and say I can do that? Disregarding the ambitious thinking of young kids I dont think so. The first time you saw snowboarding half pipe did you think you could do that? Also what are the demographics that send out this "I can never do that attitude" From my experience it is mainly people that are over 45/50 and those arent the people that underground sports target.
4. Why do people care if footbag becomes popular? How do you benefit if footbag becomes popular? You can say you played footbag before it was popular?

5. Well I just read the whole thread. Small scale publicity will get a few people. The sport needs money! Everybody says "omg juggling is doing so well. there on espn and cnn. what about us we are like the same sport?" First of you have to pay $10 to use their footbag.org & modified.in To have more access I believe it is $100 and for full access and a lifetime membership I believe it is $200. I forget what the clear differences are but theyre paying and we are not and look at them. I would love to be able to watch the us open euros worlds etc on espn but yeah we would have to pay a lot.
If 300 footbag players donated 50 dollars you can do some serious advertising. They divide the advertisement section into two tiers umder and over 3k so... Imagine how much publicity a small advertisement on espn.com with a link to a live broadcast of worlds would bring.

david · Post by **david** » 09 Nov 2010 16:37

There is a lot of meat here to talk about, but I want to throw one more thing into the fire and then I'll try to cook some of the stuff above with my thoughts.

1) The level of play has never been higher. It has not effected the sport positively, some might say even negatively. Do people see Vasek and say "well, my ankles aren't like that, screw it"?

2) The community aspect is huge. Just this weekend a girl from where I work came by and saw the pizza party we have every Saturday at Steve's. She wants to kick around now with us because she has seen this cool little sub community that exists. I think this community aspect is why the New York Footbag Association is still strong, they are all great guys who hang out outside of footbag as well. How do we establish this community and bring new members into it?

3) Flipsider. How much impact did this presentation of the sport have? I know it was the key reason for me starting because it made footbag look cool. It had a team, profiles, cool shirts, etc. I would like to know thoughts on how connected the 2004 blow up and Flipsider's birth are.

4) If you had unlimited budget, what would you do to support footbag? I am interested in hearing what channels people view as most effective.

David

boyle · Post by **boyle** » 09 Nov 2010 20:36

With an unlimited budget, the very first thing I would do would be to start a world tour. This could be done on a more limited budget I think, but not to the level where it starts gaining interest.

I have been thinking a bit about this recently, I think a 9 event series would be good

3 North America, 3 Europe, 3 other.

The North American ones would be West Coast USA, East Coast USA, Canada

In Europe- Austria/Switz/Germany, Poland/Czech, Scandanavia

Other- South America, Australasia, Japan.

With your unlimited budget you would have no troubles flying people to the events, having big advertising campaigns and booking the best places.

With this tour, I would have a group of 15 travelling around to every event, with 5 wildcard places up for grabs. A similar system to that of surfing.

With this tour, you could go around a few days before, giving some lessons to those who would want to be involved.

I think expansion into other areas is the key in the next few years. Mainly south america and asia. With sepak takraw and a variety of shuttlecock games, there are already a lot of people with some kind of foot skills there.

In South America they are soccer mad and I am surprised it hasn't taken off more there. I'm moving to Chile next year, hopefully I can get something started there.

The main problem we have though, is that people will always think it's stupid, a waste of time, etc. That's the kind of perception we really have to avoid.

This is probably the best thread I have seen on Modified in a long time, and you can see the quality in the responses, there are some really well thought out response from some big names in the Footbag world.

Some people were talking about playing at skateparks regularly. I'm not so sure if this is a help or a hindrance. I have spent a lot of time playing around skateparks, and I have to say most people just look upon it as a waste of time.

I love the community of Footbag, working in a hostel, I'm really surprised I don't meet more people who are even just into having a bit of a kick around as a way to meet new people or whatever.

I think it's true as well, Red said (I think) that the geographically isolated player is on the rise, and the clubs are falling. I think this is very true. Even before, there were a lot of university clubs, that doesn't seem to be the case so much anymore.

I also 100% disagree that if Worlds had more prize money, more people would play.

This is a great topic, I really hope the discussion continues on it.

Nathan · Post by **Nathan** » 09 Nov 2010 21:29

Don't have too much time to write out a post, but there's something I want to add.

I know a bunch of us are the type to bounce around from hobby to hobby and practice uncommon sports and interests. Footbag is obviously an example. A lot of footbag players can juggle. A much higher percentage of footbag players can yo-yo than the among the avg. population. I know a lot of players skateboarded before learning hack.

There's a long list of sports/hobbies that footbag players also have been involved in. Why is that? I'd say primarily because we're the type to spend our free time "practicing things" rather than watching TV or even socializing.

The number of generally useless talents I have outnumbers all of my non-footbag friends' put together. I think there's a limited number of people who really have the mindset to learn to play footbag at a guiltless level.

But that not really where I want to go with this, because despite that, there are still way more people who could be exposed to footbag who aren't. But when I look at the way that I've been exposed to my numerous hobbies, I only picked up interest after repeatedly seeing other people practicing it.

Footbag was cool, but even after I saw it in person once I wasn't rushing off to buy lavers. Multiple hack circles, a few videos, and then finally seeing someone playing at a high level convinced me.

more recently, I started to longboard and the first time I saw one I didn't fall in love. It's almost like once I saw it enough it became a subconscious thing, and eventually it clicked.

With that said, it seems like the clue is to be able to expose those few people who might be interested multiple times. With a footbag playerbase as small as it is, that's hard to do. I guess play publicly, and maybe at a similar time/place and it might happen. And then when they inevitably search online, make sure we don't seem like douches.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 10 Nov 2010 06:38

Interesting thread. I haven't really organized my thoughts into a coherent whole, but here's a bunch of thoughts/responses.

1.

Footbagger007 wrote:What were the past methods of promotion? I can only think of two "large scale" times that footbag was involved in "mainstream" culture. Shes all that and modest mouse.

When I first arrived in Japan, the players were distributing well-edited footbag videos (Eli and Chad stuff) to shoe/skate shops. These shops would then show them on their screens in their stores, which eventually caught the eye of a VP for Pepsi, who then found us through the Japanese footbag website. Within a few months, Pepsi sponsored a massive campaign including Pepsi ads featuring footbag, and when you bought a bottle of Pepsi in a store it came with a footbag. The culmination of all this was the first footbag tournament in Asia, which Pepsi supported financially. First prize in routines was $1,000, and we flew in Sunil from the States to judge and do a demo. This was the biggest and most successful footbag promotion I've ever witnessed firsthand, and participated in.

2.

Footbagger007 wrote:Why do people care if footbag becomes popular? How do you benefit if footbag becomes popular? .

I'd like to have more people to play with. I've played footbag for 13 years, and probably 95% of that has been solo sessions. It's more fun to play with others, and if the sport were more popular it'd be easier to meet up to shred.

3. I think a valid point has been raised about the increase in geographically isolated players. Back when I started playing, the only way to learn about footbag and join the community was to find a local club. Nowadays, thanks to Modified and easy access to videos, it is easier for people to learn about the sport and join the community without having to physically meet up with a club. This isn't necessarily bad for the sport either, it's just different. It can be difficult to compare the state of the sport now to 2002, because in many ways the world is just different.

4. Promotion may be up or down, as may the number of clubs. That said, David is right that the level of footbag is higher than ever. Compare routines from 2008-2010, and then compare them to routines from 2002-2004. Now, every routine in Finals is well-choreographed and high difficulty. Just a few years ago, pretty much only the podium routines were like that.

F[uns]tylin' Eclectic · Post by **F[uns]tylin' Eclectic** » 10 Nov 2010 07:51

I agree, I always thought it would be cool if footbag were decently more popular and we would have designated footbag parks, kind of like a skate park, but players would go and meet up there whenever and sesh with whomever was there. Good way to meet some new friends to kick with.

Then on the other hand, I can't try to pretend I don't enjoy being part of something that is so underground that people think I play with socks when I tell them that I play footbag.

I do think we need to up our ante a little bit and promote the sport a little more. I have a volunteer gig doing a demo for some kids at a juvenile correctional facility in a few weeks. After the demo, I plan on trying to teach these kids how to do some basic tricks and stalls. I have a feeling this will go well, because the counselor who booked me said he's been trying to teach them how to "hackysack" but he's no good at it, yet they do show an interest.

After this, I want to see if I can do an "anti-drug" demonstration at my old highschool. I think they'll let me do it, because I remember one day we had an assembly, and they let freestyle bmx riders come in and do an anti-drug demonstration. Hopefully, if I get that going, there are plenty of young, open-minders in highschool, who already are interested in "hacky sack". Fingers crossed.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 10 Nov 2010 08:28

Someone was comparing juggling and footbag and the amount of money involved. My understanding is that the average juggler is much older than the average footbagger (usually equating higher income), as it's less physically demanding on parts of the body whose injury is generally associated with older age. Someone else made the point that footbaggers are generally very poor. While having more money in the sport might be beneficial, it may not be realistic to expect contributions from the average player.

In regards to a world tour [or just the potential for exposure of the sport], I think China should be mentioned. I suspect that there is a LOT of tappable talent on account of their shuttlecock [and soccer] culture (http://modified.in/footbag/viewtopic.ph ... 01&start=0), which also speaks for their general acceptance and appreciation of this kind of "useless talent" activity. They also have the largest population of any country in the world (over a billion more than the U.S.A.), which would be a valuable asset in targeting new players.

DimitriFrazao · Post by **DimitriFrazao** » 10 Nov 2010 09:18

I'm a newcomer myself and I can say that footbag information is very cryptic and hard to find. There are tons of stuff out there, but is not so easy to understand it when you're starting.

You have to be really interested to make the time investment to find and organize all that information scattered on modified and other websites.
I'm sure this problem makes many newcomers to give up at an early age.

Imo a clean and organized website dedicated to promote, support and teach new players would help a lot.
Something with well written descriptions to guide a player step by step, but supported by videos like Anssi to show how it works.

Illustrations and diagrams would also help to get the idea of basic moves up to more complex tricks.
I know there are a lot of that out there. But I think it would be nice if it was just all together, in perfect order and easy to read and understand.

If anyone is interested in making that website I'll be volunteering right away. I can't kick well, but I could help editing videos and doing the illustration. Anyone interested?

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 10 Nov 2010 09:54

It should have a catchy name too, more related to the sport itself...and maybe a non-profit designation, like ".org" so people know it's a sport and not a business.

Laroche · Post by **Laroche** » 10 Nov 2010 10:32

It should also make footbag look cool.

Nathan · Post by **Nathan** » 10 Nov 2010 10:58

Summation of the last three posts -- we need flipsider 2.0, don't we?

Fade2black · Post by **Fade2black** » 10 Nov 2010 11:45

Hey guys... I find it fantastic that a lot of us care enough about the sport to contribute to this thread.

I find every topic discussed above in line with conversations I had at worlds with just about everyone I could find.

When we started shredglobal.com we were hoping it would be able to fill some of the void left by flipsider. Although the traffic is considerable, we have seen that the site has not fulfilled that legacy... Not even close.

In response to this issue, Me, Barrett N, with support from anssi and penske, launched playfootbag.org in order to effectively show progression from total beginner up through intermediate. We are still fine tuning the site, but hopefully it offers enough instructional content to give learning players consolidated information. Playfootbag.org will hopefully coincide with the project X from worlds to get as much footbag data on the net as possible.

In response to the money issue. I am hoping that the $500 freestyle season will answer whether money on a smaller level will motivate people to play. With sponsorship from freedom, footbag, and hania, the prizes have gotten rather large, and I hope to see a healthy turnout from the community.

When talking about where we are with the community, i tend to agree with everything above. I think our best bet is to show it off to the masses, presenting it to as many people possible in demo form (beginning and advanced tricks). If the majority is right in deciding that only certain people will be drawn to the sport, then it promoters responsibilities to make it a accessible as possible, in hopes of reaching as many of those people as possible.

Sorry for the rant, but 2 monsters and a passion for the future of the sport took control of me!

DimitriFrazao · Post by **DimitriFrazao** » 10 Nov 2010 11:54

1-Shouldn't be intimidating. Don't have Top players performing 7 adds in the front page.
It's beautiful for a medium to experienced player, but ultra intimidating for a beginner.

People playing 1-2 (maybe 3) adds is easier to understand and more welcoming.

2- Having a variety of examples to prove that anyone can do it.
Make people understand that it doesn't matter your age, gender, physic or anything else.

3-Make a well organized and efficient step by step process that anyone anywhere can pick up and learn the basics. In other words... get people hooked right away.

4-Minimalist look. Simple and easy to navigate. Well written, direct and short description that won't confuse of hold back a newcomer.

EDIT: Wow. I posted at the same time as Fade2Black. I looks like I'm criticizing his website, but I was just writing ideas for a website

Just coincidence.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 10 Nov 2010 12:57

I think it's important for a good footbag website to LOOK GOOD, and to have someone in charge who is capable of at least understanding design. From a purely constructive point of view, the playfootbag website is incredibly ugly, and I can't look at it enough to find out what it has to say. That's something that Eli had with Flipsider that I don't think I've seen in another footbag website ever (except that site that Cod posted a bit back). Footbag.org looks like it's still in the 70s and that look is really repelling. I know looks don't matter to everyone, but I still think it makes a big difference. If you want to be taken seriously you should look professional.

F[uns]tylin' Eclectic · Post by **F[uns]tylin' Eclectic** » 10 Nov 2010 13:48

It feels like, to play footbag, you have to be pretty optimistic and open minded. Open-minded to even try the sport and optimistic like The Little Engine That Could and keep picking that bag off the ground as many times as it takes.

One problem lies here... younger kids and people in general are rarely optimistic and/or open-minded.

EDIT: I really liked playfootbag.org. It reminds me of all the easy-to-access videos flipsider used to have. And best of all... playfootbag.com has reintroduced me to the VERY video that exposed me to my first sighting of freestyle footbag:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrW_Ha1l ... r_embedded#![/youtube]

A friend of mine in 5th grade pulled this video up on a school computer during indoor recess one day and I can't tell you how much this inspired me. I have been trying to search/stumble upon this video for a good handful of years and I finally found it through this site! A little bit after my exposure to this video, I ran into a footbag player at a playground that came up while some friends and I were hacking. This video should also be on the front page of playfootbag.com

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 10 Nov 2010 16:07

david wrote: 1) The level of play has never been higher. It has not effected the sport positively, some might say even negatively. Do people see Vasek and say "well, my ankles aren't like that, screw it"?

I think by the time I found out Vasek had natural crank I could already hit some moves. Then again my crank is just as good so maybe it wasnt obvious to me. The level of play is at its highest point but there can be more elite players. How many people "really" had a chance at winning worlds? Id say 7.

@ C-Fan
Wow! I had no idea about that. Large scale events like that are what need to happen more often.

Also geographically isolated players may be more common now and a geographically isolated player is less likely to stick around. In the thread "where are they now" that was some guys reason for not playing.

One thing that really helped when I was just starting was david clavens clipper tutorial. I had a really hard time with the footwork. Really detailed videos like that should be more common. Quality videos that provide things to drill and practice.

The main way footbag would grow would be if it attained the name "hacky sack"

I have always thought that if the move nickname list contained a video of every move that would be awesome but nobody quits or plays because of that.

World tour? How can you have a world tour if there is no money in the sport? Footbag is not a job.